Tiering System Revisions - Part 4 (Staff Only)

[Ultima_Reality]

Hopefully the final part of these revisions, continuing directly off of this thread. I won't waste time listing any Options or whatever and summarizing the proposals here, as they can be seen here, though I can explain them with better wording if needed. Anyways, firstly I'll quote a post of mine from the last thread:

Not really saying we should suddenly start analyzing every single 1-A verse in a single thread. Just noting that it may serve as a place for we to discuss how we are gonna do that and figure out the kinks of it. And to be perfectly honest, it seems like the best solution to me, since the logic behind the proposed system has already been debated to death, most of the original options are essentially dead and buried, and from what I've gathered, the people who actually gave their inputs and care to a small degree are mostly fine with it, with a few exceptions here and there which have been already addressed (As far as I remember anyways).

If you deem this to be a bad idea, I guess we can just default to this for convenience's sake, and then decide to start analyzing verses based on it. That way people can evaluate them properly using a solid ground and tweak it a bit if anything of note happens:

High 1-B = Countably infinite dimensions / layers = N

Low 1-A = Uncountably infinite dimensions / layers at their lowest bound = P(N)

1-A = Abstract settings with size roughly analogous to further uncountable sets of layers = P(P(N)), P(P(P(N))), P(P(P(P(N)))), and so on = Outerverse level and finite number of steps above it.

1-A+ = Infinite steps above baseline Outerversal

High 1-A = Above any recursions of size on any previous scale.

0 = blahblah transcendence / perspective. Transcends High 1-A by the same degree it transcends Low 1-A

So, instead of arguing needlessly over which way to arrange 1-A, I propose that we simply start to analyze the verses which may qualify for the higher-ends of the proposed system, while defaulting to the arrangement I described above for convenience's sake. As the ratings of the verses come to a clearer light, the way in which the 1-A tiers are arranged may be tweaked a bit in order to conform to what is most optimal for our purposes, based on the number of characters a given tier may have, and such things, before officially applying the system.

Of course, all of this won't be done in this thread, as it would obviously devolve into a seething mess pretty fast. The purpose of this continuation thread is so we can all be on the same page regarding the above, as the logic behind the system has already been discussed to death at this point.

Although, there are many ways in which what I proposed can be done, for instance, Dvorak1902 suggested that we downgrade all Tier 0 characters to Baseline 1-A and have people knowledgeable on the verse they're from make Context Revision Threads if they think the characters in question deserve a higher rating, and the same applies to the lower tiers, I guess. Given what I suggested above, I don't think this could be done 100% faithfully to the original idea, but the thing about knowledgeable users making CRTs to "upgrade" characters they believe deserve a higher tier seems fair.

However, I'd also like to bring up that we need to discuss what is basically the core of these revisions: Namely the changes on the applications of Dimensional Tiering and the way in which "lol dimenshunz" will start to be used from now on. This is something that I find rather surprising that I have to bring up, but I am really not devoid of any fault here, so I digress.

 

[Agnaa]

Wait so are we meant to claim which tiers characters from verses will be after revisions, or are we not meant to do that? Since you kinda said both in the OP.

I'm also very interested in how "lol dimenshunz" will be used from now on, specifically in relation to:

• Will anything change with dimensional hax in any way?
• Will there be any modifications to 1-A range, speed, immortality, regen, concepts, etc, considering (some of those things more than others) were separated for reasons that aren't as relevant now?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Agnaa

Like I said, the purpose of this thread (aside from discussing how dimensions are gonna work from now on) is to just ensure that we can be all on the same page regarding what I proposed, how we are all going to do it, if anyone has problems about it, all that jazz. The analyzing itself should preferably be left to separate CRTs tackling specific verses, as to not clog this thread with unecessary parallel conversations.

As for the questions...

1) In practice, Hax basically won't be quite denoted solely by dimensions, anymore. For example, "5-D hax" won't really mean anything by itself, and at best I can see it being referred to as simply "High 2-A Hax", when translating stuff from the current system to the new one, if you get what I mean.

So, again, not much practical changes. The cogs and wheels are gonna change significantly, but stuff will basically remain unchanged, from a surface-level. Aside from the obvious vague, no-context mentions of higher dimensional stuff, at most I can see this affecting some verses which treat numbered dimensions weirdly and on a higher scale than normally denoted by the system, but other than that, nothing notable.

2) 1-A Regenerationn is already something quite contentious as of now, going by those never-completed revisions to True-Godly Regen, so I can't reliably speak for it.

As far as I see, Range will remain the same, Type 10 Immortality's description is at best going to be slightly tweaked (At least for now, whether it should be removed or not belongs to a separate thread, imo), and Concepts are mostly 100% arbitrary, so instances of them existing on an 1-A scale will still be a thing, although I can see Platonic Concepts being (at least slightly) affected by these revisions.

As for Irrelevant Speed.. Weeeeell, considering that the new system allows for 100% Aspatial and Atemporal characters who aren't 1-A, at best I can see it not being exclusive to 1-As anymore. Worst-case scenario for it is that it's going to be yeeted.

 

[Antvasima]

I have highlighted this thread and moved it to the staff forum.

If regular members who have not received specific allowances wish to post something genuinely important here, please contact an active administrator.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah we should move on to individual verses. But of course controversial series like Masada and Umineko may need their own threads.

 

[Antvasima]

Promestein and DarkLK are our main Umineko experts.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I've talked with Promestein and Ultima and Sera and they all agree that the "Human Domain" being 1-A is unnaceptable, because it is from Rewrite, a Visual Novel published by an entirely different studio (Key, and not 7th Expansion) which wasn't even entirely written by Ryukishi.

Scaling it to When They Cry is unnaceptable, because both works aren't in continuity to each other. They merely share similar themes. It's the same reason why we can't scale something like American Gods to Sandman, simply because both are written by Neil Gaiman.

 

[Antvasima]

Given the scale of the higher characters transcending many degrees of story settings, wouldn't alternative official versions be included into the canon automatically anyway?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Given the scale of the higher characters transcending many degrees of story settings, wouldn't alternative official versions be included into the canon automatically anyway?

You misunderstand. You can't cross-scale between two entirely different settings simply because they are written by the same guy. Key doesn't hold the rights to When They Cry and 7th Expansion doesn't hold the rights to Rewrite. They are entirely different stories owned by entire different Visual Novel Studios.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if they are different settings that may be different, but it depends on if the author intended them to be part of the same canon or not.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He didn't. This is entirely DarkLK's headcanon. It's unnaceptable by our wiki's standards. We cannot make exceptions to someone's pet verse.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It seems best to let Promestein and Sera ask him about it though.

 

[First_Witch]

I am by no means knowledgeable on this topic and i generally trust Sera's judgement on this as a japanese speaking person, so i hope i am not repeating known and debunked information here.

But if Rewrite isnt affiliated with 07th Expansion, why does the company feature a page on their (presumably) official website?

Here is the Rewrite Page on 07th Expansio

I obviously am missing some form of context, i cant read anything on the page and i quiet frankly dont care enough to suffer through google translate.

 

[Malomtek]

He didn't. This is entirely DarkLK's headcanon. It's unnaceptable by our wiki's standards. We cannot make exceptions to someone's pet verse.

That is a weirdly strong claim to make against DarkLK, especially since I don't think he ever cross-scaled Umineko and Rewrite, and not even in ACF wiki did he equate the Human Domain with 1-A.

Sounds like you just have a personal vendetta against him, for whatever reason.

 

[Malomtek]

I am by no means knowledgeable on this topic and i generally trust Sera's judgement on this as a japanese speaking person, so i hope i am not repeating known and debunked information here.

But if Rewrite isnt affiliated with 07th Expansion, why does the company feature a page on their (presumably) official website?

Here is the Rewrite Page on 07th Expansio

I obviously am missing some form of context, i cant read anything on the page and i quiet frankly dont care enough to suffer through google translate.

Authors will obviously promote anything they've worked on, even in a different setting than their own personal verse.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Don't make such accusations to derail the thread, please. I don't have a personal vendetta against anything except for innacurate ratings regardless of who's behind them

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I am not speaking for anyone here, but I am fairly sure that many of the scans DarkLk posted for WTC's Cosmology were indeed from Rewrite, mainly the ones supposedly detailing how the Ningen Domain is structured and all that jazz. Just clarifying that tidbit here.

I... don't think it would be 1-A in the system I am proposing anyways, since from what I've seen, it comes from it containing aspatial and atemporal realms where coordinate axes are "all wrong" and don't function whatsoever + conceptual shenanigans far past that. The former obviously won't fly as evidence for 1-A in the new system, unless some further context is given, for reasons I believe have already been explained, and the latter would scale to the Domain of Witches at best, going by what the scans say and assuming scaling Rewrite to Umineko is valid.

Anyways, we should try to not derail this thread. So, no throwing around accusations of bias against X and the like kthnx

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Promestein is supposed to manage a revision for our Umineko pages eventually, so it is best if somebody asks her to comment here and talk with DarkLK.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Unfortunately, I'm unfamiliar with many 1-A and above verses/characters. I do agree that the focus should be more focused on specific verses and that DarkLK's input would be helpful. But I do here he's often busy, same with Promestein.

I have heard there may have been problems with Tenchi Muyo; not familiar with said verse, but it is something I'm interested in looking at.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I gave Tenchi Muyo its current ratings long ago based on the information that I received from DarkLK and wrote down in these three pages.

I think that Sera EX intends to revise it eventually, and that she has a better grasp of the power hierarchy than I do. I have forgotten most of the lore over the years, and am mostly unfamiliar with the 17 official Japanese Tenchi GXP novels.

 

[Malomtek]

Don't make such accusations to derail the thread, please. I don't have a personal vendetta against anything except for innacurate ratings regardless of who's behind them

You were derailing the thread first with those low-level call-out posts against DarkLK, talking about "DarkLK's headcanon" and implying that Umineko is his "pet verse".

But regardless, I'll stop that discussion, and get back to this one.

Make every character in any degree of 1-A/0 here Unknow until we figure out how exactly they should be placed under whatever new tiering system we pick.

 

[Antvasima]

I would also appreciate if all staff members try their best to be respectful and polite to each other.

 

[DarkLK]

I don't even understand what the difference is, what is the limit in the human domain for the current system. Obviously, nobody would agree with high 1-A/0 any meta being anyway.

And in any case, you will get 1-A meta beings, 1-A+ Voyagers and high 1-A Featherine.

Although these conversations are meaningless until someone actually begins to update the pages.

and the latter would scale to the Domain of Witches at best

Human evolution and the human limit within Shinrabansho that does not reach the higher domain by definition... to the Domain of Witches... This is nonsense. Better to forget about it at all than to add it to the Witches Domain. It's impossible. At all.

Thanks for your attention. Good luck.

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies for any shown disrespect towards you DarkLK. I will ask Promestein to help out.

 

[DarkLK]

No problem.

If Prom still want to update the pages I can help with advice. Yes, I'm reminding to you guys again that it's not me who works with these pages, and you don't need to make any complaints to me about this. You will receive such tiers as you will define by yourself. And I already said all that I wanted to say about it. I do not want to repeat myself.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Not a staff member, but remember people. Save your arguments on how we adjust the 1-A's and 0'S to whatever the new system is LATER. This is ONLY on what system should we use

 

[Maxnumb231]

He didn't. This is entirely DarkLK's headcanon. It's unnaceptable by our wiki's standards. We cannot make exceptions to someone's pet verse.

That is a weirdly strong claim to make against DarkLK, especially since I don't think he ever cross-scaled Umineko and Rewrite, and not even in ACF wiki did he equate the Human Domain with 1-A.
Sounds like you just have a personal vendetta against him, for whatever reason.

it did use as a benchmark to scale the witches to high they are which would need more validation and evaluation towards the verse same as masadaverse.

 

[Maxnumb231]

this is why masadaverse sequels that are totally different setting dont scale to the main that masada has done bcuz its inaccurate.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Bumping this. If anyone has any meaningful input to give here, better do such now.

 

[Malomtek]

Bumping this. If anyone has any meaningful input to give here, better do such now.

Do whatever you feel is best at this point. It's clear that this discussion would otherwise go nowhere at this point.

 

[JackJoyce]

I don't understand the point of Low 1-A. There's almost 0 verses (except probably Downstreamers) which qualifies for it.

 

[Andytrenom]

Agnaa listed several verses that qualify, I believe

 

[JackJoyce]

Agnaa listed several verses that qualify, I believe

Yes he did. But without any proper justification

 

[Malomtek]

Agnaa listed several verses that qualify, I believe

Where?

 

[The_Causality]

I guess that i'am in agreement about the new setting Ultima boi brought and the suggestion to the other members.

I guess this thread is to talk about the changements this new setting will do? like for Tenchi, Masada, Umineko.

 

[Duedate8898]

[/I]

Here's some more uncountably infinite verses: Discworld, Twin Peaks, Marvel, Manifold, Dark Tower, Elder Scrolls, as well as SCP that I mentioned earlier

Apparently verses where infinite-dimensional levels are irrelevant but they're not outerversal would qualify for this, and so they may not need to specify "uncountably infinite".

 

[Antvasima]

I am not entirely certain which parts of the discussion that we should focus on here. My apologies.

 

[Crabwhale]

^

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Been chatting with Ultima and I think we finally agree with everything about the Tiering System, and he's said that he doesn't mind merging High 1-A and 0 into one.