Tier 6 Mario Revision

[ZespeonGalaxy]

A While ago there was a whole revision thread that brought Mario to Tier 6. Sounds crazy right? My main goal today is to remove or at least have the tier 6 ratings be invalid for now. I'll be debunking the blog that got bing bing wahoo at tier 6 hell.


Section 1: The Reason why you're here
1-3: Super Mario Odyssey - Mario and Bowser are KO'D by a long fall at the end of the final boss fight. Mario is also staggered by being knocked off New Donk City Hall by Mechawiggler.

So if you skip over the video yes it looks like the fall hurt bowser, however. Let's get one thing out of the way. Bowser was ALREADY incapped / KO'd before hand. It's quite hard to believe that this got not looked over. So there's issue one. Off to an interesting start. Also, "Mario being KO'D" by a fall where he literally loses no HP so throw the antifeat out the window.
Lastly, the Mechabug staggering Mario literally should not qualify as an antifeat, the site currently scale the Mechabug to the same tier as Base Mario. This makes no sense to be an Antifeat. (Really I debunked 3 Antifeats already off to a great start)

4: New Super Mario Bros. Wii - Bowser is initially defeated by a fall, before Kamek powers him up
Why would Loud Thud be an Anti Feat? Bowser has never shown us that he can climb huge walls, think of BFR where except the bridge is the stage and Mario just took the bridge away from him so he's not killed. This has nothing to do with bowser's durability what so ever.


5: New Super Mario Bros Wii - Giant Bowser can walk just fine in ankle-deep lava, but is burned by it when dunked in it completely.
Quite interesting, bowser is just sinking really, he is not really a good lava swimmer really. He looks just about the same as the castle falling on him. He just sinks with the Lava really. And even then he does not have himself turn into Dry Bowser.


6: “New" Super Mario Bros. 2 - Bowser is initially defeated by a fall, before the Koopalings power him up
By a fall? This is not a great example that could have been used considering Mario with the gold flower bopped Bowser…? Even then a fall just incaps. Not kill. We been over this already less than 5 minutes ago

7: Super Mario World - Mario is hurt by an explosion that levels Roy's castle - Tier 8
Hurt…? If he is so hurt why didn’t Mario die…? This is just Mario having black smog on his face…? It’s just a gag like when someone like Wile E Coyote gets black smog on (inb4 someone says this is whataboutism)

8: Super Mario World - Mario needs multiple attacks to destroy Morton, Lemmy and Wendy's castles - Tier 9/8
I dont know if this is an antifeat or struggle, these cutscenes are clearly meant to be gags. Cause really Mario would not be as tall as the castle. Which in game, the castles are much much bigger than Mario.

9-10: New Super Mario Bros. DS - Bowser falls hard enough to kick up a lot of dust and small fragments, and this knocks him out. - Tier 8
Also, the dust and small fragments stuff happens, yes, however. Knocking him out is just a possible one, could just be tired since Mario can KO Bowser with fireballs in NSMBDS

11: New Super Mario Bros Wii - Bowser's castle falls on him in the ending. He shouts in fear as it happens and then yells in pain afterwards, - Tier 9.
So if anything yeah Bowser has the most antifeats sure you know what. Either way his sounds comes off as tired or too bothered to care.


12: Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour - Bowser, Wario and Waluigi all panic as a castle-sized explosion happens, which bruises them. - Tier 8
Look and observe carefully, Mario knocked the bomb and forced Bowser to drop a bomb. He gave his force to the golf ball which strikes Wario and Waluigi with his own force, while also hitting bowser. They were bruised already. Huge oversight if you ask anyone.

13: Super Mario Run - Bowser is defeated by tossing Bob-Ombs back at him.
Oh yeah lets ignore striking strength then. What is gonna hurt more? A 5 year old throwing a baseball at you with full force or a grown man throwing a baseball at you with full force. The SMR Bowser “Antifeat” is so comparable to the baseball one I made just now.

14: Super Mario 64 - Bowser is defeated three times by being thrown into small bombs. - 9-B
Or it just hurts when bowser is thrown into stuff by Mario. Who is juiced up by Stars. (In 64 Mario needs 8 Stars to reach and beat bowser)

15: Super Mario Galaxy 2 - Bowser Jr. is scared of his Boomsday Machine's imminent explosion, and yells in pain once it does blow up - Tier 9
Scared of a grandstar? Thats… quite reasonable to be afraid of, one of the most powerful stars.

16: Super Mario Galaxy 2 - Bowser visibly hurts his own hand by punching a small meteorite - Tier 9/8
He is just pulling his hand out. What do you mean. Just. What? This is just Bowser pulling out his hand, nothing should indicate in the slightest that bowser was harmed

17: Super Mario 3D World - Bowser's car is damaged and destroyed by bombs - 9-B
Again this completely ignores striking strength since Mario Luigi Toad Peach and Rosalina are capable of hurting bowser without amps. It’s also explosives and not statics entirely.

18: Super Mario Odyssey - Is injured by a beam from a comparable foe that breaks, but doesn't destroy, the Odyssey - 9-B unless you wanna argue the Odyssey is super-durable which it could be but there isn't much evidence to.
“Injured” You see, no scratch on either Cappy or Mario. And either way this is probably another case of a Boss being a fodder 6-C or 3-C whatever you wanna call it. King Bob-Omb, Lava Piranha. Goomboss are rated 6-C As well so scaling the dragon from odyssey to 6-C Is not surreal at all. All that was done was disabling the odyssey ship. All was done was shock Mario with likely electricity manipulation.

19: Super Mario Odyssey - Mario tries to dodge and is eventually “hurt” by cannonballs - 9-B
Good ol chum, lemme tell you, he just gets knocked away. Not entirely sure about hurt, also you can argue it's bowser's creations. So idk he doesnt die just gets launched by the impact cause a canonball is likely heavier and has more mass than Mario.


20: Super Mario RPG - A giant Bob-Omb crushes a boss the party was facing, and Mallow states that the explosion is a threat, and it does seemingly hurt them though in a toony way. - Tier 8-ish for the explosion at best.
So I’m not sure if you watched the whole clip but yes, Mallow does state the explosion is a threat. Sure, but please just show me where in the dialogue that Mallow, Geno, Or Mario indicates that it was hurting them or left them damaged. They are just covered in ashes or black smog.

21: Super Mario RPG - Mario is sent flying from Bowser's Castle to his home and is briefly KOd by this, or at least left dizzy - Tier 9 to 8 depending how you calc it.
He gets knocked out by Exor. You know, the big bad boss who Bowser and Mario had to fight against? Exor penetrated the castle and sent them flying. This is no Antifeat. I argue the odyssey cannonball feat is a BIGGER antifeat than this.


22: Saper Mario: The Thousand Year Door - Mario is shot to the Moon with a cannon and is not only distressed as he flies but hurt by the landing, as evidenced by the noise he makes, and so are his partners - Tier 7.
Ok so not only do Koops and Mario get back up like nothing happened, they just flap their arms while flying, the just make a sound while they land, if they really were hurt Koops would have said something.

23: Super Paper Mario - Luigi is shot into space and falling down hurts him - Tier 7.
And he gets back up like normal, no one if this was such an antifeat he would have not gone up wouldn’t he?

24: Super Paper Mario - Bowser is stunned and groggy after an explosion that obliterates his castle
Ok first of all, Boomer who is a Pixl in Super Paper Mario. Who likely scales to Mario. (Why would an ordinary explosion mean anything to bowser and Mario planted boomer) So it's not an ordinary explosion like you'll think, the explosion makes bowbow fly and just bother him. Like an "woah who blew this up"

25: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (DX) - Mario & Luigi are knocked out by an explosion. This is a scripted event that will KO them no matter their health. 9-A-ish
While at 1HP Tanking the hit or what not. This could be argued as a 6-C / 3-C Fodder I guess? If you claim it to KO them then that's fine probably

26: Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time - Luigi gets flattened by a large block falling on him - Tier 9.
Yes Luigi is flattened, but if you read closely the block is doing it’s job, supposed to alter its shape to match the size of the heart of the one who strikes it. How is this an antifeat? If Anything Luigi puts his energy to a block and the block emulated Luigi’s strength. Hell the star EVEN says "it can alter it's shape to match the size of the heart of the one who strikes it"

27: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (DX) - An explosion that destroys an airship injures and temporarily KOs Luigi - Tier 8-y
KO? He lays there, gets back up, no HP digit decreased. Also keep in mind that Fawful caused the explosion, he was blowing the ship up

MARIO PARTY - The entire Mario Party series is chock-full of minigame anti-feats, there's genuinely dozens, most in the tier 9 range (a)
28: The first bomb ping pong whatever “antifeat” is ignoring striking strength.

29: Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam - Roy and Mario smash a rock towards and above each other repeatedly and it only breaks after several exchanges. It falling also hurts Mario if he doesn't deflect it.
Not only does this literally contradict itself being an antifeat "smashing a rock towards each other" Roy is clearly throwing a large rock at Mario. Who is clearly the same tier as Mario.

30: Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam - Mario, Green Mario and Flat Mario panic as a giant iron ball falls on them and knocks them out - 9-Aish
A Bowser ball, and you see the koopalings right? They probably threw it. Roy Ludwig Wendy and Larry who are. 6-C Characters by the way

31: Mario Power Tennis - Bowser, Wario and Waluigi all panic as a stadium-sized explosion happens, which knocks them all out. Roughly high tier 8/low tier 7
If you watched beforehand, Mario is doing striking strength here and is the reason why the explosion even happened. Which makes sense to knock out Wario Bowser and Waluigi.

32: Luigi’s Mansion 2 A boss capable of harming Luigi is defeated by launching bombs into his mouth - 9-B maaaybe 9-A
Harm?? Harm?? Harm?? Luigi just falls, he loses NO HP. Not a single digit of HP. He does not even look phased. Also the boss could just have low durability.

33: Paper Mario Origami King - Mario and Olivia are hurt by an elevator falling hard enough to destroy the doors near it - Tier 9
They just, fall, and take no damage. The most they do is dust themselves off.

34: Super Mario 64 - Mario is hurt and staggered upon being fired against a wall hard enough to break it in Bob-Omb Battlefield. This is a scripted sequence and the only way to get the star without glitches. - 9-A?
I mean Mario throws himself, imagine shooting yourself out of a canon at a wall? That would hurt. This does not really make any sense to label as an Anti Feat.


35: New Super Mario Bros. DS - Bowser is infamously burned to the bone by lava.
He just turns into Dry Bowser and sinks because he can’t swim. I guess. And also, bowser is capable of surviving of being dunked into lava and jumping back in like nothing happened.

Lava Stuff (See Below)
Super Mario Bros 1/The Lost Levels/All-Stars - Bowser is defeated by being dunked into lava. This is obviously a very common thing among the Mario games but it is still an anti-feat, ultimately durability equals to similar levels of heat resistance and if this is the primary way to defeat Bowser, well, he should be able to survive that if he was 3-C. Tier 9 heat resistance. Since this kind of anti-feat is all the same I'm just gonna list them all now. There's a bit of inconsistency in that it sometimes just hurts him, and sometimes he's straight-up killed by it, but lava can vary in temperature.

• 36: New Super Mario Bros Wii - Giant Bowser can walk just fine in ankle-deep lava, but is burned by it when robdunked in it completely.
• 37: Super Mario 3D Land - Bowser is defeated by falling into lava.
• 38: Super Mario 3D Land - Dry Bowser is defeated when dunked in lava.
• 39: Yoshi's Tilt 'N Tumble - Bowser is injured by falling in lava.
• 40: Super Mario Bros - Bowser is defeated by being dunked into lava. This is obviously a very common thing among the Mario games but it is still an anti-feat, ultimately durability equals to similar levels of heat resistance and if this is the primary way to defeat Bowser, well, he should be able to survive that if he was 3-C. Tier 9 heat resistance. Since this kind of anti-feat is all the same I'm just gonna list them all now. There's a bit of inconsistency in that it sometimes just hurts him, and sometimes he's straight-up killed by it, but lava can vary in temperature.
  
  Bowser is likely a bad lava swimmer, but even then. If you count the other lava “antifeats” half of the time Bowser is in a weakened state, since he loses to Mario all the time. To where Lava is the finishing blow, even then, in Mario Kart characters often fall in lava and just have no effect. This happens in EVERY Mario Kart title. There are currently 8 Mario titles where all of the characters (Including Bowser) can fall into Lava and not show any signs of scratch, Which would nullify all of the current Lava Arguments. Hell . We even see that Bowser is not completely evaporated or killed by lava. And bowser returns not burned or completely hopeless. (Except that his plan fails and he mourns it)
  
  41: Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam - Mario, Luigi and the other Mario panic and run at the sight of giant papercraft creations falling on them - Paper doesn't fall like that so hard to estimate
  This would not even count as an anti feat, anyone would run away if they saw a giant object falling. Literally so many characters would run away. Also these were weapons made to destroy enemies.
  42-44: Super Mario 64 - Bowser is defeated three times by being thrown into small bombs. - 9-B
  
  Again it just once again hurts when Bowser is thrown into stuff by Mario. Its just striking strength really.
  
  45: Super Mario Odyssey - The entire ending sequence of Odyssey is a giant anti-feat, Mario needs Bowser's strength to get past large stone walls, and the collapse of the cave threatens to kill all three,
  Its just that the game wants you to break and beat the game as Bowser. Nothing flatout tells us that Mario can not break the walls in time before the cave kills all of them.
  
  46: Paper Mario: Origami King - Olivia was knocked out by that same boulder falling on her - Tier 9/8
  Bobby is a partner. Who could reasonably scale to Mario in base form at the very least. Of course Olivia who also scales to Mario would be hurt by an explosion who scales to Mario Should also Mention that Bobby literally says “She’s ok!”
  
  47: Mario Party Cast can not break a large rock of
  In SuperStar Saga, Galaxy, Mario can break crystals, this is a party game so everyone is gonna be breaking stuff in a slower faster and using such as an anti feat does not truly compute or seems entirely reasonable when outside of party those anti feats do not exist. The rocks break eventually either way
  
  48: Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story (DX) - Fails to destroy a particularly tough boulder. Tier 9
  I mean, he does, but again he is capable of punching large rocks and boulders either way. However,,,, Bowser is in a rather nerfed state
• 
  
• rendered unconscious and nearly killed by his own mechanized castle falling on him. In fact all giant battles start this way, with Bowser near death or at least unconscious, so let's get them out of the way - From tier 9 to tier 7
  50: Nearly killed by Tower of Yikk stomping on him
  51: Nearly killed by the Fawful Express smashing him against a wall and is, as a bonus, hurt when he's rammed through large rocks.
  52 Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story (DX) - Bowser is briefly rendered unconscious by the explosion of a large group of Bob-Ombs
  
  Also, in Inside Story, its quite noticable how depowered Bowser is. Considering he eats a mushroom that fawful provided to him, which while gives bowser the ability to inhale. It has it's drawbacks. Such as KO'ing Bowser. It does not end there, even in mid battle bowser states the weird mushroom makes him feel cruddy. Which would explain why bowser wouldn't be able to withstand the following anti feats.
  
  53: Super Mario Bros 3 - Bowser is defeated by a long fall. Note that the result for this might be higher than a generic "max fall speed impact" feat due to Bowser's massive size and weight. - Tier 9. Again common feat so let's go through 'em, with the exception of falling feats that cause destruction as they are their own, more impressive feat.
  Not sure why is this listed as an antifeat where it just as stated more than once. Incaps Bowser. BFR but not really.
  
  54: ""New"" Super Mario Bros. U - Bowser is initially defeated by a fall, before Kamek powers him up.
  Same argument as 53 applies to here.
  
  
  And, thats just about done with the AntiFeats debunk. Quite a lot huh?
  
  Section 2: But as a man once said, but wait! There's more!.
  Toad’s profile not having a tier 4 key is gross considering he can use stars. Not only can Toad weld stars but Birdo, Shy Guy, and even Koopa Troopa can as well.
  
  
  
  Closing notes
  I been on and off with debating if I wanted to do this, and I figured it would not hurt to try. Took around 4 days to make, if you have any questions or concerns shoot a reply. And now, we wait. Thank you so much for reading and in a future thread I'll mayyybeeee yap about where Mario and co should scale.
  
  
  Agree:
  Disagree:
  Neutral: Maverick, Saman, Armor, Fuji,

 

[The_Pink_God]

I'll be following

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Disagree FRB (I place my faith in Armor-sama)

A lot of these are just like. Not very good debunks, to be blunt. For example:

45: Super Mario Odyssey - The entire ending sequence of Odyssey is a giant anti-feat, Mario needs Bowser's strength to get past large stone walls, and the collapse of the cave threatens to kill all three,
Its just that the game wants you to break and beat the game as Bowser. Nothing flatout tells us that Mario can not break the walls in time before the cave kills all of them.

"Nothing flatout tells us" Yes it does, Mario objectively can't break the blocks preventing his escape. Bowser isn't optional, he's not a suggestion, the game is quite explicit about Bowser's strength being necessary to break those blocks. Cappy can't break them, you can't ground pound them to dust, and as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure this is one of the few moments where you are hard required to possess an enemy in order to progress.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Disagree FRB (I place my faith in Armor-sama)

A lot of these are just like. Not very good debunks, to be blunt. For example:

"Nothing flatout tells us" Yes it does, Mario objectively can't break the blocks preventing his escape. Bowser isn't optional, he's not a suggestion, the game is quite explicit about Bowser's strength being necessary to break those blocks. Cappy can't break them, you can't ground pound them to dust, and as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure this is one of the few moments where you are hard required to possess an enemy in order to progress.

Its just that the game wants the player to use bowser. I dont see why the game making the player posses bowser should qualify as an antifeat.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Disagree FRB (I place my faith in Armor-sama)

Also, may I know what else you disagree with?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Its just that the game wants the player to use bowser. I dont see why the game making the player posses bowser should qualify as an antifeat.

I mean, okay? I didn't argue against that. That doesn't really change the feat, and a game wanting a player to do things in a specific way doesn't invalidate the feats (or anti-feats) that go along with it. Imagine if I said Mario throwing Bowser into space in Mario Party was invalid because "the game wants you to do that".

Also, may I know what else you disagree with?

I'm gonna remain neutral until either Armor gives his response (I hope he'll respond, anyways) or I get a chance to read through everything in full.

 

[Livinmeme]

You know what, a good chunk of these can be resumed to "Well he was hurt...But he wasn't reduced to red mist, so not an anti feat". For example

Ok so not only do Koops and Mario get back up like nothing happened, they just flap their arms while flying, the just make a sound while they land, if they really were hurt Koops would have said something.

KO? He lays there, gets back up, no HP digit decreased. Also keep in mind that Fawful caused the explosion, he was blowing the ship up

So if anything yeah Bowser has the most antifeats sure you know what. Either way his sounds comes off as tired or too bothered to care.

By a fall? This is not a great example that could have been used considering Mario with the gold flower bopped Bowser…? Even then a fall just incaps. Not kill. We been over this already less than 5 minutes ago

23: Super Paper Mario - Luigi is shot into space and falling down hurts him - Tier 7.
And he gets back up like normal, no one if this was such an antifeat he would have not gone up wouldn’t he?

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

You know what, a good chunk of these can be resumed to "Well he was hurt...But he wasn't reduced to red mist, so not an anti feat". For example

I think you're misunderstanding. Point to where I said "where he was hurt but" I stand by the belief that most of these are not the "not hurt but" and your assumption is not what Im thinking or even saying like at all. I disagree with how you reached and interpreted such.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Following

Might give a comment later

 

[DimeUhDozen]

My copium tells me yes, but my logic… my logic’s telling me no…

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Though that being said, there is something from the original downgrade thread that did bug me. It isn’t brought up here and I think it should be considering it’s a major factor in scaling issues to begin with.

Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? This is going to be a bit of a tangent, but yes.

• In 64 and Galaxy, Mario is (in base) capable of fighting foes that gain a massive power increase from Power Stars, despite some of them being already physically superior to him without need of buffs:
  • Bowser, who is almost universally portrayed as superior, though comparable, to Mario, without need of upgrades, is the biggest example, but there are others. Mario even fights Giant Bowser in Galaxy/Galaxy 2 where his buff (Grand Star) is even superior to a Power Star's. Taken at face value, this would give us a scaling chain of: Mario =< Bowser << Power Star Bowser << Grand Star Bowser >= Mario, which obviously makes no sense.

We’ll get back to this in a bit.

• • King Boo is fought in Mario 64 DS, and is such a powerful and prominently reoccurring villain that I don't think it's necessary to post scans of him being capable of easily threatening the cast in base.

There’s one problem. Mario 64 DS… isn’t canon.

Whenever the events of Mario 64 are brought up in canon, it’s always the original. No mention of Yoshi, or Wario, or Luigi. Just Mario who beat Bowser. There’s no reason to believe this remake which drastically alters the order of events that happened is canon to the main series, so this doesn’t hold much water. This actually fixes many of the Star-amped issues from the first CRT.

• • Eyerok is fought as a boss again in Mario Kart DS, and defeated in a very similar manner. Notably, he is destroyed, and releases no stars at all.

Mario Kart is typically portrayed as something the gang does casually. There’s a reason that the inviting Bowser over for karting trope is a notably lampshaded. And even then, we have no reason to believe this boss is canon either as the MKDS boss modes have no story relevancy to them in the slightest, nor are they brought up. At least Mario Party games generally do have stories sometimes. This is just an extra challenge mode thing.

• • King Bob-Omb/Big Bob-Omb serves as a boss battle in Mario Party 9, Mario Party Island Tour, Mario Party Island Tour, Mario Kart DS and Mario & Luigi Paper Jam. In all of those games he is capable of threatening the main cast (sometimes several at once) without need of Power Stars.

We’ve already covered MKDS’s story relevancies. Now, the rest of the fights? They’re legit. MP9 and Island Tour have stories, and Paper Jam is an RPG.

So how can we fix this? Simple. All of these fights take place after Galaxy, where the fights between Mario and Bowser from 64 to Galaxy are as different as night and day. It’s fair to assume that Mario became noticeably stronger between games, especially given the RPG-grinding games that show a difference of Mario in strength from the start of the game to the end.

So we just give Mario a Key for the Classic Era to Post-Galaxy, the Modern era for consistency’s sake.

I don’t know if I cooked with this or if I’m speaking out my ass on this though.

 

[Chariot190]

So if you skip over the video yes it looks like the fall hurt bowser, however. Let's get one thing out of the way. Bowser was ALREADY incapped / KO'd before hand. It's quite hard to believe that this got not looked over. So there's issue one.

Fair actually.

Off to an interesting start. Also, "Mario being KO'D" by a fall where he literally loses no HP so throw the antifeat out the window.

Not fair, HP is a gameplay mechanic, would be dumb as shit if ya beat Bows at 1hp, then oops ya died **** you ig.
The actual fall does daze him, we see that, HP a non-factor.

Lastly, the Mechabug staggering Mario literally should not qualify as an antifeat, the site currently scale the Mechabug to the same tier as Base Mario. This makes no sense to be an Antifeat. (Really I debunked 3 Antifeats already off to a great start)

Cut the attitude as if everything you'll say is objective.

Why would Loud Thud be an Anti Feat? Bowser has never shown us that he can climb huge walls, think of BFR where except the bridge is the stage and Mario just took the bridge away from him so he's not killed. This has nothing to do with bowser's durability what so ever.

Yes he has? He's literally dug his nails into walls and climbed them before?

Quite interesting, bowser is just sinking really, he is not really a good lava swimmer really.

Bruh what? He can swim just fine, we've seen him swim before

He looks just about the same as the castle falling on him. He just sinks with the Lava really. And even then he does not have himself turn into Dry Bowser.

Not being melted down to the bone doesn't mean it didnt hurt him dog.

By a fall? This is not a great example that could have been used considering Mario with the gold flower bopped Bowser…?

That's an optional method of different, standard is the bridge method, why do you think there's a switch?
Secondly, he's still waving his arms in panic, he wasn't incapped by that.

Even then a fall just incaps. Not kill. We been over this already less than 5 minutes ago

So? Not being killed doesn't mean it didn't hurt him.

Hurt…? If he is so hurt why didn’t Mario die…? This is just Mario having black smog on his face…? It’s just a gag like when someone like Wile E Coyote gets black smog on (inb4 someone says this is whataboutism)

What the ****. Bro, being hurt is still a anti-feat to tier 6. Just because they dont DIE doesnt mean it doesnt harm them.
Also idk chief.

I dont know if this is an antifeat or struggle, these cutscenes are clearly meant to be gags. Cause really Mario would not be as tall as the castle. Which in game, the castles are much much bigger than Mario.

Dude, by that logic 99% of his good feats gags so they don't count too.
And no, it's called game limitations.
Why do you think it's listed tier 8? That's WITH in-game size.

Also, the dust and small fragments stuff happens, yes, however. Knocking him out is just a possible one, could just be tired since Mario can KO Bowser with fireballs in NSMBDS

Yeah except, no, he was cognizant before the fall.

So if anything yeah Bowser has the most antifeats sure you know what. Either way his sounds comes off as tired or too bothered to care.

He's SCREAMING my dude, he def gives a ****.

Look and observe carefully, Mario knocked the bomb and forced Bowser to drop a bomb. He gave his force to the golf ball which strikes Wario and Waluigi with his own force, while also hitting bowser. They were bruised already. Huge oversight if you ask anyone.

Actually, nah that's even worse, a like 140kmh golfball bruised them (9-C) and the blast itself would only be like 9-B or A via isl.

Oh yeah lets ignore striking strength then. What is gonna hurt more? A 5 year old throwing a baseball at you with full force or a grown man throwing a baseball at you with full force. The SMR Bowser “Antifeat” is so comparable to the baseball one I made just now.

The explosions is what hurts him, not the fact they're being thrown. Also throwing is LS, not striking.

14: Super Mario 64 - Bowser is defeated three times by being thrown into small bombs. - 9-B
Or it just hurts when bowser is thrown into stuff by Mario. Who is juiced up by Stars. (In 64 Mario needs 8 Stars to reach and beat bowser)

No? He's fine if ya miss the throw, it's the bombs' blast that hurt him?

15: Super Mario Galaxy 2 - Bowser Jr. is scared of his Boomsday Machine's imminent explosion, and yells in pain once it does blow up - Tier 9
Scared of a grandstar? Thats… quite reasonable to be afraid of, one of the most powerful stars.

Yeah nah dog, the explosion had nothing to do with that. The explosion was due to damage and mechanical failure.

16: Super Mario Galaxy 2 - Bowser visibly hurts his own hand by punching a small meteorite - Tier 9/8
He is just pulling his hand out. What do you mean. Just. What? This is just Bowser pulling out his hand, nothing should indicate in the slightest that bowser was harmed

Yeah fair actually. Still an anti-feat tho given, well, pulving that whole thing would be like 8-C, he dont even do that but yeah.

17: Super Mario 3D World - Bowser's car is damaged and destroyed by bombs - 9-B
Again this completely ignores striking strength since Mario Luigi Toad Peach and Rosalina are capable of hurting bowser without amps. It’s also explosives and not statics entirely.

Yeah starting to hate these arguments.
it's the bombs dude, ya can go up and hit it directly, with the very same attack that sent the bomb flying, and it does nothing, it ly takes damage when the bomb explodes on it.

18: Super Mario Odyssey - Is injured by a beam from a comparable foe that breaks, but doesn't destroy, the Odyssey - 9-B unless you wanna argue the Odyssey is super-durable which it could be but there isn't much evidence to.
“Injured” You see, no scratch on either Cappy or Mario. And either way this is probably another case of a Boss being a fodder 6-C or 3-C whatever you wanna call it. King Bob-Omb, Lava Piranha. Goomboss are rated 6-C As well so scaling the dragon from odyssey to 6-C Is not surreal at all. All that was done was disabling the odyssey ship. All was done was shock Mario with likely electricity manipulation.

You ignored the argument.
Fafnir shoots lightning beam.
The damage it inflicts is 9-B on a metal object with no real evidence of being hyper durable.
King Koops planned for this to kill Mario, or at least harm him.
Mario lives, but the fact still remains, a 9-B attack was put in his ballpark.

19: Super Mario Odyssey - Mario tries to dodge and is eventually “hurt” by cannonballs - 9-B
Good ol chum, lemme tell you, he just gets knocked away. Not entirely sure about hurt, also you can argue it's bowser's creations. So idk he doesnt die just gets launched by the impact cause a canonball is likely heavier and has more mass than Mario.

So? Bro still goes "oof" for a 9-B (tbh they prob 9-A) attack,
Him not dying doesn't matter.
That last bit doesnt affect anything.

20: Super Mario RPG - A giant Bob-Omb crushes a boss the party was facing, and Mallow states that the explosion is a threat, and it does seemingly hurt them though in a toony way. - Tier 8-ish for the explosion at best.
So I’m not sure if you watched the whole clip but yes, Mallow does state the explosion is a threat. Sure, but please just show me where in the dialogue that Mallow, Geno, Or Mario indicates that it was hurting them or left them damaged. They are just covered in ashes or black smog.

The fact a comparable character says it's a threat to him?

21: Super Mario RPG - Mario is sent flying from Bowser's Castle to his home and is briefly KOd by this, or at least left dizzy - Tier 9 to 8 depending how you calc it.
He gets knocked out by Exor. You know, the big bad boss who Bowser and Mario had to fight against? Exor penetrated the castle and sent them flying. This is no Antifeat. I argue the odyssey cannonball feat is a BIGGER antifeat than this.

So? Exor doing it doesnt change the fact it's like, High 8-C.
Mario was still ko'd by an High 8-C attack, mind you, that's one of the game's better feats.

Ok so not only do Koops and Mario get back up like nothing happened, they just flap their arms while flying, the just make a sound while they land, if they really were hurt Koops would have said something.

Yeah ok sure.

And he gets back up like normal, no one if this was such an antifeat he would have not gone up wouldn’t he?

Again, them not being maimed or KILLED doesnt make something not an anti-feat.
Goku gets hurt by a bullet, but he didn't die. So is that not an anti-feat? Lmao **** no that's an insane anti-feat.

Ok first of all, Boomer who is a Pixl in Super Paper Mario. Who likely scales to Mario. (Why would an ordinary explosion mean anything to bowser and Mario planted boomer) So it's not an ordinary explosion like you'll think, the explosion makes bowbow fly and just bother him. Like an "woah who blew this up"

Hate this.
Him being a Pixl means nothing. Him scaling to Mario means nothing.
if the argument is Mario isnt 6-B or whatever, than scaling to him means nothing because his AP/Dura, is subject to these very feats.
The feat itself is only tier 8.
Mario planting him means absolutely nothing, idk why even mention it.
An explosion, is still an explosion, they dont have ki control.
Koops was pretty demonstrably dazzed by it, not "hmm yes, who blew my castle up?".

25: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (DX) - Mario & Luigi are knocked out by an explosion. This is a scripted event that will KO them no matter their health. 9-A-ish
While at 1HP Tanking the hit or what not. This could be argued as a 6-C / 3-C Fodder I guess? If you claim it to KO them then that's fine probably

Dog, they're at 147HP. They can be full health, it still KO's, it's a anti feat.
"Could be" is not "is", and if it's fodder, which have their OWN slew of anti-feats...

26: Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time - Luigi gets flattened by a large block falling on him - Tier 9.
Yes Luigi is flattened, but if you read closely the block is doing it’s job, supposed to alter its shape to match the size of the heart of the one who strikes it. How is this an antifeat? If Anything Luigi puts his energy to a block and the block emulated Luigi’s strength. Hell the star EVEN says "it can alter it's shape to match the size of the heart of the one who strikes it"

****** weird, tbh idk.

27: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (DX) - An explosion that destroys an airship injures and temporarily KOs Luigi - Tier 8-y
KO? He lays there, gets back up, no HP digit decreased. Also keep in mind that Fawful caused the explosion, he was blowing the ship up

Yeah, KO. Why do you think he lays there for a handful of seconds? Just because?
After a time-cut mind you, so was longer than it seems.
And yeah, with planted explosives?
That results in like, an 8-C/8-B blast?

And again, HP, game mechanic. Especially start of game, the fact they were dazzed by it is a anti-feat.

MARIO PARTY - The entire Mario Party series is chock-full of minigame anti-feats, there's genuinely dozens, most in the tier 9 range (a)
28: The first bomb ping pong whatever “antifeat” is ignoring striking strength.

As with the rest, it's the bomb's blast that hurts. Hell go frame by frame.

29: Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam - Roy and Mario smash a rock towards and above each other repeatedly and it only breaks after several exchanges. It falling also hurts Mario if he doesn't deflect it.
Not only does this literally contradict itself being an antifeat "smashing a rock towards each other" Roy is clearly throwing a large rock at Mario. Who is clearly the same tier as Mario.

Uh, soo?
The rock sure as hell ain't? That's why it's a anti-feat.
Secondly, as above, if what tier Mario even IS, is in contention, ya can't go "well he's this strong" to explain why it takes multiple hits to do a 9-B/9-A feat.

30: Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam - Mario, Green Mario and Flat Mario panic as a giant iron ball falls on them and knocks them out - 9-Aish
A Bowser ball, and you see the koopalings right? They probably threw it. Roy Ludwig Wendy and Larry who are. 6-C Characters by the way

So? it being owned by him means nothing. it's a giant steel ball.
Second, as above, saying "they 6-B" as an argument to why a, idk, 9-A? Feat knocked them out doesnt work, that's what makes it a anti feat dude.
And half the Koopalings dont even come from the place it fired from.
Also if they threw it it'd be LS.

31: Mario Power Tennis - Bowser, Wario and Waluigi all panic as a stadium-sized explosion happens, which knocks them all out. Roughly high tier 8/low tier 7
If you watched beforehand, Mario is doing striking strength here and is the reason why the explosion even happened. Which makes sense to knock out Wario Bowser and Waluigi.

Yeah no, the strike never even touches them. The BB hits the ground, does like 9-A damage, and the blast knocks them away, then shit just spirals out of control, and a 7-C blast knocks them out.

And as before, even if you weren't literally wrong, Mario being 6-B isn't an argument for why a anti-feat isnt a anti feat.

32: Luigi’s Mansion 2 A boss capable of harming Luigi is defeated by launching bombs into his mouth - 9-B maaaybe 9-A
Harm?? Harm?? Harm?? Luigi just falls, he loses NO HP. Not a single digit of HP. He does not even look phased. Also the boss could just have low durability.

No idea broken link, but HP isnt a good argument.

33: Paper Mario Origami King - Mario and Olivia are hurt by an elevator falling hard enough to destroy the doors near it - Tier 9
They just, fall, and take no damage. The most they do is dust themselves off.

No idea but again, HP, bad.
if they go "ack" or "oof" and shown to be dazed, still a anti-feat.

34: Super Mario 64 - Mario is hurt and staggered upon being fired against a wall hard enough to break it in Bob-Omb Battlefield. This is a scripted sequence and the only way to get the star without glitches. - 9-A?
I mean Mario throws himself, imagine shooting yourself out of a canon at a wall? That would hurt. This does not really make any sense to label as an Anti Feat.

Wtf???
No, he doesn't throw himself, the cannon does. And two, it's still a 9-B+ feat that knocks him on his ass for a few seconds.

35: New Super Mario Bros. DS - Bowser is infamously burned to the bone by lava.
He just turns into Dry Bowser and sinks because he can’t swim. I guess. And also, bowser is capable of surviving of being dunked into lava and jumping back in like nothing happened.

Yeah, he can survive lava, except here. That doesn't make it not a anti-feat, the fact it's contradictory is WHY it's a anti-feat. And, "just turns int-", man ya realize he ******* died right????

Bowser is likely a bad lava swimmer, but even then. If you count the other lava “antifeats” half of the time Bowser is in a weakened state,

We know he can swim, and not knowing how to swim doesn't change the fact he's burned and harmed by it.
And being weakened doesn't lower your durability, this ain't DBZ.

since he loses to Mario all the time. To where Lava is the finishing blow, even then, in Mario Kart characters often fall in lava and just have no effect.

Yeah optional, likely noncanon gameplay, is not the same as a dozen scripted canon losses.

This happens in EVERY Mario Kart title. There are currently 8 Mario titles where all of the characters (Including Bowser) can fall into Lava and not show any signs of scratch, Which would nullify all of the current Lava Arguments.

Scripted canon losses >>> being bad at video game.

Even just ONE scripted lava dunk supercedes all gameplay dubious canon lava dunks.

Hell . We even see that Bowser is not completely evaporated or killed by lava. And bowser returns not burned or completely hopeless. (Except that his plan fails and he mourns it)

Yeah, ok. But, one won't change the fact he gets hurt and even dies to it 10x as often.

41: Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam - Mario, Luigi and the other Mario panic and run at the sight of giant papercraft creations falling on them - Paper doesn't fall like that so hard to estimate
This would not even count as an anti feat, anyone would run away if they saw a giant object falling. Literally so many characters would run away. Also these were weapons made to destroy enemies.

Yeah, but WHY do they run and panic? Missing the point.

42-44: Super Mario 64 - Bowser is defeated three times by being thrown into small bombs. - 9-B

Again it just once again hurts when Bowser is thrown into stuff by Mario. Its just striking strength really.

Literally wrong, as before.

45: Super Mario Odyssey - The entire ending sequence of Odyssey is a giant anti-feat, Mario needs Bowser's strength to get past large stone walls, and the collapse of the cave threatens to kill all three,
Its just that the game wants you to break and beat the game as Bowser. Nothing flatout tells us that Mario can not break the walls in time before the cave kills all of them.

Doesn't it actually say that though if you idle to long without possessing him?

46: Paper Mario: Origami King - Olivia was knocked out by that same boulder falling on her - Tier 9/8
Bobby is a partner. Who could reasonably scale to Mario in base form at the very least. Of course Olivia who also scales to Mario would be hurt by an explosion who scales to Mario Should also Mention that Bobby literally says “She’s ok!”

Ugh... Again, going "erm he's actually 6-B so not an anti-feat", doesn't make it not an anti-feat, the fact it's a anti-feat is WHY.
Also doesn't change the fact that boulder falling is only like, 9-A?

47: Mario Party Cast can not break a large rock of
In SuperStar Saga, Galaxy, Mario can break crystals, this is a party game so everyone is gonna be breaking stuff in a slower faster and using such as an anti feat does not truly compute or seems entirely reasonable when outside of party those anti feats do not exist. The rocks break eventually either way

Actually, in those games it takes him a few hits to usually, like big crystal in galaxy takes 2-3 hits.
Also not an argument, the minigame itself is based upon said feat to begin with.

48: Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story (DX) - Fails to destroy a particularly tough boulder. Tier 9
I mean, he does, but again he is capable of punching large rocks and boulders either way. However,,,, Bowser is in a rather nerfed state

The rock he fails to break looks to have over twice the volume, and rocks can vary in strength.
Him doing a 9-A boulder punch, doesnt mean him failing to break a harder and larger rock aint a antifeat.

Also, in Inside Story, its quite noticable how depowered Bowser is. Considering he eats a mushroom that fawful provided to him, which while gives bowser the ability to inhale. It has it's drawbacks. Such as KO'ing Bowser. It does not end there, even in mid battle bowser states the weird mushroom makes him feel cruddy. Which would explain why bowser wouldn't be able to withstand the following anti feats.

Why would it lower his dura by magnitudes? Feeling like shit wouldnt make a ant rip your head off?
Also a lot of assumptions, he aint weakened for the whole game my dude.

53: Super Mario Bros 3 - Bowser is defeated by a long fall. Note that the result for this might be higher than a generic "max fall speed impact" feat due to Bowser's massive size and weight. - Tier 9. Again common feat so let's go through 'em, with the exception of falling feats that cause destruction as they are their own, more impressive feat.
Not sure why is this listed as an antifeat where it just as stated more than once. Incaps Bowser. BFR but not really.

Bro, he can jump like, 1000ft. Ya know that right?

54: ""New"" Super Mario Bros. U - Bowser is initially defeated by a fall, before Kamek powers him up.
Same argument as 53 applies to here.

As before.

And, thats just about done with the AntiFeats debunk. Quite a lot huh?

Like, 3 were fair.

i disagree with 99% of this, vehemently, hell some just straight up wrong if ya go frame by frame.

 

[Chariot190]

also my back hurts

 

[DimeUhDozen]

I'll do my best to try and play devil's advocate here although the anti feats grossly outweigh the ones that don't count.

2. The moon fall is still something he takes no visible damage from and he gets right back up like nothing happened. There's a major cut between the fall and the moon so... maybe something we can attribute to fatigue? He did just fight Bowser after all.

4. I wouldn't say Bowser was defeated by the NSMBW fall as we don't even see how he reacted to the fall upon impact, nor give any cries of pain when meeting the floor. He just fell a long distance and Bowser famously forgets that he can fly sometimes.

5. I would not say that the dunking in lava is what did Bowser in. What Mario did with the button is destroy the floor, causing Bowser to sink quite a distance and being unable to get back up. The "not a good swimmer" theory could hold some weight. I don't actually remember any scenes with Bowser specifically swimming. Maybe in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games and Super Paper Mario but one is non-canon and the other is... just straight up another Bowser.

6. We also never see Bowser hurt by the fall and even then, he gets right back up once he's powered up by the Koopalings. There's nothing that would state that this magic has healing properties anyway.

11. The castle falling feat comes after his defeat in New Super Mario Bros Wii and the magic growing spell seems to have worn off, and the battle has left him fatigued. He's already knocked out and not in the best condition. Plus, we don't even hear any pained cries from the Koopalings, who are in prime condition and should have been hurt by the castle as well. Why do we only hear Bowser's groans and not theirs?

13. Alright. So. I don't think Super Mario Run is canon. There's nothing to suggest that it is.

22. I think the moon feat was seen as just a general discomfort in being launched onto the moon and getting stuck in the rocks. This doesn't rough up Mario and his pals one bit and he gets back up seconds later.

23. Again, the Luigi space feat is seen as general discomfort of being launched into outer space and landing. Even then the noise he makes is small, kind of like someone just pinched you. Not like "OOOWW, I'M WRITHING IN PAIN, OOOOW!" and yeah, he gets back up pretty quickly too.

That's all I got for now.

 

[Chariot190]

I'll do my best to try and play devil's advocate here although the anti feats grossly outweigh the ones that don't count.

Why play devil's advocate? That only works if there's an actual basis.

2. The moon fall is still something he takes no visible damage from and he gets right back up like nothing happened. There's a major cut between the fall and the moon so... maybe something we can attribute to fatigue? He did just fight Bowser after all.

So? The fact he was dazed for even a second, and not even the 1st time in that game (the start does knock his ass out for awhile, prob High 8-C). Being stunned, even for a second, is still a anti-feat.

4. I wouldn't say Bowser was defeated by the NSMBW fall as we don't even see how he reacted to the fall, nor give any cries of pain upon meeting the floor. He just fell a long distance and Bowser famously forgets that he can fly sometimes.

So the argument is he just "forgot" he can fly, jump, climb, teleport, etc?
Ehhhh, he was defeated, that's the intent behind the boss fight, and i can just as easily grab like, a enterbrain guide scan that says "to DEFEAT bows" or something. Common sense lad.

5. I would not say that the dunking in lava is what did Bowser in. What Mario did with the button is destroy the floor, causing Bowser to sink quite a distance and being unable to get back up.

Yeah, and such a fact does him in.

The "not a good swimmer" theory could hold some weight. I don't actually remember any scenes with Bowser specifically swimming. Maybe in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games and Super Paper Mario but one is non-canon and the other is... just straight up another Bowser.

Mario Party, RPG games, he HAS swam before, are we really going "he cant swim that's why loses"?

6. We also never see Bowser hurt by the fall and even then, he gets right back up once he's powered up by the Koopalings. There's nothing that would state that this magic has healing properties anyway.

There ya go. He gets back up, after he gets powered up by magic. Do you really think he'd have gotten up if he wasnt given a second wind?

11. The castle falling feat comes after his defeat in New Super Mario Bros Wii and the magic growing spell seems to have worn off, and the battle has left him fatigued.

So? This aint DBZ, if he's 6-B, that is less than a stiff breeze to him. Actually, the gap is bigger than you and a breeze. By a lot actually.
And being fatigued doesnt lower dura.

He's already knocked out and not in the best condition.

if he's 6-B, that wouldn't have done anything even if he was bleeding out and had all his limbs chopped off.

Plus, we don't even hear any pained cries from the Koopalings, who should have been hurt by the castle as well. Why do we only hear Bowser's groans and not theirs?

Because he's the focus of that scene?
Hell, maybe they were knocked out? Dont matter, he was hurt by it.

13. Alright. So. I don't think Super Mario Run is canon. There's nothing to suggest that it is.

isnt it literally listed in the timeline

22. I think the moon feat was seen as just a general discomfort in being launched onto the moon and getting stuck in the rocks. This doesn't rough up Mario and his pals one bit and he gets back up seconds later.

Koops and the pals actually stagger a bit but yeah.

23. Again, the Luigi space feat is seen as general discomfort of being launched into outer space and landing. Even then the noise he makes is small, kind of like someone just pinched you. Not like "OOOWW, I'M WRITHING IN PAIN, OOOOW!" and yeah, he gets back up pretty quickly too.

That's all I got for now.

yeah but he also landed on clouds, not that matters.

Yeah no, if you have to start making assumptions to handwave stuff, or just go "yeah he wasnt actually hurt" (come on man, i get it but we both know the intent was to beat him even if you don't want to grab a guide), that not gonna work. The moon stuff i kinda get, but like 5 listed anti-feats of like 80, which in of itself doesnt even list a few hundred, aint a good sign.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Why play devil's advocate? That only works if there's an actual basis.

Because I'm stubborn and life loves to give me no-win scenarios. If there's even a sliver of a chance, I'll try just for the principle of it. That being said, this is a no-win scenario and I'm making a jackass out of myself for even trying.

 

[Starsprite53]

Canonicity things

Eh, Run and 64DS are indeed canon, with the latter being a sequel to the original.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think people are expecting me to write up a big list of counterpoints given i'm The Mario Downgrade Guy but honestly everyone else has got it covered. Most of these are just making up weird headcanons for why a character was obviously hurt by something that shouldn't have hurt them if they were tier 3 (Some of which I addressed in the OG thread- being hurt or tired already doesn't mean you'll suddenly be harmed by shit trillions of times under your durability). Like if you want me to go and respond to all of them sure but it just feels like a waste of time for everyone.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Eh, Run and 64DS are indeed canon, with the latter being a sequel to the original.

Yeah, you’re right.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm with Chariot and Armor, a lot of these debunks go against common logic and are flights of fancy to try and find out ways for which the feats may or may not be valid based on whats ifs and compromises to try and circumvent what are 95% clear cut feats with little to no room for interpretations.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

just straight up wrong if ya go frame by frame.

I'll get to replying to these later today, just woke up like 15 minutes ago. So I'll have to do some tasks before I reply. You do have some validity and good concerns don't get me wrong

Cut the attitude as if everything you'll say is objective.

What? Isn't that the point of CRT's? I'm showing no sass, snark, please define the attitude cause I'm incredibly lost. Quite literally engaging in good faith but somehow this gets seen as attitude. Whatever moving on.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah disagree FRA lol

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I think the means by which tier 6 rankings were applied based on the anti-feats was incorrect, so regardless of the process of this thread, I like the intention behind the conclusion. However, this doesn't count as a vote, since the process is still important and I will still address it anyway. Some of the below are referring to whether or not your points are correct, while some of it else is giving advice or my own takes on the point.

Section 1: The Reason why you're here
1-3: Super Mario Odyssey - Mario and Bowser are KO'D by a long fall at the end of the final boss fight. Mario is also staggered by being knocked off New Donk City Hall by Mechawiggler.

So if you skip over the video yes it looks like the fall hurt bowser, however. Let's get one thing out of the way. Bowser was ALREADY incapped / KO'd before hand. It's quite hard to believe that this got not looked over. So there's issue one. Off to an interesting start. Also, "Mario being KO'D" by a fall where he literally loses no HP so throw the antifeat out the window.
Lastly, the Mechabug staggering Mario literally should not qualify as an antifeat, the site currently scale the Mechabug to the same tier as Base Mario. This makes no sense to be an Antifeat. (Really I debunked 3 Antifeats already off to a great start)

The first point is correct.

The second point refers to HP, a game mechanic, so you'd need to write more than that to demonstrate its supposed significance. In a game design perspective, it would have been unfair for Mario to take damage from an unavoidable cutscene in the climax of the game, when he can only take a maximum of 3 hits without extra support, but this doesn't change how Mario was knocked out by the event. This probably means the game doesn't count getting knocked out from story events as taking damage, even though it should count in a canon perspective given how Mario ended up.

As for the third point, I think Armorchompy's point wasn't to emphasize the interaction between Mario and Mechawiggler, but rather how Mario was bothered by his impact with the ground from falling off the top of the building, and it happened in a cutscene. The impact animation is the same as when Mario falls from a high place in gameplay, where he doesn't take damage from it, but HP still is only a game mechanic, so I can't stop here. Fall damage in gameplay is very inconsistent in the Super Mario series anyway, so since the cutscene in question references gameplay, I think Armorchompy would be better off using more reliable evidence than this one.

4: New Super Mario Bros. Wii - Bowser is initially defeated by a fall, before Kamek powers him up
Why would Loud Thud be an Anti Feat? Bowser has never shown us that he can climb huge walls, think of BFR where except the bridge is the stage and Mario just took the bridge away from him so he's not killed. This has nothing to do with bowser's durability what so ever.

6: “New" Super Mario Bros. 2 - Bowser is initially defeated by a fall, before the Koopalings power him up
By a fall? This is not a great example that could have been used considering Mario with the gold flower bopped Bowser…? Even then a fall just incaps. Not kill. We been over this already less than 5 minutes ago

53: Super Mario Bros 3 - Bowser is defeated by a long fall. Note that the result for this might be higher than a generic "max fall speed impact" feat due to Bowser's massive size and weight. - Tier 9. Again common feat so let's go through 'em, with the exception of falling feats that cause destruction as they are their own, more impressive feat.
Not sure why is this listed as an antifeat where it just as stated more than once. Incaps Bowser. BFR but not really.

54: ""New"" Super Mario Bros. U - Bowser is initially defeated by a fall, before Kamek powers him up.
Same argument as 53 applies to here.

Fair enough. We don't know exactly what happened off-screen, and being defeated by falling to a lower place doesn't necessarily mean being damaged. I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser got damaged though.

5: New Super Mario Bros Wii - Giant Bowser can walk just fine in ankle-deep lava, but is burned by it when dunked in it completely.
Quite interesting, bowser is just sinking really, he is not really a good lava swimmer really. He looks just about the same as the castle falling on him. He just sinks with the Lava really. And even then he does not have himself turn into Dry Bowser.

All that seemed to happen was the lava got re-directed elsewhere and caused Bowser to fall as his space lacked lava for him to keep himself up. I honestly never understood exactly the reason why Bowser gets defeated here. It seems a little vague to me.

7: Super Mario World - Mario is hurt by an explosion that levels Roy's castle - Tier 8
Hurt…? If he is so hurt why didn’t Mario die…? This is just Mario having black smog on his face…? It’s just a gag like when someone like Wile E Coyote gets black smog on (inb4 someone says this is whataboutism)

8: Super Mario World - Mario needs multiple attacks to destroy Morton, Lemmy and Wendy's castles - Tier 9/8
I dont know if this is an antifeat or struggle, these cutscenes are clearly meant to be gags. Cause really Mario would not be as tall as the castle. Which in game, the castles are much much bigger than Mario.

I believe the castle demolition scenes are gags with no substance beyond being toon force demonstration. Mario got damaged by an explosion for comedic effect but survived it even in his small form because cartoons can survive everything, supposedly. Mario turning a castle into pieces with his classic overhead hammer swinging animation is a cool reference for those in the know, and Mario obtaining a mysterious magic mop from off-screen to erase the castle is so random it's amusing, both being instances where the castle got stomped despite it taking multiple movements to do so, and both being non-sequiturs as they provoke the question of why Mario didn't use these unbalanced benefits during any other circumstances in the game when he could just grab them from off-screen on a whim. These scenes don't operate in normal logic and consistency.

9-10: New Super Mario Bros. DS - Bowser falls hard enough to kick up a lot of dust and small fragments, and this knocks him out. - Tier 8
Also, the dust and small fragments stuff happens, yes, however. Knocking him out is just a possible one, could just be tired since Mario can KO Bowser with fireballs in NSMBDS

Armorchompy was specifically referring to the event that Bowser gets defeated by Mario pressing the button that removes the bridge from under Bowser. It's true that Mario can directly defeat Bowser with fireballs, but this doesn't prevent the other option that Armorchompy mentioned from existing.

11: New Super Mario Bros Wii - Bowser's castle falls on him in the ending. He shouts in fear as it happens and then yells in pain afterwards, - Tier 9.
So if anything yeah Bowser has the most antifeats sure you know what. Either way his sounds comes off as tired or too bothered to care.

The sounds of despair, fitting for being crushed by a castle right after a grand plan was undone.

12: Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour - Bowser, Wario and Waluigi all panic as a castle-sized explosion happens, which bruises them. - Tier 8
Look and observe carefully, Mario knocked the bomb and forced Bowser to drop a bomb. He gave his force to the golf ball which strikes Wario and Waluigi with his own force, while also hitting bowser. They were bruised already. Huge oversight if you ask anyone.

That's correct.

13: Super Mario Run - Bowser is defeated by tossing Bob-Ombs back at him.
Oh yeah lets ignore striking strength then. What is gonna hurt more? A 5 year old throwing a baseball at you with full force or a grown man throwing a baseball at you with full force. The SMR Bowser “Antifeat” is so comparable to the baseball one I made just now.

Fair enough.

14: Super Mario 64 - Bowser is defeated three times by being thrown into small bombs. - 9-B
Or it just hurts when bowser is thrown into stuff by Mario. Who is juiced up by Stars. (In 64 Mario needs 8 Stars to reach and beat bowser)

42-44: Super Mario 64 - Bowser is defeated three times by being thrown into small bombs. - 9-B

Again it just once again hurts when Bowser is thrown into stuff by Mario. Its just striking strength really.

That's not entirely correct, since Mario can't defeat Bowser in that game by using throwing alone, and Bowser must touch the explosions to be defeated.

15: Super Mario Galaxy 2 - Bowser Jr. is scared of his Boomsday Machine's imminent explosion, and yells in pain once it does blow up - Tier 9
Scared of a grandstar? Thats… quite reasonable to be afraid of, one of the most powerful stars.

Armorchompy was referring to the explosion itself that happened once the machine was defeated. A Grand Star was also released after the explosion, due to the machine having contained one, but that doesn't mean the explosion had the Grand Star's power.

16: Super Mario Galaxy 2 - Bowser visibly hurts his own hand by punching a small meteorite - Tier 9/8
He is just pulling his hand out. What do you mean. Just. What? This is just Bowser pulling out his hand, nothing should indicate in the slightest that bowser was harmed

I can see where Armorchompy was coming from, but you're right about this being far too vague. A better anti-feat claim would be that Bowser's punch didn't one-shot the small meteorite.

17: Super Mario 3D World - Bowser's car is damaged and destroyed by bombs - 9-B
Again this completely ignores striking strength since Mario Luigi Toad Peach and Rosalina are capable of hurting bowser without amps. It’s also explosives and not statics entirely.

I don't think striking strength applies this time, at least not in the linked clip, since it looks more like Mario's attacks reflect the bombs back at Bowser in a tossing way so the explosions can reach Bowser. This is in contrast to when Mario does something similar during Super Mario Run, where the Bob-Omb zooms straight ahead of Mario instead of slowly moving in an arc angle.

18: Super Mario Odyssey - Is injured by a beam from a comparable foe that breaks, but doesn't destroy, the Odyssey - 9-B unless you wanna argue the Odyssey is super-durable which it could be but there isn't much evidence to.
“Injured” You see, no scratch on either Cappy or Mario. And either way this is probably another case of a Boss being a fodder 6-C or 3-C whatever you wanna call it. King Bob-Omb, Lava Piranha. Goomboss are rated 6-C As well so scaling the dragon from odyssey to 6-C Is not surreal at all. All that was done was disabling the odyssey ship. All was done was shock Mario with likely electricity manipulation.

Armorchompy described this one as debatable, so it's already not reliable compared to his other points in the anti-feat compilation.

19: Super Mario Odyssey - Mario tries to dodge and is eventually “hurt” by cannonballs - 9-B
Good ol chum, lemme tell you, he just gets knocked away. Not entirely sure about hurt, also you can argue it's bowser's creations. So idk he doesnt die just gets launched by the impact cause a canonball is likely heavier and has more mass than Mario.

I didn't see the cannonballs even touch Mario. It looked like he was barely dodging the explosions, and getting pushed away by the (invisible) explosion shockwaves because his close proximity while he was already running in the direction he was getting pushed in.

20: Super Mario RPG - A giant Bob-Omb crushes a boss the party was facing, and Mallow states that the explosion is a threat, and it does seemingly hurt them though in a toony way. - Tier 8-ish for the explosion at best.
So I’m not sure if you watched the whole clip but yes, Mallow does state the explosion is a threat. Sure, but please just show me where in the dialogue that Mallow, Geno, Or Mario indicates that it was hurting them or left them damaged. They are just covered in ashes or black smog.

Well, like Armorchompy wrote, it was in a toony way. Mario doesn't normally tank the launch force of a nearby explosion while still being left charred, so this example doesn't have much merit in terms of what's consistent.

21: Super Mario RPG - Mario is sent flying from Bowser's Castle to his home and is briefly KOd by this, or at least left dizzy - Tier 9 to 8 depending how you calc it.
He gets knocked out by Exor. You know, the big bad boss who Bowser and Mario had to fight against? Exor penetrated the castle and sent them flying. This is no Antifeat. I argue the odyssey cannonball feat is a BIGGER antifeat than this.

Neither of the two are correct. Mario landed on a clothing hook next to his bed and he got stuck on it until he jumped off of it. He shook his head to get a grip after the flight, and then proceeded to move as normal. He didn't get knocked out and the only reason he was perhaps briefly "dizzy" was because of the intense launch, so it's an anti-feat for his perception speed, not his strength.

22: Saper Mario: The Thousand Year Door - Mario is shot to the Moon with a cannon and is not only distressed as he flies but hurt by the landing, as evidenced by the noise he makes, and so are his partners - Tier 7.
Ok so not only do Koops and Mario get back up like nothing happened, they just flap their arms while flying, the just make a sound while they land, if they really were hurt Koops would have said something.

Yeah, like the previous paragraph, it looked like they were bothered by the launch yet they didn't even get dented upon landing, so it's an anti-feat for perception speed rather than strength.

23: Super Paper Mario - Luigi is shot into space and falling down hurts him - Tier 7.
And he gets back up like normal, no one if this was such an antifeat he would have not gone up wouldn’t he?

That's true, all that happened was Luigi didn't stick the landing, so it's another anti-feat for perception speed rather than strength.

24: Super Paper Mario - Bowser is stunned and groggy after an explosion that obliterates his castle
Ok first of all, Boomer who is a Pixl in Super Paper Mario. Who likely scales to Mario. (Why would an ordinary explosion mean anything to bowser and Mario planted boomer) So it's not an ordinary explosion like you'll think, the explosion makes bowbow fly and hurt him,

I think Armorchompy meant that Boomer caused a chain reaction of multiple explosions, and the castle sized explosion that wasn't directly from Boomer is the anti-feat.

25: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (DX) - Mario & Luigi are knocked out by an explosion. This is a scripted event that will KO them no matter their health. 9-A-ish
While at 1HP Tanking the hit or what not. This could be argued as a 6-C / 3-C Fodder I guess? If you claim it to KO them, then why do they survive at the end of the clip? Only argument you can make is that it still hurts the duo.

The bomb producing the same effect when the Bros. are at 1 HP and when the Bros. are at maximum HP is a self-contradictory gameplay balance feature. I'm not sure if this is Mario level fodder or not, and you don't seem confident in the claim either.

26: Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time - Luigi gets flattened by a large block falling on him - Tier 9.
Yes Luigi is flattened, but if you read closely the block is doing it’s job, supposed to alter its shape to match the size of the heart of the one who strikes it. How is this an antifeat? If Anything Luigi puts his energy to a block and the block emulated Luigi’s strength. Hell the star EVEN says "it can alter it's shape to match the size of the heart of the one who strikes it"

Matching the size of the heart who strikes it doesn't necessarily mean its power level also matches the person who strikes it.

27: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (DX) - An explosion that destroys an airship injures and temporarily KOs Luigi - Tier 8-y
KO? He lays there, gets back up, no HP digit decreased. Also keep in mind that Fawful caused the explosion, he was blowing the ship up

Fair enough.

MARIO PARTY - The entire Mario Party series is chock-full of minigame anti-feats, there's genuinely dozens, most in the tier 9 range (a)
28: The first bomb ping pong whatever “antifeat” is ignoring striking strength.

That's incorrect. In the clip, Bowser got hurt by the bomb exploding after its parachute already stopped the momentum Rosalina's strike had caused.

29: Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam - Roy and Mario smash a rock towards and above each other repeatedly and it only breaks after several exchanges. It falling also hurts Mario if he doesn't deflect it.
Not only does this literally contradict itself being an antifeat "smashing a rock towards each other" Roy is clearly throwing a large rock at Mario. Who is clearly the same tier as Mario.

I'm pretty sure Armorchompy's point is that Roy having considered the rock as a good weapon in the first place is an anti-feat, Mario not having one-shot the rock with his hammer is an anti-feat, and Roy not one-shotting the rock with his fists is an anti-feat, because the rock isn't durable enough for that to have happened unless the characters were portrayed as tier 9 in the interaction.

30: Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam - Mario, Green Mario and Flat Mario panic as a giant iron ball falls on them and knocks them out - 9-Aish
A Bowser ball, and you see the koopalings right? They probably threw it. Roy Ludwig Wendy and Larry who are. 6-C Characters by the way

Maybe.

31: Mario Power Tennis - Bowser, Wario and Waluigi all panic as a stadium-sized explosion happens, which knocks them all out. Roughly high tier 8/low tier 7
If you watched beforehand, Mario is doing striking strength here and is the reason why the explosion even happened. Which makes sense to knock out Wario Bowser and Waluigi.

That's incorrect. Mario's strike is what provoked the events to play out, but the actual explosion in question stems from the Bob-Ombs that were in Bowser's ship, which exploded by the ship falling relatively slowly. Though, considering how almost everything in the location was undamaged and the nature of the scene was comedic, this could have been an illogical toon force moment rather than a testament to consistency.

32: Luigi’s Mansion 2 A boss capable of harming Luigi is defeated by launching bombs into his mouth - 9-B maaaybe 9-A
Harm?? Harm?? Harm?? Luigi just falls, he loses NO HP. Not a single digit of HP. He does not even look phased. Also the boss could just have low durability.

Well, it's true that in the clip Luigi didn't seem take damage, but that's because he shot a bomb just in time, and I bet there is a way for him to take damage in the battle otherwise. Even though I have played this game before, I don't vividly remember a lot of the small details like this, and I'm not in the mood to look it up right now, so correct me if I'm wrong.

33: Paper Mario Origami King - Mario and Olivia are hurt by an elevator falling hard enough to destroy the doors near it - Tier 9
They just, fall, and take no damage.

I agree. It looks like a stamina anti-feat for Olivia, and Mario was practically unbothered aside from the dust he wiped off.

34: Super Mario 64 - Mario is hurt and staggered upon being fired against a wall hard enough to break it in Bob-Omb Battlefield. This is a scripted sequence and the only way to get the star without glitches. - 9-A?
I mean Mario throws himself, imagine shooting yourself out of a canon at a wall? That would hurt. This does not really make any sense to label as an Anti Feat.

Mario gets shot out of the cannon independent from his own power level, you acknowledge that this would hurt, and yet you somehow think it doesn't make sense to consider it as tier 9? If you mean "Mario throws himself" as in he used his own power level, then where's the proof of this? I've never seen such proof before, so it'd be important for you to present it if it exists.

35: New Super Mario Bros. DS - Bowser is infamously burned to the bone by lava.
He just turns into Dry Bowser and sinks because he can’t swim. I guess. And also, bowser is capable of surviving of being dunked into lava and jumping back in like nothing happened.

Sinking and not knowing how to swim doesn't turn a character into a skeleton. Getting burned by lava does. While it's true that, as you demonstrated, there is also evidence of Bowser being unaffected by lava, this doesn't stop the anti-feat from existing and thus being worthy of getting listed in an anti-feat compilation, so the best course of action would be to recommend that the inconsistency should be acknowledged in the blog post, or recommend someone to write a "feats versus anti-feats" blog post.

Lava Stuff (See Below)
Super Mario Bros 1/The Lost Levels/All-Stars - Bowser is defeated by being dunked into lava. This is obviously a very common thing among the Mario games but it is still an anti-feat, ultimately durability equals to similar levels of heat resistance and if this is the primary way to defeat Bowser, well, he should be able to survive that if he was 3-C. Tier 9 heat resistance. Since this kind of anti-feat is all the same I'm just gonna list them all now. There's a bit of inconsistency in that it sometimes just hurts him, and sometimes he's straight-up killed by it, but lava can vary in temperature.

• 36: New Super Mario Bros Wii - Giant Bowser can walk just fine in ankle-deep lava, but is burned by it when robdunked in it completely.
• 37: Super Mario 3D Land - Bowser is defeated by falling into lava.
• 38: Super Mario 3D Land - Dry Bowser is defeated when dunked in lava.
• 39: Yoshi's Tilt 'N Tumble - Bowser is injured by falling in lava.
• 40: Super Mario Bros - Bowser is defeated by being dunked into lava. This is obviously a very common thing among the Mario games but it is still an anti-feat, ultimately durability equals to similar levels of heat resistance and if this is the primary way to defeat Bowser, well, he should be able to survive that if he was 3-C. Tier 9 heat resistance. Since this kind of anti-feat is all the same I'm just gonna list them all now. There's a bit of inconsistency in that it sometimes just hurts him, and sometimes he's straight-up killed by it, but lava can vary in temperature.

Bowser is likely a bad lava swimmer, but even then. If you count the other lava “antifeats” half of the time Bowser is in a weakened state, since he loses to Mario all the time. To where Lava is the finishing blow, even then, in Mario Kart characters often fall in lava and just have no effect. This happens in EVERY Mario Kart title. There are currently 8 Mario titles where all of the characters (Including Bowser) can fall into Lava and not show any signs of damage. Which would nullify all of the current Lava Arguments. Hell . We even see that Bowser is not completely evaporated or killed by lava. And bowser returns not burned or completely hopeless. (Except that his plan fails and he mourns it)

Lacking the skill to swim doesn't change how Bowser gets hurt by lava. Bowser can swim in water, so maybe he can't swim in lava because, y'know, it hurts him. Also, there need to be better evidence that Bowser fighting Mario weakens him to the point where lava can be an option as a "finishing blow" in the first place. In accordance with the previous paragraph I wrote in this message, there is indeed evidence of Bowser not being hurt by lava as well, and it should be used optimally.

41: Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam - Mario, Luigi and the other Mario panic and run at the sight of giant papercraft creations falling on them - Paper doesn't fall like that so hard to estimate
This would not even count as an anti feat, anyone would run away if they saw a giant object falling. Literally so many characters would run away. Also these were weapons made to destroy enemies.

I think Armorchompy's argument is that the Bros. were scared of being harmed by the weight of the big papercrafted creations. I agree that this is vague as an anti-feat though, because, in the case that they could survive it, it would've been awkward for the Bros. to have just stood there and tanked it while damaging the underneath of the papercrafted creations that are their own tools.

45: Super Mario Odyssey - The entire ending sequence of Odyssey is a giant anti-feat, Mario needs Bowser's strength to get past large stone walls, and the collapse of the cave threatens to kill all three,
Its just that the game wants you to break and beat the game as Bowser. Nothing flatout tells us that Mario can not break the walls in time before the cave kills all of them.

While it's possible that the game could've prevented Mario from breaking rocks solely to force the gameplay to involve Mario controlling Bowser, the supposed anti-feat is consistent with many other events in the game, such as Mario being required to break rocks with Chain Chomps in order to progress and obtain Power Moons, With that told, it's also true that Chain Chomps are considered as fodder compared to Mario by the VS Battles Wiki, but I'm uncertain of how canon that sentiment truly is for Chain Chomps that are a lot bigger than Mario.

46: Paper Mario: Origami King - Olivia was knocked out by that same boulder falling on her - Tier 9/8
Bobby is a partner. Who could reasonably scale to Mario in base form at the very least. Of course Olivia who also scales to Mario would be hurt by an explosion who scales to Mario Should also Mention that Bobby literally says “She’s ok!”

The partner is specifically a generic Bob-Omb named "Bob-Omb" who has an interesting place in the story and who Olivia mistakenly addressed using other names such as "Bobby." This Bomb-Omb doesn't have any "special moves" and was worried that he would merely get in Mario's way, and the Bob-Omb said he promised he wouldn't slow Mario down, yet the Bob-Omb did accidentally do that and he was sorry for Mario needing to go out of his way to save his life from his face being planted in the ground. The boulder having been too tough for Mario and Olivia to do anything about and "Bobby" needing to sacrifice himself for the adventure to progress is an important part of the story.

47: Mario Party Cast can not break a large rock of
In SuperStar Saga, Galaxy, Mario can break crystals, this is a party game so everyone is gonna be breaking stuff in a slower faster and using such as an anti feat does not truly compute or seems entirely reasonable when outside of party those anti feats do not exist. The rocks break eventually either way

So, in other words, you acknowledge that the characters were portrayed as not strong enough to break the rocks in one hit, but you don't think this is significant because it merely took place in a Mario Party game, and other games portray Mario as capable of breaking tougher materials in one hit. The one problem with this is that the VS Battles Wiki, and many people who like battleboarding about the Super Mario series otherwise, don't consider Mario Party games as mere supplementary evidence.

48: Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story (DX) - Fails to destroy a particularly tough boulder. Tier 9
I mean, he does, but again he is capable of punching large rocks and boulders either way.
49: Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story (DX) - Bowser is rendered unconscious and nearly killed by his own mechanized castle falling on him. In fact all giant battles start this way, with Bowser near death or at least unconscious, so let's get them out of the way - From tier 9 to tier 7
50: Nearly killed by Tower of Yikk stomping on him
51: Nearly killed by the Fawful Express smashing him against a wall and is, as a bonus, hurt when he's rammed through large rocks.
52 Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story (DX) - Bowser is briefly rendered unconscious by the explosion of a large group of Bob-Ombs

Also, in Inside Story, its quite noticable how depowered Bowser is. Considering he eats a mushroom that fawful provided to him, which while gives bowser the ability to inhale. It has it's drawbacks. Such as KO'ing Bowser. It does not end there, even in mid battle bowser states the weird mushroom makes him feel cruddy. Which would explain why bowser wouldn't be able to withstand the following anti feats.

Despite Bowser having eaten the bad mushroom, the nerf wasn't enough to make him weaker than other comparable characters who lacked the nerf.

And, thats just about done with the AntiFeats debunk. Quite a lot huh?

Section 2: But as a man once said, but wait! There's more!.
Toad’s profile not having a tier 4 key is gross considering he can use stars. Not only can Toad weld stars but Birdo, Shy Guy, and even Koopa Troopa can as well.

I haven't seen those four characters use Power Stars offensively, but they have the potential to, so I suppose that might count as something.

I think people are expecting me to write up a big list of counterpoints given i'm The Mario Downgrade Guy but honestly everyone else has got it covered. Most of these are just making up weird headcanons for why a character was obviously hurt by something that shouldn't have hurt them if they were tier 3 (Some of which I addressed in the OG thread- being hurt or tired already doesn't mean you'll suddenly be harmed by shit trillions of times under your durability). Like if you want me to go and respond to all of them sure but it just feels like a waste of time for everyone.

"Most of these," so, not all of them, meaning it would still be responsible of you to update your blog post to remove some of the points that might be stretches. If I were the one who wrote the blog post, I would separate the anti-feats into two categories, those being ones that are solid evidence and ones that are more ambiguous and only listed for the sake of trying not to miss anything.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

I think people are expecting me to write up a big list of counterpoints

If you feel as if you want to or feel any obligation towards. I won't stop you. I'm sure we can discuss.

Mario Party, RPG games, he HAS swam before, are we really going "he cant swim that's why loses"?

For Party, I did find footage where Bowser "swam" In not entirely deep lava, it, just dips half of his legs in. Not enough to where he is incapable of doing anything. Lava does not kill per say it's just that he can not swim. Also, might be because I don't play the RPG's or Party games like that. I do not recall where Bowser swam in lava. So I'll like to be shown examples

but like 5 listed anti-feats of like 80,

*65. Try to double check since it's easy to just say this and people will believe you with no hesitation.

Bro, he can jump like, 1000ft. Ya know that right?

Also it has been confirmed that Mario 3 is a stage play. So it would explain why bowser did not get back up, likely following the script.

There ya go. He gets back up, after he gets powered up by magic. Do you really think he'd have gotten up if he wasnt given a second wind?

No cause he is incapped, not full on KO'D

13. Alright. So. I don't think Super Mario Run is canon. There's nothing to suggest that it is.

Run is canon, as long as Nintendo develops and publishes such it's canon. (Paper Mario does not apply on vsbw thats its own thing) Can Nintendo make a good Mobile Mario title ?!?!?!?!

Because he's the focus of that scene?
Hell, maybe they were knocked out? Dont matter, he was hurt by it.

Regardless I still think its worth bringing up the koopalings cause they are the ones who are not phased but bowser is somehow?

Ugh... Again, going "erm he's actually 6-B so not an anti-feat", doesn't make it not an anti-feat, the fact it's a anti-feat is WHY.

You're really really misunderstanding and twisting what I said. Big time, Bobby blows himself up, who fought along side Mario which scaling Bobby to Mario would not be too surreal. So Bobby's explosion hurting Olivia who we currently scale to Mario. Makes complete sense.

Bro, he can jump like, 1000ft. Ya know that right?

Correct. However this has nothing to do with bowser's durability. Let's keep in mind that his profile clearly states.
"He can sometimes lack foresight which causes him to make mistakes and overlook crucial details in his plans."

Yeah, ok. But, one won't change the fact he gets hurt and even dies to it 10x as often.

Bad swimmer once again. And I want to be shown scans or footage where Bowser is capable of swimming in Lava that covers half of his body.

No idea but again, HP, bad.
if they go "ack" or "oof" and shown to be dazed, still a anti-feat.

Mario and Olivia gets back up and do not make any sound. Really. Though Olivia says owww so fair enough, can't say the same for Mario in this scene however. So

Him being a Pixl means nothing. Him scaling to Mario means nothing.

But why would it mean not mean anything?

Yeah nah dog, the explosion had nothing to do with that. The explosion was due to damage and mechanical failure.

You clearly see the grand star, come out of the machine, it has to be empowered by the grand star to be such a threat to jr. It makes complete sense to not be an antifeat.

Yeah no, the strike never even touches them. The BB hits the ground, does like 9-A damage, and the blast knocks them away, then shit just spirals out of control, and a 7-C blast knocks them out.

And as before, even if you weren't literally wrong, Mario being 6-B isn't an argument for why a anti-feat isnt a anti feat.

I, never once argued for 6-B Mario. That was never the argument.
Also, to respond to the rest

of that. It could just all be an act. Miyamoto stated that he thinks of the cast as more of a troupe of actors, and with characters willing to play tennis despite their odds. As stated. Could just be actors as Miyamoto says. And acting phased for an explosion that is supposed to be 7-C could be a reason why Wario Waluigi and Bowser act or look defeated.

What the ****. Bro, being hurt is still a anti-feat to tier 6. Just because they dont DIE doesnt mean it doesnt harm them.

Mario just has a funny look on his face, that's really it on what happens.

So? Not being killed doesn't mean it didn't hurt him.

Again he just makes a loud thud, the argument is that bowser as stated before is said to (on his profile) that he sometimes lack foresight which causes him to make mistakes and overlook crucial details in his plans.

Uh, soo?
The rock sure as hell ain't? That's why it's a anti-feat.
Secondly, as above, if what tier Mario even IS, is in contention, ya can't go "well he's this strong" to explain why it takes multiple hits to do a 9-B/9-A feat.

They can just be passing the rock, with the intention of reflecting. Even then Mario and Luigi are clearly capable of breaking large rocks.

Also if they threw it it'd be LS.

Why would it not be striking strength? If they did threw it I see no reason why to call it striking strength, the page for strking strength does not even support your statement. "It may or may not depend on lifting strength" Meaning it can be SS

****** weird, tbh idk.

The Block is a power mimicry / attack reflection thing that emulates Luigi's attack or punch whatever you wanna call it.

Doesn't it actually say that though if you idle to long without possessing him?

Good question. I dont know myself, been a while since I played odyssey but unlikely unless someone has footage of such.

You ignored the argument.
Fafnir shoots lightning beam.
The damage it inflicts is 9-B on a metal object with no real evidence of being hyper durable.

Fafnir's the dragon's name? Literally thought it had no name lol Also the said lightning beam completely covers the entire odyssey. Which would reasonably hurt Mario and Cappy.

So? Bro still goes "oof" for a 9-B (tbh they prob 9-A) attack,

The oof can be argued for just a sound he makes, thought I don't blame you for thinking this so you're probably not entirely wrong

Actually, nah that's even worse, a like 140kmh golfball bruised them (9-C) and the blast itself would only be like 9-B or A via isl.

That Mario strike them with pretty much xd

also my back hurts

Hope you can recover, I did not mind having this dicussion with you. Infact you had a lot of decent points. And I might even agree with some things.

Yes he has? He's literally dug his nails into walls and climbed them before?

As mentioned before Bowser is an idiot and can overlook stuff as mentioned earlier

So? The fact he was dazed for even a second,

Disagree with stunned it's likely a getup animation. Or just layed on the moon for a second.

So we just give Mario a Key for the Classic Era to Post-Galaxy, the Modern era for consistency’s sake.

Honestly im fine with this, we do this with sonic and kirby so applying to this for Mario makes complete sense. A varies key is something I can support too. It'll take some time to compile doe so that'll be for later. I would really like to have my argument read by mods or admins or any counterargument in general. So we can fairly see both sides and not blindly just listen without new information that may or may not be valid or proven otherwise


I'll follow up with stuff later. Thank you all for your participation so far, disagree or not.

 

[Yasuda_144]

So we just give Mario a Key for the Classic Era to Post-Galaxy, the Modern era for consistency’s sake.

I don’t know if I cooked with this or if I’m speaking out my ass on this though.

The problem with that is that the RPGs are the only games in the entire series where the characters growing stronger over time is even implied, because that's a basic gameplay feature of any RPG that's naturally going to have narrative implications.

Trying to retrofit that into other games results in a constant, shonen-like power creep that's never hinted at in any way or even reflected in the scaling. Mario never deals with reoccurring foes any more easily than he did the first time, and there's no reason to assume that absolutely everyone in the verse just passively grows stronger because nobody has ever had statements of such.

 

[Chariot190]

I'll get to replying to these later today, just woke up like 15 minutes ago. So I'll have to do some tasks before I reply. You do have some validity and good concerns don't get me wrong

Let me make it perfectly clear, if any your replies involve "maybe/could/should" or conjecture, we're not doing this after this.

What? Isn't that the point of CRT's? I'm showing no sass, snark, please define the attitude cause I'm incredibly lost.

Acting as if everything you was right (it isnt) 5 seconds in isn't a good look.

For Party, I did find footage where Bowser "swam" In not entirely deep lava, it, just dips half of his legs in. Not enough to where he is incapable of doing anything. Lava does not kill per say it's just that he can not swim.

Dude, he can swim in water, that means he can swim just fine. if he can swim, whether it's lava or water wont matter. He can swim, end of.

Also, no, it does kill, Dry Bows is a thing. it's just super inconsistent, but it being inconsistent, is what makes a anti-feat, a anti-feat.

Also, might be because I don't play the RPG's or Party games like that. I do not recall where Bowser swam in lava. So I'll like to be shown examples

As above, he can swim, saying he can't is making up an excuse and ignoring the obvious.

*65. Try to double check since it's easy to just say this and people will believe you with no hesitation.

Dog, i was being hyperbolic, the fact that i was close anyway....

Also it has been confirmed that Mario 3 is a stage play. So it would explain why bowser did not get back up, likely following the script.

Me and you both know that while 3 is a stage play, it's based off canon events of some sort.

No cause he is incapped, not full on KO'D

You're making shit up. He was defeated, I can go look up a guide saying as much maybe, does archive have a NSMB2 pdf?
And being hurt, AT ALL, is a anti-feat.

Regardless I still think its worth bringing up the koopalings cause they are the ones who are not phased but bowser is somehow?

Who says that aren't?

You're really really misunderstanding and twisting what I said. Big time, Bobby blows himself up, who fought along side Mario which scaling Bobby to Mario would not be too surreal. So Bobby's explosion hurting Olivia who we currently scale to Mario. Makes complete sense.

That.... Still doesn't change the fact the feat is 9-A????
Also, that reminds me, he had to kill himself to do a 9-A feat, that Mario couldn't do. Bobby is a walking anti-feat.

Correct. However this has nothing to do with bowser's durability. Let's keep in mind that his profile clearly states.
"He can sometimes lack foresight which causes him to make mistakes and overlook crucial details in his plans."

Oooor, it knocked him the **** out, hurt him, or any of that sort which is why he didnt do 50 things he could to get back up?
Also not being Batman doesn't he's a single digit iq dumbass. He's gonna just jump back up or fly, teleport, climb, etc, if he's capable.

Bad swimmer once again. And I want to be shown scans or footage where Bowser is capable of swimming in Lava that covers half of his body.

And i want to be shown scans for half your arguments.
Stop treating lava and water as if theyre so different he's unable to swim in one but not the other.

This whole "bad swimmer" argument isnt even real, you made it up, they never say that in ANYTHING. You dont think such a reoccurring trait that apparently is why he keeps losing, wouldnt be mentioned?

Mario and Olivia gets back up and do not make any sound. Really. Though Olivia says owww so fair enough, can't say the same for Mario in this scene however. So

You JUST went on about how they're comparable, aka if it hurts her, that's still a anti-feat.

But why would it mean not mean anything?

Because the feat wouldnt change?
Because Mario's very tier is what's in contention?

You clearly see the grand star, come out of the machine, it has to be empowered by the grand star to be such a threat to jr. It makes complete sense to not be an antifeat.

And? it being empowered by it, doesnt change the fact the explosions stem from mechanical failure, not due to that.
And that doesn't change the fact it's like, 9-B/A blasts.

I, never once argued for 6-B Mario. That was never the argument.

Ok, 1, i know the agenda my dude. im in that chat
2. 6-B, 6-C, any of the sort, ya cant say "they scale to him so not an anti-feat", when the very fact the feat is what it is, is the antifeat and brings whatever he's at into contention.

Also, to respond to the rest

of that. It could just all be an act. Miyamoto stated that he thinks of the cast as more of a troupe of actors, and with characters willing to play tennis despite their odds. As stated. Could just be actors as Miyamoto says. And acting phased for an explosion that is supposed to be 7-C could be a reason why Wario Waluigi and Bowser act or look defeated.'

Damn so we should just toss every feat because theyre just acting?
Yeah, this argument alone is absurd brother. We both know that isnt the case. We both know that isnt even what miyamoto meant (just means they can take on many roles and settings and be repurposed as such) and is complete made-up conjecture on your part that game never implies.

You cant handwave antifeats with "theyre acting", they arent anyway, theyre playing sports for fun, shit just went out of control.

Mario just has a funny look on his face, that's really it on what happens.

Why tho? Like i get some, but why do you think he has that expression?

Again he just makes a loud thud, the argument is that bowser as stated before is said to (on his profile) that he sometimes lack foresight which causes him to make mistakes and overlook crucial details in his plans.

Unfortunately, our profiles arent canon. Not an argument. Even then, that's talking like, huge overarching plans not "damn why dont i fly/jump/climb/etc". Hell we've seen him do it before in cases he isnt knocked flat on his ass to get back in the fight.

They can just be passing the rock, with the intention of reflecting. Even then Mario and Luigi are clearly capable of breaking large rocks.

That's 9-B at best. And no, theyre passing it, reflecting it even, with the intent to harm the other, so theyre not just love tapping it. That argument doesnt work.

Why would it not be striking strength? If they did threw it I see no reason why to call it striking strength, the page for strking strength does not even support your statement. "It may or may not depend on lifting strength" Meaning it can be SS

Uh, it does actually, read the LS page. Why do you think we rate LS and SS differently? Why do you think we have Class M Goku, whom is also low 2-C?

LS and SS can sometimes be tied together based on the feat, not here though, THROWING, is a LS-based action, not SS.

Good question. I dont know myself, been a while since I played odyssey but unlikely unless someone has footage of such.

"unlikely unless someone has footage"
Not how this works, it isnt schrodinger's cat.
Also, nah, Peach is distraught and doesn't know how they're gonna get out. She scales to Mario, or at least close enough to where she being incapable means he would be incapable, or struggle at least.

Also common sense.

Fafnir's the dragon's name? Literally thought it had no name lol

it doesnt but it's a big ass black dragon that shoots lightning,

Also the said lightning beam completely covers the entire odyssey. Which would reasonably hurt Mario and Cappy.

And? That doesnt change what makes it a anti-feat.

The oof can be argued for just a sound he makes, thought I don't blame you for thinking this so you're probably not entirely wrong

Yeah, "oof" is a sound he makes, because it hurt

That Mario strike them with pretty much xd

And? That's, still a anti-feat? Him hitting a golf ball, and it only having 9-C/B KE, not good.

As mentioned before Bowser is an idiot and can overlook stuff as mentioned earlier

Except we know he ain't that dumb, because he does it when he can, like in 3D land.

Disagree with stunned it's likely a getup animation. Or just layed on the moon for a second.

Ya take a second or two to get back control.
Cappy also says "owww", it hurt him at least, and he scales for the most part. Cappy also questions if Peach is fine, meaning he thinks that fall mightve harmed her.

Honestly im fine with this, we do this with sonic and kirby so applying to this for Mario makes complete sense. A varies key is something I can support too. It'll take some time to compile doe so that'll be for later. I would really like to have my argument read by mods or admins or any counterargument in general. So we can fairly see both sides and not blindly just listen without new information that may or may not be valid or proven otherwise

Kirby and Sonic have explicit statements saying they grow in power, and feats that tie into that like Sonic stomping Perfect Chaos in base, when before, he needed ssj.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Let me be blunt in my disagreement of this thread: The point was that from 6-C(The highest tier with more than one feat scaling in it) To 3-C(The old scaling) was 16 TIERS.

Do I still agree with Low 2-C? Yes, but that's because it had like 7 feats in it I don't think were properly debunked.

Just gonna throw it out there, for feats the main cast do and tank, our consistency is around 7-C to 6-C. The point is to find consistency in context, not whatever you want to be consistent.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Alright I'll get to replying some time later today. Ty for waiting in advanced.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Acting as if everything you was right (it isnt) 5 seconds in isn't a good look.

So like every crt then? Bro what lol I don't get you

Stop treating lava and water as if theyre so different he's unable to swim in one but not the other.

Lava is denser than water. So they are quite different. Why else would I treat water and lava differently? ._.

That's 9-B at best. And no, theyre passing it, reflecting it even, with the intent to harm the other, so theyre not just love tapping it. That argument doesnt work.

Yeah Intent to harm each other, I dont see how its not reflecting it. Hell lets say it is lovetapping, (Which IMO clearly is not) The feat would be qualified as a light way to harm.

Ya take a second or two to get back control.
Cappy also says "owww", it hurt him at least, and he scales for the most part. Cappy also questions if Peach is fine, meaning he thinks that fall mightve harmed her.

I can agree that it'll apply to Cappy. So I'll give you that, he Thinks It hurts peach but is not outright for sure judging by your wording.

LS and SS can sometimes be tied together based on the feat, not here though, THROWING, is a LS-based action, not SS.

Well what would hurt more? A baseball player who throws stuff at full force or a 5 year old. Of course having stuff thrown at you by someone who scales to the same tier as Mario would be reasonable to inflict damage.

Also, nah, Peach is distraught and doesn't know how they're gonna get out. She scales to Mario, or at least close enough to where she being incapable means he would be incapable, or struggle at least.

Well you see nah im kidding fair enough.

it doesnt but it's a big ass black dragon that shoots lightning,

Thats also a clear boss, and we have numerous bosses that scale to Mario. The lightning should definitely equate to AP. I would not see how it does not

Except we know he ain't that dumb, because he does it when he can, like in 3D land.

I mean he's very very much quite the one to overestimate himself and overlook stuff. He's been getting incapped by bridges in almost every 2D Mario title. Yeah he is that dumb. So much for an IQ of 9,800 like he claims

Unfortunately, our profiles arent canon. Not an argument. Even then, that's talking like, huge overarching plans not "damn why dont i fly/jump/climb/etc". Hell we've seen him do it before in cases he isnt knocked flat on his ass to get back in the fight.

Yes the profiles are not explicily canon, but clearly the weakness HAS to be supported by games. Otherwise it won't be there. Valid argument either way.

Damn so we should just toss every feat because theyre just acting?

For the tennis ones its a possibility. And for the miyamoto stuff, you have a point there

Why tho? Like i get some, but why do you think he has that expression?

Cause he is surprised that the castle blew up on his face. Also I would not mind if the toon force mop Mario uses in SMW's castle. Were removed. Hell powered up taller Mario does not turn small after the explosion. The worst that happens is his mustahce turns funny and clothes are damaged,

And? it being empowered by it, doesnt change the fact the explosions stem from mechanical failure, not due to that.
And that doesn't change the fact it's like, 9-B/A blasts.

It's a 3-C Blast since we currently rate grand stars as 3-C. (The explosion just has small range) Mario caused the machine to set off and explode. A machine empowered by a grand star that clearly comes out after the explosion does not seem like an antifeat for jr.

You JUST went on about how they're comparable, aka if it hurts her, that's still a anti-feat.

Which, I did agree that it hurts her but not Mario. Lmao.

This whole "bad swimmer" argument isnt even real, you made it up, they never say that in ANYTHING. You dont think such a reoccurring trait that apparently is why he keeps losing, wouldnt be mentioned?

As stated before Lava is denser than water so it has to be why Bowser can't swim in it well.

Oooor, it knocked him the **** out, hurt him, or any of that sort which is why he didnt do 50 things he could to get back up?

As stated before bowser is just dumb lul

Who says that aren't?

Not a noise is made

Dog, i was being hyperbolic, the fact that i was close anyway....

I understand that you could have been hyperbolic. All I was suggesting was that you be careful with stating random numbers. Thats all

You're making shit up

wouldnt this be poisoning the well / engaging in bad faith? Dial back a little this would be making you look worse than I am tbh

 

[Chariot190]

So like every crt then? Bro what lol I don't get you

No, who acts like that?

Lava is denser than water. So they are quite different. Why else would I treat water and lava differently? ._.

Yeah, by like, 2x? For a dude who's Class K-M easy?
You're arguing the equivalent to a stiff breeze would incap him, we know that's wrong anyway, he has zero issue moving the lava, because we see that, even when he sinks, he splashes it around and moves his arms just fine.

ALSO, yeah, lava is denser, so he'd actually sink less quickly as opposed to water.

Yeah Intent to harm each other, I dont see how its not reflecting it. Hell lets say it is lovetapping, (Which IMO clearly is not) The feat would be qualified as a light way to harm.

Yeah, exactly, hence why it's a anti-feat? They're knocking the boulder back and forth, actively trying, with the intent to harm a comparable foe, and the rock lasts multiple hits. Them actually trying isnt breaking a rock instantly, this isnt complex.

I can agree that it'll apply to Cappy. So I'll give you that, he Thinks It hurts peach but is not outright for sure judging by your wording.

Yeah, and?
if mike tyson was smacked by a wet noodle, i wouldnt go "oh shit is he ok?". The very fact Cappy had to ask that, means he thinks that fall could have potentially caused damage, meaning he doesnt think Peach is a quadrillion times above it. And the fact it hurt him to begin with...

Well what would hurt more? A baseball player who throws stuff at full force or a 5 year old. Of course having stuff thrown at you by someone who scales to the same tier as Mario would be reasonable to inflict damage.

The baseball player because the baseball will have like 50x the velocity.
if a 5 year old could throw a baseball at 10000mps, then the 5 year old.

Who's throwing it doesnt change the fact the game literally tells us how fast they hit the golf ball, we can get KE. it's 9-B at best.

Mario, in that instance, is 9-B. That's why it's a anti-feat

Thats also a clear boss, and we have numerous bosses that scale to Mario.

So? Other bosses don't matter. We're talking about this scene.

The lightning should definitely equate to AP. I would not see how it does not

Because it didnt even do a 9-A feat? That's what makes it a anti-feat

I mean he's very very much quite the one to overestimate himself and overlook stuff. He's been getting incapped by bridges in almost every 2D Mario title. Yeah he is that dumb. So much for an IQ of 9,800 like he claims

So, your actual argument is "he just didnt think to it lmao"?
Not gonna fly, prove it.

Dude, we know he'll do it if he can, because he does.
Evidently, the other times, the drop was to much and knocked him on his ass, as it was blatantly the whole point. Hell even here when we actually see him get dunked, fight ends, so we know the lava put him over the edge, given he just, ya know.

Hell, we know some of these falls can **** him up, remember when Dry fell? His bones were launched all over, not even Mario could do that.

Yes the profiles are not explicily canon, but clearly the weakness HAS to be supported by games. Otherwise it won't be there. Valid argument either way.

Dude, he doesnt always think stuff through, he doesnt go "oh no, i fell, guess ill just sit here".

For the tennis ones its a possibility. And for the miyamoto stuff, you have a point there

It really isn't a possibility, nothing hints and implies it and goes against the whole premise of that game.
And "possibly", a very, very, unsupported one at that, will never be an argument.

Cause he is surprised that the castle blew up on his face. Also I would not mind if the toon force mop Mario uses in SMW's castle. Were removed. Hell powered up taller Mario does not turn small after the explosion. The worst that happens is his mustahce turns funny and clothes are damaged,

Bro, his hands and legs look like they got cooked, they're bright peach

It's a 3-C Blast since we currently rate grand stars as 3-C. (The explosion just has small range) Mario caused the machine to set off and explode. A machine empowered by a grand star that clearly comes out after the explosion does not seem like an antifeat for jr.

Dude, you just don't get it. it's a anti-feat, the explosion has nothing to do with the grand star, and even if it did, it'd be even worse because it'd be a anti-feat against 3-C.

Which, I did agree that it hurts her but not Mario. Lmao.

And you said she scales to Mario, ergo, it's still a anti-feat for him.

As stated before Lava is denser than water so it has to be why Bowser can't swim in it well.

Or... You're making that up and that isn't real?

As stated before bowser is just dumb lul

Yeah not gonna fly. You know ive played the games right? He isnt that dumb, hell he's smart even, he just sometimes overlooks hiccups in his plans, not basic common sense.

Not a noise is made

So? Exactly, they could have been knocked the **** out, given the far stronger Bows actively recoiled.
And, that's if they even got hit, given the angle it was falling at, only really Ludwig was in danger.

Either way, Bows was hurt by it, end of. The koopalings not making a sound is either because they weren't hit, or were knocked out. One of given even if they tanked it, they'd still make some sort of noise.

I understand that you could have been hyperbolic. All I was suggesting was that you be careful with stating random numbers. Thats all

Well, no, because even this is the tip of the iceberg, i said 80 and was being hyperbolic, but there are 80, hell there's hundreds.

wouldnt this be poisoning the well / engaging in bad faith? Dial back a little this would be making you look worse than I am tbh

No it's called calling out what i see, youre making shit up, that's simply the fact of the matter. The only person who's making themselves look bad is the person making up stuff not actually said, supported, or shown, just to excuse blatant discrepancies. That's on you, not me.

Like, where does it say he cant swim in lava? Just as an example, such an important fact apparently, critical to the majority of his losses, and yet the fact we know he can swim and move through lava just fine, yet they never make note of such a thing?
That's making shit up man, you made up a baseless weakness to excuse obvious shit.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Based on Chariot’s counter arguments I disagree with the OP.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

No, who acts like that?

Like wha? Acting like they're right? I can't think I'm right? All of this is entirely subjective so lul wat ._.

No it's called calling out what i see, youre making shit up, that's simply the fact of the matter. The only person who's making themselves look bad is the person making up stuff not actually said, supported, or shown, just to excuse blatant discrepancies. That's on you, not me.

Again bad faith. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with me, all I ask is to have some decency when talking to others. All I said was "off to a great start" and you started acting rather hostile for some reason. Not really fair.


I got a few more in me so I'm gonna be working on the responses. I'll be sure to count the votes in the mean time.

 

[Chariot190]

Like wha? Acting like they're right? I can't think I'm right? All of this is entirely subjective so lul wat ._.

Leading your CRT and saying stuff "such a good sign", all while 97% of what you said is made up, handwaving, or objectively wrong, really ain't the way to go about it brother.

Again bad faith.

No? Fact of the matter, is, you made stuff up.
If ya didn't make stuff up, you'd be right, but no, you did, have continued to do so, and even after being asked for evidence, you haven't shown it.

Saying "hey this shit is made up", isn't some personal attack, poisoning the well, or arguing in bad faith, it's saying it how it is.
What you claim as the basis of your argument, isn't real, stated, or corroborated by any piece of official media, it is simply something you made up to explain away a anti-feat. We do not do that here, end of. And calling that out, is perfectly fine and to be expected, what do you expect to happen?

I got a few more in me so I'm gonna be working on the responses. I'll be sure to count the votes in the mean time.

Are we really doing this

 

[DaReaperMan]

Are we really doing this

YES.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also may have things to say, but may be a while. Also Chariot, you do desperately need to settle down with the bold accusations and many other things. You have not been behaving in a matter staff members are supposed to behave. I know you're simply a Calc Group member and not a Thread Mod, but the staff responsibility rules are still the same. And saying "This is a battle boarding community, it's not supposed to be professional" like you said in a previous thread is not a good excuse. This community is different from other battle boarding places and has much higher standards when it comes to professionalism and civilization. And while I do not mind profanity in moderation, I agree with common complaints that having 10 or more curse words in the overwhelming majority of your posts is going overboard. Moderate cursing is fine, but excessive cursing is not.

Also, the issue I always had with the original downgrade isn't so much whether or not those are valid anti-feats but the way they were handled. Like, it logically makes almost no sense if the goalpost was just to get rid of Tier 4 or 3-C scaling if the method of doing so was listing 40+ Wall level feats only to just say "Tier 6 is fine." Listing every single alleged anti-feat in existence only makes sense if going all the way down to Wall level was the goalpost (Which I am pretty sure it wasn't the goalpost). A downgrade to Tier 6 should simply focus on listing Tier 6 feats while simply discussing what it wrong with the stellar or cosmic stuff.

 

[Chariot190]

I also may have things to say, but may be a while. Also Chariot, you do desperately need to settle down with the bold accusations and many other things.

Yeah, no I don't, shit's fine.

It also isn't an accusation, it's fact.

They made shit up, called them out on it. If they make stuff up again, I'll call them out on it again.
As expected, hell I expect anyone to do that, I expect YOU to do that. Making shit up on a wiki meant to properly index things?
Yeah no, worst thing you can do.

You have not been behaving in a matter staff members are supposed to behave

Actually, I have.
I evaluate calcs daily, that's my job.
Beyond that, what? Might be a tad blunt but so? Don't call others names, don't make personal attacks on one's person, worst i do is maybe say an argument or action is bad, but what of it? Is it because I say **** a lot? Get over it, shit ain't a personal attack.

. I know you're simply a Calc Group member and not a Thread Mod, but the staff responsibility rules are still the same.

I do what's expected of me and don't break any rules.

And saying "This is a battle boarding community, it's not supposed to be professional" like you said in a previous thread is not a good excuse.

Oh? Why the strawman and twisting of context?
It is a hobby, im not at work, i can talk however well i damn please as long as it isnt actively insulting, attacking, and what not.

This community is different from other battle boarding places and has much higher standards when it comes to professionalism and civilization. And while I do not mind profanity in moderation, I agree with common complaints that having 10 or more curse words in the overwhelming majority of your posts is going overboard. Moderate cursing is fine, but excessive cursing is not.

Unless we have a rule, ill say **** as many times as I want, it's simply how I talk, anyone who even slightly interacts with me can vouch i tone it down as it is.
Don't like it? Make it a rule, until then, well no offense but you just kinda have to deal with it. Hell i even made sure it was fine when the filter got added, this shit ain't on me.

But yeah sure, derail ig because calling someone out for having a completely unsupported argument is so bad or because I say **** a lot so I'm an asshole or not fit to be a mod

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, no I don't, shit's fine.

It also isn't an accusation, it's fact.

They made shit up, called them out on it. If they make stuff up again, I'll call them out on it again.
As expected, hell I expect anyone to do that, I expect YOU to do that. Making shit up on a wiki meant to properly index things?
Yeah no, worst thing you can do.

The OP is just stating his honest opinion. Nothing more. Just like what I do in debates, my own honest opinion. Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

Actually, I have.
I evaluate calcs daily, that's my job.
Beyond that, what? Might be a tad blunt but so? Don't call others names, don't make personal attacks on one's person, worst i do is maybe say an argument or action is bad, but what of it? Is it because I say **** a lot? Get over it, shit ain't a personal attack.

All staff members and regular users are required to so some degree of civility and common sense; with it being even more so for staff members of any position.

I do what's expected of me and don't break any rules.

On calc blogs maybe, but you're persistently being rude, obnoxious, narrow minded, and condescending on many different threads. You're just as bad as the time Matthew Schroeder said "****ing desperate fans." Which is precisely why he got demoted twice and banned twice was him keeping up this behavior despite being told multiple times to stop.

Oh? Why the strawman and twisting of context?
It is a hobby, im not at work, i can talk however well i damn please as long as it isnt actively insulting, attacking, and what not.

I was referring to this comment.

Unless we have a rule, ill say **** as many times as I want, it's simply how I talk, anyone who even slightly interacts with me can vouch i tone it down as it is.
Don't like it? Make it a rule, until then, well no offense but you just kinda have to deal with it. Hell i even made sure it was fine when the filter got added, this shit ain't on me.

But yeah sure, derail ig because calling someone out for having a completely unsupported argument is so bad or because I say **** a lot so I'm an asshole or not fit to be a mod

It is a Fandom wide rule to Assume Good Faith, which you accusing the OP of "Making Shit Up" is literally the exact opposite of that. Also, Be Kind, Be Respectful, and Be Appropriate are the first three things listed on Site Rules. I don't mind if you say those words on occasion, just not 50+ times in a single post as Sliderman put it. And it's the other things mentioned. Like the bold accusations that are worse.

 

[Chariot190]

The OP is just stating his honest opinion. Nothing more. Just like what I do in debates, my own honest opinion. Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

Not how this works, we don't index conjecture.
Making something known, whether it's your opinion or not, doesn't change the fact it's still made up.

Innocence, till proven guilty, doesn't work, it's you post evidence or drop it.

All staff members and regular users are required to so some degree of civility and common sense; with it being even more so for staff members of any position.

Yeah, and i do, me saying **** isn't a personal attack, knock it off DDM.

On calc blogs maybe, but you're persistently being rude, obnoxious, narrow minded, and condescending on many different threads.

******, really man? Ya say the above then do that?
Is that not a personal insult and attack on one's person? That doesn't even say "acting like", you're explicitly stating me as such, hmmm....

Pot calling the kettle black no? What makes you special DDM?

You're just as bad as the time Matthew Schroeder said "****ing desperate fans." Which is precisely why he got demoted twice and banned twice.

Then maybe he shouldn't have been demoted? Or maybe you're leaving out context, who knows, I don't care, get over it,.

I was referring to this comment.

Yes, and i stand by it, im gonna say ****, unless it's a rule, get over it. Youre acting like im insulting you, im not, only person who's actually insulted ANYONE here, is you.

It is a Fandom wide rule to Assume Good Faith, which you accusing the OP of "Making Shit Up" is literally the exact opposite of that.

Yes, and then they made stuff up.

What do you not get? Saying someone made shit up, multiple posts in of them saying it, is past the point.

And hell, you're acting like i said that as a bad thing, it wasnt, it's simply what happened. As a mod, as even a normal user, i fully expect someone to call out made up stuff.

Also, Be Kind, Be Respectful, and Be Appropriate are the first three things listed on Site Rules. I don't mind if you say those words on occasion, just not 50+ times in a single post as Sliderman put it.

Well let's see, no personal insults unlike you, saying **** in the year 2024, not even directed at someone, actively replying to all their arguments they spent time on.

Yeah no, feel like i got this covered, as it stands the rudest, least respectful person here, is you.

And no offense, it doesnt matter what you mind, it's completely in line with the rules, i even asked when the filter got added.

And it's the other things mentioned. Like the bold accusations that are worse.

This, is astonishing, how dare I call someone out for objectively having numerous arguments hinge on a fact that they made up and is never established anywhere ever.


But sure, im the asshole, not the person who just actively insulted me, can we stop derailing now because you dont like how i talk or i called someone out as should be done?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Me when the newest Super Mario series thread unsurprisingly gets derailed due to debater drama:

 

[Chariot190]

Me when the newest Super Mario series thread unsurprisingly gets derailed due to debater drama:

why cant we just like, look for better feats instead, some exist... even had a 6-A one i was gonna calc...