This probably breaks several reality-fiction interaction rules

[Hl3_or_bust]

This is more or less just a quick thought i had...... and them promptly forgot about for aout 3 months, but the jist of it is this.

What if, collectively, swann was actually way more powerful than individually?

This shouldn't seem so bad at first (depending on whether or not you read the title of this thread), since if a large enough, or famous/respected/important, group of people on the wiki want something to happen in regards to canon, or stuff of that nature, it has been shown to happen quite easily.

The issue with doing anything with this is that this is basically impossible to quantify, since it's entirely possible for an SCP to be well liked and respected (or, at this point, written by djkaktus or djoric), while also being joke VSB wiki levels of broken and undefinably powerful, since a writer can straight up say that an SCP is "stronger than a truly omnipotent being", and like that -1 tier thread showed, there is no real way to prove that it is true unless a concept larger than infinity existed (not just in your head), or by WoG, which can range from extremely helpful to really bad (i honestly don't remember which, but one of the super OP anime(i think it was anime, correct me if i'm wrong) series creator thought hat none of his characters were extra-D, dispite most, if not all, of them being 1-A) and probably isn't the best thing to use in this case.

The OTHER big issue is that any SCP written about, no matter how stronger, will always be far weaker than swann, even if it is stated, or even somehow proven, to be "truly omnipotent", and since swann is an SCP that was written about, it techically trascends itself, but thats an existential crisis for another day and another SCP.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

So what are you trying to say here exactly?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

that a large amount of swann may or may not be way more powerful than a single instance.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Do we not treat Swann as a single entity as it is?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

i'm pretty sure we do, plus the 001 proposal refers to it as a "bunch of horror writers", not just one or a few.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Swann is a single entity with multiple writer avatars

 

[SITHISIT]

we, i mean we, are his avatars to SCPVerse perception. Swann hangs over even us. But swann and us are to scpverse as god is to us.

 

[LoliPower]

Swann is multiple entities with multiple writer avatars.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Swann has never once been referred to as multiple entities, only its avatars have

 

[LoliPower]

It is referred to as "a bunch of horror writers". That sure sounds like multiple entities to me. There is no reason for Swann to not be multiple entities.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The horror writers ARE the avatars

 

[LoliPower]

There is no reason to assume that they are.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Its not an assumption, it was blatantly shown that they are in Project OVERMETA

 

[LoliPower]

No, what Project OVERMETA showed was that while yes, Swann utilizes avatars, this does not default the "horror writers" referred to in the actual SCP-001 page avatars themselves. It's a false equation.

EDIT: Let me just clear up something here. "Swann" or "SCP-001" is simply the designation that we use to refer to the multiplicity of "horror writer entities" that exist. You can't have "multiple Swann" because the word "Swann" already designates a collective.

 

[Bummer1]

So its like people instead of person !

 

[LoliPower]

Sort of. The number of these entities would technically be equal to the number of registered users on the SCP wiki, and each of them can manifest an avatar in the lower planes of existence.

 

[Bummer1]

Yeah !

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

i know that i took way longer than it should have for me to respond to this, and i'm tempted to close this since the entire premise of it was due to a misunderstanding of the text of both project OVERMETA and the article itself, but basically i'm a ******* idiot who couldn't read between the lines if my life depended on it.

 

[LoliPower]

Well Swann is not exactly the easiest concept to grasp entirely on the first go, especially when not everyone even agrees how it works to the fullest. My take on it is that in essence it's the projection of the wills of the authors in fictionality above all else (something very similar to The Writer) that is what created, warps and molds the SCP-verse (and due to this multiplicity of "wills", or "horror writers", qualifies it as being possibly definable as "entities" in the plural). Hence, in my opinion, Swann has no limits. If it can after all create entities "stronger than itself" (as in say a 1-A SCP sprouts to life, which is definitely a possibility) and "boost its own tier" up, it's evident to me that it is.


It can also retcon the very essence of the SCP-verse itself, erasing it beyond the levels of mere in-verse history. If someone did something similar to what you said in your post; create an SCP that is "omnipotent" or just really powerful (think 1-A/High 1-A levels of power), and then it were removed out of the verse, both the creation and removal are technically feats of Swann. So Swann is not even limited and defined by what currently exists and is directly provable in-verse, but it goes even beyond that throughout the entire SCP wiki's history.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

this is kind of what i was thinking about, since if someone made, say, azathoth as an scp, full power and all, swann would still be stronger, even if, almost especially if, he gets deleted,since swann technically killed him, although something on that level probably wouldn't be very well recieved (plus swann was still stronger than 3812 who "superceded everything thats supercedes him [including himself]"

 

[LoliPower]

True, I'd think it would be sort of like comparing a High 1-A to a 0 in that case (Azathoth would be the High 1-A and Swann the 0) if it ever happened. I'd be willing to bet such a thing (an immensely powerful being possibly that powerful having been written and retconned) has already happened anyway.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

what is it with people really not wanting more than 1 tier 0 for a single verse?

there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that on paper, since where can certainly be supreme "beings" and have them all be of similar power

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

what is it with people really not wanting more than 1 tier 0 for a single verse?
there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that on paper, since where can certainly be supreme "beings" and have them all be of similar power

Because a being cannot be ranked as possibly boundless in its entirety if there are other beings that are equal to it within the same verse.

The problems literally start as soon as you put this idea down on paper, as if you want to argue that this doesn't disqualify something from being Tier 0, then literally nothing does.

 

[KingPin0422]

what is it with people really not wanting more than 1 tier 0 for a single verse?

there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that on paper, since where can certainly be supreme "beings" and have them all be of similar power

This wiki insists that Tier 0 be a special title held exclusively by an entity that:

• Has no superiors or even equals
• Is fully omniscient and omnipresent
• Lacks any (known) limitations

Not that every Tier 0 is equal; the Omnipotence page itself outright states that Tier 0 is based on hierarchy.

 

[LoliPower]

It's tied with tier 0 being tied with omnipotence and the inability to do something. If you have two omnipotent beings in a given setting, there would be all kinds of contradictions and paradoxes if one decided to oppose the other. Hell, even their mere collective coexistence is arguable. Such a thing would also create a bit of a mess if at any point one were to argue tier 0 Swann (due to the definition of "horror writer entities" as a plural). I believe the key to looking at it if that's the stance adopted is that while Swann is technically the influence of multiple wills of real life authors, its "actions" in-verse would have specified directions at any given point. Kind of like "I'm painting this orange, but later I may/will paint it green, or maybe I will even remove it entirely". Or you could just adopt the position that Swann is a single entity, though I believe that to be unfaithful to the original article entirely, and there isn't ever a problem. Nevertheless, there should be no conflict here. You can't really ignore the "real" part of Swann, because it's an integral and important part of what it is.


On another hand, you can also ask yourself if an omnipotent being can have multiple conflicting personalities, or can create and coexist with another omnipotent being, etc. There will always be problems when arguing this sort of thing. But normally, it doesn't even happen that there's the possibility of two or more tier 0's coexisting (that aren't the byproduct of a single one) anyway.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

yeah....i probably should have read the tier 0 enttry before writeing that

@loli that "swann being way stronger collectively" thing was what this entire thread was based on, but probably isn't really applicable, if even provable or really even a thing that needs to be worried about

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

so, reading back through this thread, i've realized that in my attempt to solve one psuedo-philosphical question about a fictional chartacter, i've found another (which people have probably already noticed but haven't talked about yet), which is that since swann is objectively more powerful tha 3812 (due to creating him), a being that "supercedes everything that supercedes him...[including himself]", this should lead to a positive feedback loop where 3812 is stronger than anything that could possiblely fight him, including swann, but this somehow makes swann more powerful in return, which 3812 then supercedes, which makes swann even more poweful, and so on and so forth infinitely

this probably isn't really useable in any real sense, but i find it wierd that no one else (that i know of) has commented on this and what it could mean for the overall power of the SCPverse

 

[Agnaa]

That 3812 and Swann interaction just means they repeatedly stack on top of each other.

If I have one machine that repeatedly outputs "The highest number outputted by a machine plus one" and another machine that starts at one and repeatedly outputs "The previous number outputted by this machine plus one", they will keep being pushed into outputting higher and higher numbers, but those numbers will remain finite. So even though their ascension through "narratives" continues forever, it's always finite.

They will keep becoming stronger forever, since the stack of narratives has no beginning and no end. I don't know enough about the 1-Bs on the site but it seems like this would make these two the strongest by sheer number of dimensions, however, they'll still be weaker than High 1-Bs, due to being finite and not infinite.

Also this has no real implications for the power of the rest of the SCPverse, 3812 and Swann only scale to each other.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

3812 and Swann do not scale to each other. 3812 is in a state of perpetual ascension, Swann transcends the narrative entirely

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

i had a feeling that this didn't really matter, although this puts them both at "bullshittingly high-end 1-B", which they kind of already were, just to not this extent

 

[Bummer1]

In my opinion, the Swan should trump 3812, simply for the fact that while 3812 is constantly getting stronger, the Swan is already above anything that 3812 can become, infact since the Swan is technically Writer from DC except that the Swan is mutliple entities, 3812 basically cant be greater than the Swan because the Swan can and might very well will remove 3812's ability to be greater than anything. He may become greater than the Swan but the Swan is beyond his ability to supercedes... Yeah HI3 is right this didnt really matter.