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Tier 9-C Streets of Violence Tournament (2022): Chris Jericho vs Satou Kazuma

Pikaman said:
Could we maybe agree to restrict chains from here on out? Kazuma still has a wide variety of abilities, but Class M LS feels a tad excessive

If you don’t wanna budge that’s fine too, but preferably it makes the tournament more fun when options like that aren’t a factor
Click to expand...

Agreed with Class M stuff can we find a reasonable solution for such
 
Phoenks said:
This point is moot because he was still effectively famous when he debuted because all these people were watching him.
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This is a wack argument, you are not inherently famous just because you’re a WWE wrestler, nor are you instantly liked or regarded as important or worth the audience’s time
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
sigh

This shit is honestly getting annoying.

Just because you're famous, that doesn't mean you can manipulate thousands-millions of people across a month without saying a word. Why can't you get this across your head?

The Rock: Arguably the most famous person in the WWE. One of, if not, the most charismatic wrestler to ever live. He himself got boo'd by the crowd before.

John Cena: A guy who the crowd is supposed to like, was boo'd by them on numerous occasions.

The crowd didn't give two ***** that they were famous. They still boo'd them. What is so hard to understand about that???

This argument is so ******* dumb.
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Holy shit I can't believe you completely ignored everything.

Just because you're famous, that doesn't mean you can manipulate thousands-millions of people across a month without saying a word. Why can't you get this across your head?
Click to expand...

It does, actually. Because thousands/millions of people are already watching you. Since he debuted, he always had an audience.

The Rock: Arguably the most famous person in the WWE. One of, if not, the most charismatic wrestler to ever live. He himself got boo'd by the crowd before. John Cena: A guy who the crowd is supposed to like, was boo'd by them on numerous occasions. The crowd didn't give two ***** that they were famous. They still boo'd them. What is so hard to understand about that???
Click to expand...

This is quite literally still social influencing to an extent... What are you talking about. What is so hard for YOU to understand?
 
Pikaman said:
Could we maybe agree to restrict chains from here on out? Kazuma still has a wide variety of abilities, but Class M LS feels a tad excessive

If you don’t wanna budge that’s fine too, but preferably it makes the tournament more fun when options like that aren’t a factor
Click to expand...
That seems like a good idea we are using his exaggerated outdated AP afterall
 
Pikaman said:
This is a wack argument, you are not inherently famous just because you’re a WWE wrestler, nor are you instantly liked or regarded as important or worth the audience’s time
Click to expand...
This doesn't matter, it's still far easier to get them to like or dislike you because they are all watching you since the moment you started.

Do you think he'd be able to do the same to that amount of people if he didn't start off with an audience? Answer honestly.
 
Phoenks said:
It does, actually. Because thousands/millions of people are already watching you. Since he debuted, he always had an audience.
Click to expand...
Having an audience does not mean you’re famous, especially since that audience is shared with a bunch of other wrestlers, nobody was booking their tickets to see Jericho’s debut and only Jericho’s debut. Someone who can’t sing does not automatically become a famous singer or someone people will remember just because you give them a 10 minute time slot in some big concert
 
Phoenks said:
This point is moot because he was still effectively famous when he debuted because all these people were watching him. It's far easier to influence people when they are literally watching you from the start... You're acting like every famous person should have crazy, supernatural levels of social influence because they have a large audience.

This is such a stupid argument.

Kazuma's Social Influencing is far superior because he does this stuff without having any audience to start with. And the people he influences are far harder to manipulate than humans.
Click to expand...
Huh???

So, say if you have Social Influencing, but I've been knowing you from the start. That would mean that I know your personality, and how you act. If anything, it'd be much harder for you to manipulate me if I've been knowing you from the start.

The fans knew about Jericho from the start, but they were still manipulated. That's arguably even more impressive. That would mean the crowd knows your ways, your personality/behavior. The fact that Jericho was still able to manipulate them despite this actually says a lot about how good Jericho's Social Influencing is.
 
Pikaman said:
If people don’t like you as a face that is the exact opposite of social influencing...
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Fr. That legit means you can't get the audience to join your side. That's such a dumb argument lol

But, I guess I'll vote Kazuma FRA based on versatility, but @Phoenks, you're take on Jericho's Social Influencing is so bad.
 
God, this is annoying. Just say you don't know anything about how social influencing works and move on.

You don't have crazy social influence for being able to "manipulate" a crowd on TV. For ***** sake. Literally, anyone could do the same thing with a big enough audience.
 
Phoenks said:
Thank you for admitting you don't know anything about social influencing.
Click to expand...
The job of a baby face is to convince people to like you, if you get booed as a baby face you have failed horrifically at your job and the audience has formed an opinion of you contrary to what you tried to manipulate them into. It is an example of social Influencing gone horribly wrong and showing that somebody doesn’t possess any talent in it (or they are having an off day (outlier) etc. etc.)
 
Phoenks said:
God, this is annoying. Just say you don't know anything about how social influencing works and move on.

You don't have crazy social influence for being able to "manipulate" a crowd on TV. For ***** sake. Literally, anyone could do the same thing with a big enough audience.
Click to expand...
Damn.

So I can manipulate a whole stadium just because I'm famous?

What am I doing with my life???

In all seriousness, please just stop with these wack arguments. Being famous or recognized doesn't mean shit. Not every person in the crowd is paying to watch just you. There are other things the crowd are interested in, and it isn't always you.

If the crowd knows who you are by you showing up for them every week, that means they would know about your personality, so it'd be even more impressive that you were able to trick people who already know you.
 
This was a pretty good match everyone

just as a notice unless there’s objections chains will be restricted from here on out
 
So I can manipulate a whole stadium just because I'm famous?
Click to expand...

It's literally a stadium full of people who are there to see people like you. Famous people do indeed do this all the time...

In all seriousness, please just stop with these wack arguments. Being famous or recognized doesn't mean shit. Not every person in the crowd is paying to watch just you. There are other things the crowd are interested in, and it isn't always.
Click to expand...

It does though. Having a crowd of people in the first place gives you the ability to influence them because they are all focused on you at the moment.

Building a crowd through individually going up and manipulating random people is a far, FAR superior demonstration of social influencing.
 
Phoenks said:
Building a crowd through individually going up and manipulating random people is far, FAR superior.
Click to expand...
What's funny is that not too many people knew about Jericho, yet it didn't take him long to get over with the crowd, so I can actually argue Jericho did this.

The Rock did this as well when he became the leader of The Nation of Domination. The crowd started to hate his guts, and he became a baby face, he immediately won the crowd over.

This basically applies to any wrestler that became one of the biggest stars in the company, and Jericho is not an exception.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
What's funny is that not too many people knew about Jericho, yet it didn't take him long to get over with the crowd, so I can actually argue Jericho did this.

The Rock did this as well when he became the leader of The Nation of Domination. The crowd started to hate his guts, and he became a baby face, he immediately won the crowd over.

This basically applies to any wrestler that became one of the biggest stars in the company, and Jericho is not an exception.
Click to expand...
I'm done arguing because you consistently refuse to acknowledge the fact that he still starts off with a crowd full of wrestling fans in the first place... Which is what allows him to be able to manipulate so many people.

Sigh...

Even if we go with your logic, Kazuma's SI is still superior via manipulating Demon Kings, Lichs, Gods, etc etc.

Moral of the story: Kazuma wins.
 
Phoenks said:
I'm done arguing because you are consistently refuse to acknowledge the fact that he still starts off with a crowd full of wrestling fans in the first place... Which is what allows him to be able to manipulate so many people.

Sigh...

Even if we go with your logic, Kazuma's SI is still superior via manipulating Demon Kings, Lichs, Gods, etc etc.
Click to expand...
1. And what if that crowd doesn't know who you are? This is a case of "a lot easier saying than doing." Saying that you can manipulate a whole crowd of fans because they're right there is a lot easier saying than doing, especially if that crowd in question doesn't know you. Just because you start off with something, doesn't automatically mean it'll be easier to accomplish the main goal.

2. You need context for that. Manipulating Demon Kings, Lichs, and Gods all sound good on paper, but you need to tell me how they act. Do they have a feat of them not falling for a trick by someone with extremely good Social Influencing? If not, then it's hard to assume this is as impressive as you're hyping it up to be.

"@Phoenks was able to manipulate Gods into joining their side."

Okay? But do those Gods have any kind of feats that make them extremely hard to trick/manipulate/influence? No? Then it's not that impressive.
 
Yeah Grace was hit a while ago, the arguing over SI is irrelevant and is not worth the hassle and frustration it is clearly causing both sides

for now
 
Pikaman said:
Yeah Grace was hit a while ago, the arguing over SI is irrelevant and is not worth the hassle and frustration it is clearly causing both sides

for now
Click to expand...
Yeah. Agreed. I'll stop arguing.

Besides, I'm still in first place, so it's all good for me. I still have a solid chance to win here.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
Yeah. Agreed. I'll stop arguing.

Besides, I'm still in first place, so it's all good for me. I still have a solid chance to win here.
Click to expand...
True but the presence of a loss means you now must rely on someone from Group B to stop Kazuma and then for some reason be unable to take out Jericho. Maybe Evelyn? She’s skilled enough to contest with Kazuma but falls behind hard in AP to Jericho
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
Damn.

So I can manipulate a whole stadium just because I'm famous?
Click to expand...
If you have mic skills and are smart with convincing talent then yes. People who play Baseball or are comedians on national stage or are magicans on Reality Tv Shows or Contents can manipulate people via their charm.
 
DemonicDude said:
If you have mic skills and are smart with convincing talent then yes. People who play Baseball or are comedians on national stage or are magicans on Reality Tv Shows or Contents can manipulate people via their charm.
Click to expand...
That's minor stuff. Comedians just do that to make them laugh. And if they fail, they fail horribly. That's not Social Influencing. It's not like the comedians were convincing the audience to do something. They're just making them laugh. That's nothing special.
 
Pikaman said:
True but you have a match out of hand and if Kazuma beat Jericho I doubt he’ll fall to whoever he has for his final match

Granted Giovanni could give him a run for his money...
Click to expand...
Has Kazuma faced Giovanni yet?
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
That's minor stuff. Comedians just do that to make them laugh. And if they fail, they fail horribly. That's not Social Influencing. It's not like the comedians were convincing the audience to do something. They're just making them laugh. That's nothing special.
Click to expand...
Those people still are good at convincing by the way it's off-topic non related to this match
 
Pikaman said:
True but the presence of a loss means you now must rely on someone from Group B to stop Kazuma and then for some reason be unable to take out Jericho. Maybe Evelyn? She’s skilled enough to contest with Kazuma but falls behind hard in AP to Jericho
Click to expand...
Kazuma's next matchup is against Giovanni, and Jericho beat him.

Remember Gio has Psuedo-Teleportation and Flight. And Kazuma's Class M Bind ability will be restricted for the rest of the tourney.
 
Pikaman said:
Has Kazuma faced Giovanni yet?
Click to expand...
Nope. Kazuma's next match is against him, though, and I'll definitely be watching that.

DemonicDude said:
Those people still are good at convincing by the way it's off-topic non related to this match
Click to expand...
They're good at convincing people to laugh?

Jokes aside, I get your argument, but it's nowhere near the level of Jericho or Kazuma's SI.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
Kazuma's next matchup is against Giovanni, and Jericho beat him.

Remember Gio has Psuedo-Teleportation and Flight. And Kazuma's Class M Bind ability will be restricted for the rest of the tourney.
Click to expand...
Not that bind would do anything against a teleporting opponent anyways lol
 
Phoenks said:
No hard feelings, btw. I might've come off a bit rude while addressing social influencing..

So, another Kazuma win, and he is now in the lead :>

Even without bind, Kazuma has got plenty to offer.
Click to expand...
It's fine Tatsu-sama!

I still love you, no matter how mean you get...
 
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