Tiering System Revisions - Part 4 (Staff Only)

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, I am relatively indifferent regarding this. I'd have to talk about it with Aeyu off-site though, so we can make sure to be on the same page here.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Nevertheless, I still think verses should first be analyzed using the arrangement i proposed as a basis before the 1-A stuff of the system is officially applied. Matt's suggestion can come in handy if there aren't that many characters in a single tier or something. We'll wait and see.

Anyways, since the few questions about Dimensions seem to have been answered and no one seems to have anything else to say, I... believe in can move on from debating the system proper now, yeah. Unless someone wants to discuss what should happen to the smaller things that appear as a consequence of it existing, like Irrelevant Speed and whatnot.

 

[Antvasima]

We should probably talk about irrelevant Speed and Lifting Strength, yes.

 

[Maxnumb231]

speed tiering and other stuff should be on its own discussion imo

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Malomtek]

Define Irrelevant speed and strength as moving over/moving/lifting "spaces" of 1-A size.

Done.

 

[Doctor_129]

i have a question.the old system have two kind of 1a

There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained.

i want to know what will happen to these character´╝êsuperiority over the concept of dimensions）´╝îwil they all be downgrade´╝ƒdowngrade to what´╝ƒ

 

[DontTalkDT]

We should probably talk about irrelevant Speed and Lifting Strength, yes.

I think speed can basically the same. Though we might want to change the wording a bit to reflect that not every 1-A has Irrelevant speed by default, but only those that can move beyond the concept of time and distance on any dimensional level.

Lifting Strength is generally difficult, since the entire concept makes very limited sense on that level. I think best we can say is that it is the level of lifting structures whichs destruction would put one at the 1-A level (aka lifting outerversal structures).

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

Thank you for the help. I think that seems to make sense.

 

[Agnaa]

What should be done to the other abilities with 1-A versions, such as Immortality, Regenerationn, and Conceptual Manipulation?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not sure as the first two, as I don't really understand them.

For Conceptual manipulation I believe we can simply rewrite the second sentence to be "These forms are beyond all spatial and temporal dimensional constructs and all of reality merely "participates" in these concepts."

The point of that type of concept was, IMO, always less about being specifically 1-A (in size, power or anything) and more about being non-spatiotemporal "objects" defining of the entirety of reality.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems to make sense to me. Thanks for helping out.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

To be fair, I am a bit warry of Type 1 and 2 Conceptual Manipulation being a thing under the new system. Type 2 is a lowball which assumes Platonic Concepts exist in some higher spatiotemporal level which transcends reality but doesn't exist above spacetime entirely, due to the way the old system worked, with this characteristic being reserved to Type 1.

However, since the new system allows for fully (conceptually or not) aspatiotemporal stuff that stands below 1-A, this would leave Type 2 moot, and a character would only have Type 1 if the verse itself states Platonic Concepts or equivalent ideas are beyond all extensions of hierarchies, as opposed to just randomly stating they transcend reality, which is... really rare and without additional context only holds if you adopt the logical highball, which would only apply to Plato's own ideas, and even then only because you can't apply things such as NLF to our reality.

So, yeah, Platonic Concepts may be subject to heavy nitpicking at the very least, under the new system.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Type 2 has nothing to do with how the old system works.

It has something to do with the way fiction treats concepts.

Owari no Chronicle is the perfect example. They have concepts that work exactly as concepts should, but each universe can have its own concepts just like it can have its own laws of nature. To that comes that they are locally bound to their universes: If you materialize them and then take them away from the universe, the universe ceases to exist due to now lacking concepts.

Basically concepts in fiction are often kinda semi-spatial, in that they aren't really things that are within spacetime, but are still somewhat bound to certain structures of a verse.

Type 1 concepts on the other side wouldn't have such restrictions. (Though they could be overcome with non-spatial higher levels)


As for type 1 concepts having to proof that they are above all spatiotemporal hierarchies: To be honest, in my opinion they basically always should have had to proof that. Type 1 concepts are a quite extreme claim, in my opinion. Considering that type 1 concept destruction would have made you 1-A in the current system, that type should have proof standards on the level of making a character 1-A already.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It does, though. As far as I know, Type 2 was created to not highball verses into oblivion because of random mentions of Platonic Concepts, since, in the old system, conceptually transcending space and time is enough for 1-A, as far as the formal presentation of the tier goes. So, Type 2 Concepts are basically supposed to be watered down Platonic Ideals that don't really transcend space and time as a whole and have their influence restricted to however big their verse is, while Type 1 ones are supposed to be those who actually conceptually transcend spacetime and are 1-A regardless of how big their verse is.

However, due to this specific detail (completely transcending the concepts of Space and Time being enough for 1-A) no longer being necessarily valid under the new system, Type 1 Concepts aren't necessarily 1-A under it, either, unless the verse which they come from blatantly states they are beyond all extensions of size and hierarchy.

So, yeah, that's why I am a bit "myeh" about there being a distinction between those two under the standards I am pushing for.

 

[Antoniofer]

Maybe its just me, but dividing Concept Manipulation into types seems its kinda unecessary (in general dividing powers into types its a bad idea). I believe that now transcending all concepts make you 1-A, isn't it?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

No. Transcending all concepts is too vague to be 1-A.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I actually agree with Antonio there.

 

[The_Causality]

I mean there is still different kind of concept, such as Subjective Concept which exist only according to people's perception to the world. A thread about that will probably be welcome.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, better leave concept-talk which doesn't have to do with 1-A or dimensional stuff out of this thread.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Maybe its just me, but dividing Concept Manipulation into types seems its kinda unecessary (in general dividing powers into types its a bad idea).

I have to disagree with that. A type 4 concept and a type 2 concept have virtually nothing in common and neither does the abilies that are involve manipulating these types.

 

[DontTalkDT]

...

I believe I was part of the reason that type was created. I think brought up roughly the prior point on concepts often being local at the times we were debating concept manip.

Type 2 being local concepts and type 1 being those that actually govern all spacetime regardless of scale seems to make sense to me as a distinction. It's just that the requirements for type 1 got harder now.

Though if we are going too off-topic we can continue this debate at a later time.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Type 2 being local concepts and type 1 being those that actually govern all spacetime regardless of scale seems to make sense to me as a distinction. It's just that the requirements for type 1 got harder now.

That seems fair enough, I always had the impression that the only distinction between Type 1 and 2 Concepts was that the former are 1-A and the latter aren't.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

i have a question.the old system have two kind of 1a

There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained.

i want to know what will happen to these character´╝êsuperiority over the concept of dimensions）´╝îwil they all be downgrade´╝ƒdowngrade to what´╝ƒ

That depends. If a character is 1-A just because they are said to transcend the dimensions of their verse (on a conceptual level or not) with no further context or elaboration, then they are most certainly going to be downgraded to whatever is most fitting (if their verse has 4 dimensions, then they are going to be High 2-A, if 5, then Low 1-C, and so on).

But, if the verse specifies that they are beyond any possible extensions of spatiotemporal size, in the sense that they will always be greater than any finite (or countably infinite) number of dimensions, even if the setting of their verse doesn't have that many, then they can remain 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly doubt that a lot of fictions are that specific, and thought that we previously agreed that characters that qualitatively transcend the concepts of space and time would remain 1-A.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

There are very few 1-A verses without infinite dimensions, as far as I know, but they do exist. Masadaverse is one of them, and Tenchi Muyo as well if we go by what Sera believes.

I had already said that characters who are just stated to be "lel beyond the [concept of] time and space" aren't really going to qualify for 1-A any longer. They can be this high if they are specified to transcend all forms of space and time or have some other feat that is logically equivalent to that. Not that this particularly matters anyways, since 99% of the characters who are currently 1-A are this high due to transcending infinite hierarchies, as opposed to qualitative transcence over concepts or whatever.

What I agreed with was that 1-A characters are beyond all normal conceptions of time and space, as portrayed in most of fiction, not that any character who fulfills that criteria is also 1-A. I even specified this in the previous threads.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not familiar with Masadaverse, but I think that (and I was under this impression from private conversations with you/Aeyu) Tenchi Muyo will still be outerversal.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah that's what I said.

 

[Agnaa]

It sounded to me like you were intending to downgrade Masadaverse and Tenchi Muyo. First paragraph sounded like you were referring to what's currently there, not what would be there after the downgrades. Then this quote:

I had already said that characters who are just stated to be "lel beyond the [concept of] time and space" aren't really going to qualify for 1-A any longer. They can be this high if they are specified to transcend all forms of space and time or have some other feat that is logically equivalent to that.

Sounded like they'd no longer qualify for 1-A. Especially since most verses that have "lel beyond time and space" already aren't 1-A. It's not like it'd be a change for a character beyond the time and space of a 3-A verse to not be 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that it should probably be fine then.

 

[Malomtek]

So is everything set up now?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I believe so, yeah.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Ok then, can we close this and we start on revising the profiles. Just don't make it staff only for character revisions

 

[Maxnumb231]

no ultima will need to have the tiering system blog to replace the old one to have better and indepth explanation. so its not completely over

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, there's that. I'll make it when I have the time and stop being a lazy bum

 

[Antvasima]

How should we handle immeasurable Lifting Strength?

 

[Malomtek]

With masses that measure not strictly in higher dimensions, but higher levels of infinity in general.

 

[Malomtek]

Example: A multiverse of seven layers of existence, each layer being more than countably infinitely greater than the other, is presumed to have more mass than a simple infinite universe.

Because size scales and all that.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that might be a good idea.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, just have Immeasurable Lifting Strength be an uncountably infinite difference in scale compared to lower tiers, which would be equated to transcendental beings on higher planes and whatnot.