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Time it happens, Fire Phoenix guy, this one-eyed swordswoman's gonna outskill your boy!

I strongly have the『intention』to hurt you a little, the gravitational pull of my fate swallows you.

It mention fate on text, but the effect doesnt look like fate manip.
 
I don't have time to respond to the full comment at this point in time, but I do wanna bring up one of your more fundamental assumptions. What makes you think probability manip is inherently linked to fate? I would have thought your experience with Medaka Box and abilities like Contradictory Conjunction would have shown you otherwise. Do you regard CC as something linked to Fate as well? I honestly see Musahi's creation of new possibilities as something in line with that, although obviously not as brain numbingly paradoxical. I don't think accausality would allow you to be immune to CC, but what do you think?

Musashi may have Fate manip but I'm not sure the creation of new possibilities is in and of itself Fate manip, since it seems more in line with what Kojiro does (although not multi-dimensional refraction, obviously)
 
Possibility is not directly fate but it is possible futures. In other words how many paths of fate there can be. CC is purely probability manip. Because it manifests the result with the lowest outcome. It basically increases the chance of a low chance possibility. It increases the chance of that possibility but it manipulates probability.
 
Musashi can effect possible outcomes on top of just possible futures. Musashi and Kojiro had transcended the multiverse, and time, yet both of them were still able to create possibilities
 
Anyway @Iap with this can we call the "hax" debate concluded and hop onto the skill debate?

So conclusions Musashi's possibility hax wouldn't work no matter which way you slice it (his type 4 covers all) whereas for his hax they're not gonna make much of a difference in the fight. And if her NP can somehow counter death hax im fine with settling for that, not a big deal.
 
I think we can put it on hold at the very least, but I'm not entirely convinced that her ability is limited to just manipulating futures. Musashi's abilities are able to work on beings that even stand outside of the bounds of space and time, along with the beings who stand outside the system which decides what futures are possible and not.

Sure, let's go for it
 
I mean, I would like if you could lay out most of their skill feats that u find the most impressive or notable, and aren't shit like his recursive skill feat. I would start by saying that she scales above Lancelot and Raikou, users of Eternal Arms Mastery, who have gained this skill via the surpassing of everyone else in their Era in skill, including users of Imperial Privilege, who can learn basically any martial art or skill set they want on a whim, with the higher end users of it being able to use them at the level of a master of the craft.

Raikou has their Era in line with Rider (Red Hare), who is able to use every single martial art there is, and will always have a martial art to respond to any given situation, and has even mastered combat within the air and water. This includes situations he has straight up never experienced before, so if you caught him in some random situation like the vacuum of space, he would still have a form of martial art to fight effectively there.

Eternal Arms Mastery users have reached such a state of mastery that their Mind, Body, and Technique/Skill have perfectly merged, and their technique has been ingrained into every facet of their body. Even when insane to the point of not being able to form a proper thought, they can still fight just as well as if they had a clear mind. You could give them all the mental illnesses you can think of and it wouldn't interfere with their combat at all. Lancelot (one of the EAM users) is so skilled that he gained the ability to pick up basically any object that he views as a weapon and use it as if he had trained with it his whole life. His Noble Phantasm, A Knight Does Not Die with Empty Hands, which was sublimated from this allows him to enhance them to the level of a D-rank Noble Phantasm and even allows him to sieze weapons from he enemies, and although the latter two effects are obviously more effects that came with the legend, the ability to use these weapons effectively is all his skill. He could pick up a stappler, chopsticks, a rubber band, a pair of glasses, a tree branch, Guns (keep in mind, he's a knight from medivel times), a fighter jet, etc. and use all of them perfectly for combat.

Oh, and don't worry about Ikki's power copying feats. Izo has the ability to copy any sword technique or fighting style he sees at a glance. Granted, this is limited to "anti-unit" still but that just means he isn't gonna fire a massive Dragon Ball Z style beam attack, nor can he copy the properties of the weapons his enemies use themselves, obviously. However, even he cannot copy the sword techniques of Musashi and Kojiro.

Someone else who Kojiro/Musashi naturally surpass as they have surpassed the bounds of human limitations, is Hozoin. The Lancer of Purgatorio who's noble phantasm, which is just his raw skill and technique btw, is able to cope and repel any technique or attack he encounters within the Nasuverse (obviously he isn't gonna be repelling the incineration of humanity from Goetia, but almost anything else is up for grabs), including basically any of the wierd ass weapons, most OP forms of magecraft, and extensive techniques, he can repel and then immediately follow with a counter attack. Oh btw, it doesn't matter if he has never seen it before. Geronimo's AoE Scorch the Earth Sun Magecraft? Nada. Billy the Kid's ability to slow down time to the point that he will always have time to respond to an enemies attack and line up a shot with time to spare? Gone. The Zabaniya techniques of the Hassan (You can find basically all of them on False Assassi's page)? No good. Oh, and speaking of False Assassin, she was able to replicate the techniques of her predecessors from as little as rumors, and was skilled enough to do shit like modify her body to make a third arm. Musashi and Kojiro surpass her in skill as well.

I think this is a good start, but I'll toss in a few other examples of people they naturally surpass. Nightingale is a skilled enough Nurse that she pull a Scar Dead with raw skill, and can open any old wounds a person has that wasn't perfectly healed with a single motion, even while under the effect of Mad Enhancement which severly cloud her mind and ability to think rationally. Jacob's Limbs users are masters of a divine martial art, of which masters are able to take on an entire legion of High Class Divine Spirits on their own. The Riding Skill is incredibly common in fate, in which anyone above about a C rank can use any vehicle or steed except for shit like a Dragon, and this is considered a pretty fodder skill by Fate standard.

Alright, let's see what Ikki can do.
 
Before i argue all of this. As i've stated many times before, "being more skilled than each individual =/= being more skilled than the composite version".

So being more skilled than those guys, doesn't mean being more skilled than someone who has all of those skills at the same time. Similar to how a Wing Chun master may be more skilled than a boxer, a karate master and a muai thai master. But he's not more skilled than a dude who is a master of all 3.
 
In the case of Kojiro and Musashi tho, that is the case. It is still theoretically possible to master all of these arts and still be considered within the bounds of human skill, but Musashi and Kojiro are at a skill level surpassing even that. You could master the spear stances of Hozoin, master the ability to use any weapon you pick up as if you had trained with it your whole life, perfectly merge your mind, body, and technique, attain a mastery of medical arts to the extent you can out perform nightingale, you could hypothetically master every single martial art there is, and even master every form of magecraft, all while still being within the reach of having human skill. But Musashi and Kojiro are beyond even that

If it comes to it, I'll get into the point of Kojiro reaching the level of True Magic, something that is supposed to be unattainable within the nasuverse.
 
You missed my point. None of those guys are skilled enough "on their own". If there is no one to basically have the composite of everything yet still be below Musashi then the scaling can't happen. She just scales above everyone, not everyone combined.

Nobody who has any of this techniques on their own can't be called beyond human. There is nothing to say that all of these combined would be below Musashi.

Not to mention most of that would come from her "skill" of possibilities. Which would trash all of these composites. Same for Kojiro's true magic. But those are out of this fight by virtue of being already resisted. So without the "skill" that surpasses time and space and does all of that which we discussed up to this point, how "skilled" is musashi?
 
The only person they surpass in skill who you couldn't add to the composite is Saber Emperio, but that's because he is like barely bellow them, and right on the border of attaining his fully mastered Suigetsu. Also, obviously not True Magic users
 
Firephoenixearl said:
You missed my point. None of those guys are skilled enough "on their own". If there is no one to basically have the composite of everything yet still be below Musashi then the scaling can't happen. She just scales above everyone, not everyone combined.
Nobody who has any of this techniques on their own can't be called beyond human. There is nothing to say that all of these combined would be below Musashi.

Not to mention most of that would come from her "skill" of possibilities. Which would trash all of these composites. Same for Kojiro's true magic. But those are out of this fight by virtue of being already resisted. So without the "skill" that surpasses time and space and does all of that which we discussed up to this point, how "skilled" is musashi?
Click to expand...
I think you missunderstand what I'm saying. Think of it as a qualitative difference of skill. If a dead apostle or someone who could live for an indefinite amount of time spent themselves devoted to mastering all of this and he had the talent, he could master all of these and still be considered at a human level of skill. However, assuming he was not as talented at Kojiro, he still could not master the ability to use Kojiro's longsword effectively, as that is literally impossible for someone within the bound of human skill to do.

No, there are people who have the ability to use all forms of magecraft and are still within the bounds of human skill, same with red hair. This is still "possible" to do, but the level of skill they reach isn't a level you are supposed to be able to reach.

Don't forget that the hax and skill go hand in hand. They got their hax because of their absurd levels of skill. Even if you took away Musashi's mystic eyes, you would still theoretically be able to perform the same feats she did. If you did create a composite "human level" Nasuverse character, they would not be able to perform the skill feats that Kojiro or Musashi do.
 
Hell, this is almost certainly the case with Kojiro mastering a level reaching True Magic in particular. It's the goal of basically every single mage in the Nasuverse, stacking knowledge and experience on knowledge and experience by sharing their craft from generation to generation just to find a way to reach The Swirl of The Root. You are supposed to need a connection to the root to be able to attain True Magic, yet Kojiro is so bullshit levels of skill that he managed to attain this phenomenon of his own skill, without reaching the root. You could literally make a composite Nasu mage, and there are a few characters who are something like this, and they would still not be on the level of what they call a True Magician
 
Isn't it more of a "possibility cutting and whatever she does is on it's own better than literally anything else nasuverse can offer" instead of "even without her beyond human skill, she is still better than everyone else combined".

Example if i have a gun, im on my own stronger than any martial artist combined. Nothing can touch me, however, without that, there is no guarantee i can still do the same.

Or if we need it in skill. If i master some weird ass monk martial arts that lets me shoot actual kamehameha with skill. I am beyond the realm of human and more skilled than everyone else, however, doesn't mean that if somehow i can't use my kamehameha, i will still be beyond everyone else in terms of skill.
 
Other than Yagyu, no. And I'm saying this out of my own belief and inability to actually conceive of a way her full form ability to create new possibilities could be replicated via skill completely devoid of hax, but I believe that Nasu intended for it to still be achievable via skill. She got her fate hax due to her ability to evaluate every possible outcome, looking at each, and then discarding those that do not suit her, until she finds one that works, and pulls her entire being into doing the exact right means to achieve it. It's more like "Even without the hax that comes with her beyond human skill, she would surpass everything else in the nasuverse that can be achieved via skill."

Note that at no point am I trying to scale Musashi or Kojiro based on the metaphorical ability to "have a gun," I am instead scaling them due to the ability to "get a gun" through raw skill, and since every single other person on the planet, even if someone had theoretically mastered every single form of skill there is, they couldn't conjure a "gun" into existence. Even if they didn't have the "gun" that came due to their absurd skill, then would still be able to do basically the same thing as the "gun" and, to continue out this metaphor, create bullet holes in people via their fingers at a distance somehow. Swap out "gun" for the ability to shoot a kamehameha for the latter example you gave
 
@Iap

What i mean with "taking away the gun" is ikki being unaffected by her hax. So in this case she doesn't have the ability to put a hole in Ikki.

Similarly saying "she will use her fingers to poke holes into people" isn't a feat of knowing all of their stuff combined, just being in a level beyond them with a certain ability which can only be gained with skill.
 
Well yeah. Even if you took away the gun, she would still be able to create similar effects with her skill alone. But that's not the point, she gained her hax due to her absurd skill, and even in the absence of the hax, she still far over surpasses every person I mentioned, even if you combined them into someone who had mastered all of them. Although, again, the only person you couldn't add to the composite would be Yagyu, but everyone else on a composite "human level" nasu character, Kojiro and Musashi would still out skill.

Her fate hax is not what puts her above everyone else. The fate hax is a symptom, not the sickness. Just to be clear, I'm not claiming she has all their stuff combined, but what I am saying is that even if you removed all hax and put her against the composite "human level" nasu character, she would still win in a battle of skill (although many of these arts are very impressive but not combat applicable but you know what I mean).
 
Maybe this will help, if I explain this from how I interpret Nasu's writing regarding these characters in Shimosa. The hax that the sword saints get are all a literary tool to explain how their skills and martial arts work. Nasu has never been very good at writing martial arts, so, in my interpretation, he went with these hax abilities to work as something similar to a metaphor or tool to explain how their mind sets and techniques work. As a metaphor for Kojiro's absurd level of swordsmanship that it would take for a person to manage to cut a flying swallow several times in a single movement, he gave him multi-dimensional refraction to show that this is a skill feat that is basically impossible. Instead of him just doing a fancy motion to cut a target three times in one slash, he does the overlapping of possibilities. To give a metaphor for Musashi's absurd level of calculations and combat prowess of being able to come up with even the most absurd answers to a problem, like intentionally showing up late to piss her enemy off, attacking them with an paddle, and positioning herself so that the sun would blind her enemy, she can see all possibilities and choose the one she wants, eliminating all others. The latter part of her ability, in my interpretation, is supposed to be a metaphor for her ability to be so single minded that she can perform no extra actions and bring about exactly what she wants. Musashi has her invulnerability because you need a certain mindset to even land an attack on her, and raw skill does not cut it.

Now, I'm obviously not claiming that they don't have these hax. They do, it's just that their hax is a writing device to explain how their absurd levels of skill works as a mindset. In their final clash, in my interpretation, it's a metaphor for 2 incredibly opposing mindsets, and the two people who are at the absolute top of their craft being a complete unique experience and sight to behold. One person has the ability to know exactly what needs to happen to win, while also having the absurd mindset to being that about with no room for error, and the other had a mindset about excepting a that there are a multitude of ways to win a battle, while exploiting all of these at once. Both of these people's abilities are meant to bring about an inescapable outcome, and it is the 2 ways that their methods interact that creates the mind bending paradox that happens at the climax of Shimosa. They transcended reality because they have both given up basically everything else in pursuit of the mastery of their swordsmanship, and their clash completely gripped their entire being, to the point that nothing else matters to them.

I hope this makes sense, and just to be clear, this is what I got from the Shimosa chapter, and I'm sure there will be those that disagree with me.
 
The reason i don't like to start the debate is, Ikki has so many skills he fairs better as an answer to anything the opponent can do rather than listing all of his feats. What puts Ikki's "copy" above normal is he literally creates a style from scratch and perfecting it. Besides it also matters on what they can copy from a style and on how much info and time.

Not all martial arts are all that useful in combat. And Musashi definitely doesn't scale to knowing stuff like dagger arts or bow arts as a swordmaster. Ikki in sword arts alone knows more than people knew existed (long forgotten styles).

Ikki fights unconscious too, and i remember there was something about something similar with the mind becoming one with the blade, will need to recheck for the actual quote though. But he can fight normally while being actually unconscious though.

That's just cus he's not skilled enough. The quality of what he copies also matters, similar to how Garou can copy most styles easily, but he can't replicate Bang's style.

It depends on how the "repelling" works. And false Assassin's ability to replicate from rumors, ikki did the same, a lot of styles he copied were just forgotten in old documents that were stopped being taught. Though growing a 3rd arm is not skill unless it has at least some form of explanation for at least how it was supposed to be done.

Ikki's magic control (which is basically just skill at using magic) is superior to Shizuku Kurogane who can purify water at an atomic level in less than seconds, she can also completely reform her own body doing the same thing. He should also be superior to Kiriko Yakushi who's a pretty darn busted healer (better than Shizuku) she could restore someone's legs by manipulating his body so that it divides just enough mass from the upper body to restore the legs. While ikki can't do this in the form of healing, his control is better than this.

And these are just basic stuff without going into things like Trackless Step, Edel sword style, perfect vision, off season sakura etc.
 
I'm certain Ikki isn't better at magic control than Shizuku considering that's canonically his one flaw. That he's sh*t at magic.
 
May be like his bad luck, its a weaknees that solely exist to make ikki seem more impressive. Has low magic skill but is still incredibly skilled with magic...
 
Yeah I also didn't understand that. I was always quite skeptical when it comes to his profile, but supergenius? Quite a wank
 
The real cal howard said:
Just saw that supergenius is listed as his intelligence.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Click to expand...
Yeah i forgot to swap that to Extraordinary Genius a lil while ago, my bad on that. Feel free to change that if ya want.

Also cal, Ikki is shit at "amount" of magic, not control. It's precisely his magic control that makes him have the biggest stat amp in the series.
 
Then it's not a weakness earl, he has low magic but can stat amp better then anyone else with magic. Its not a weakness when it doesn't cause him any problems and leads him to creating a potent technique that's better then anyone else's stat amps. Its an inconvenience as others underestimate him and causes him personal strife but it could hardly be considered a weakness
 
SpookyShadow said:
Yeah I also didn't understand that. I was always quite skeptical when it comes to his profile, but supergenius? Quite a wank
Click to expand...
It was my bad actually, i thought that Shizuku's 7x10^27 calculations on her deathbed was rated as supergenius.
 
Supergenius is when you can create a reality warping machine with a fork, some electricity and piece of wood. Many characters who just can do impossible mathematics and surpass supercomputers are just Extraordinary Geniuses.
 
SpookyShadow said:
Edelweiss also got that
Click to expand...
Yeah people scaling above Shizuku's feat i mentioned have supergenius currently which needs to be downgraded, i accept my mistake there. Iirc it's only these:

Ikki Kurogane

Stella Vermillio

Edelweiss

Shizuku Kurogane

Kiriko Yakushi

These are the only ones who are shizuku and above level of magic control i forgot how many of these guys have the SG rating but needs to be EG. Though when i upgraded them i only upgraded ikki and edel apparently, so time to "nerf".
 
Just to make sure, the comment you made is supposed to respond to my initial comment on the skill scaling of Musashi, right? I just wanna make sure, because it seems to match up pretty close but I'm not sure due to it seemingly being in a different order
 
After read all of the comments here i gotta say...this is solid incon match

So yeah, i go with 682 want to join (a.k.a Incon) for Ia and Earl circling reasons above

Next time throw Ikki against Musashi who this time is in her Summer Berserker class
 
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