The Way (WWE) vs Joe Higashi and Terry Bogard (Fatal Fury)

[RandomGuy2345]

Fixed the Bogard issue.

 

[Shmooply]

Big funnies aside, I also vote Joe and Terry because of @Bruhtelho's reasons. It feels weird saying this outside of fighting games, but the zoning options the two have counter Theory and Johnny's fighting style hard.

 

[Pikaman]

That's fair, though I'm inclined to believe this won't be a big problem for The Way, as the multiple amount of fighting styles both Theory and Gargano have fought against and even defeated should be enough to keep up.

Have Terry and Joe fought on par with people who have a "Sixth Sense" that allows him to fight while blindfolded?

Mastery of every single martial art is above WWE in general, never mind Gargano and Theory. That should be fairly simple. The only real counter is Dexter Lumis’ sixth sense but it isn’t really convincing enough to outweigh the Fatal Fury statement since Lumis hasn’t been shown fighting anyone near Terry’s skill blindfolded

 

[RandomGuy2345]

There's also that Axiom feat Theory and Gargano scale far above (though I already know how Pika's going to respond to that).

he only real counter is Dexter Lumis’ sixth sense but it isn’t really convincing enough to outweigh the Fatal Fury statement since Lumis hasn’t been shown fighting anyone near Terry’s skill blindfolded

You don't need to be on the level of someone in terms of skill to Instinctively react to their attacks.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

You don't need to be on the level of someone in terms of skill to Instinctively react to their attacks.

An Instinctive Reaction is done without the need for conscious thought. Like @Chariot190 said, it's not really a skill feat. It's just an ability that makes you hard to hit. You don't need to be more skilled than someone to instinctively react to their attacks.

A skill feat is being able to hit said person with IR.

 

[Pikaman]

You don't need to be on the level of someone in terms of skill to Instinctively react to their attacks.

No, but the less skilled your opponent the easier they are to dodge, regardless of whether that dodge is done by instincts or not. We know for a fact his instinctive reaction isn’t flawless, so it has to have a limit to what it can “react” to.

There's also that Axiom feat Theory and Gargano scale far above (though I already know how Pika's going to respond to that).

I’ll spare you the boredom.


I’d say the Fatal Fury Fellas (for lack of an official team name) defo hold a skill advantage, though The Way can mitigate that through their Instinctive Reaction somewhat, also usual spiel about finishers and yada yada, though Super Moves again mitigate that. Also, their acrobatics is crazy, that’s something Theory and Gargano will struggle with. I lean in favour of FFF, but will wait to see if Random can pull something out of the bag.

If this goes in favour of Terry and Joe then that’s a 0:0:3 W:I:L record for Gargano which sucks serious ass, Random defo has blood on his hands for those anime matchups

 

[Shmooply]

I’d say the Fatal Fury Fellas (for lack of an official team name)

Team Fatal Fury. No, that's unironically what they call themselves in King of Fighters.

 

[Chariot190]

I do wanna say, 6th sense isn't inherently a skill feat.
The fact it's done via sixth sense and not skill, reading, prediction or whatever, kinda undermines it.

That literally just might be enabling him to fight normally without vision as he uses this other ability to sense and compensate. But that doesn't inherently mean without the blindfold his skill better, at least not with implication. Fighting him blindfolded and fighting him without may not be any different.

Like, I wouldn't call Solid Snake's 6th sense stuff or the fact he can instantly wake up and aim a gun at someone, despite being asleep, the moment they even point at him as skill, that's just wacky enhanced senses.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

No, but the less skilled your opponent the easier they are to dodge, regardless of whether that dodge is done by instincts or not. We know for a fact his instinctive reaction isn’t flawless, so it has to have a limit to what it can “react” to.

The thing is that the skill gap between these two teams aren't big.

Theory is far above Axiom, and is able to fight on par with Dexter Lumis, and Gargano is more skilled than Theory. In fact, Theory and Gargano had a 1v1 match, and Gargano flat out called Theory "predictable."

Also, their acrobatics is crazy

Admittedly those mid-air combos are annoying, though other than that, I haven't really seen any other acrobatic feats that other acrobatic WWE wrestlers have done.

I’d say the Fatal Fury Fellas (for lack of an official team name) defo hold a skill advantage, though The Way can mitigate that through their Instinctive Reaction somewhat

I'm quite confident they can mitigate that skill advantage, especially Gargano.

I lean in favour of FFF, but will wait to see if Random can pull something out of the bag.

I'm honestly leaning towards Incon.

Team Fatal Fury are more skilled, and they have a very unorthodox fighting style Theory and Gargano haven't dealt with. Their Super Moves as well will be an issue.

Though Theory and Gargano can mitigate that skill gap via their IR. Let's not forget Theory and Gargano's finishers as well, along with their Social Influencing, which will be a GG for Team FF.

Both teams have numerous win cons over each other, it'll just be hard to determine who will get the final blow first.

I do wanna say, 6th sense isn't inherently a skill feat.
The fact it's done via sixth sense and not skill, reading, prediction or whatever, kinda undermines it.

That literally just might be enabling him to fight normally without vision as he uses this other ability to sense and compensate. But that doesn't inherently mean without the blindfold his skill better, at least not with implication. Fighting him blindfolded and fighting him without may not be any different.

Like, I wouldn't call Solid Snake's 6th sense stuff or the fact he can instantly wake up and aim a gun at someone, despite being asleep, the moment they even point at him as skill, that's just wacky enhanced senses.

Agree to disagree.

What about that Axiom feat?

 

[Chariot190]

Agree to disagree.

I mean, do they say it's done via skill? If not that's more like enhanced senses/extrasensory perception ngl.
In fact he should probably get that if he doesn't already.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I mean, do they say it's done via skill? If not that's more like enhanced senses/extrasensory perception ngl.
In fact he should probably get that if he doesn't already.

Admittedly, the commentators state it was a "Sixth Sense" he had.

Though it's still very impressive nonetheless that Theory can fight on par with Lumis who can pull that off, on top of Gargano being more skilled than Theory.

Do you want me to show you the Axiom feat to give your opinion on it?

 

[Pikaman]

The thing is that the skill gap between these two teams aren't big.

It... kinda is sizeable enough unless we start talking about God Tiers, who are probably more skilled in exchange for being less varied. Theory and Gargano are masters of a few martial arts, with experience against masters of a much wider pool. Team Fatal Fury are above someone who has mastered every. single. one.

That’s not a game-breaking difference, but it’s a heavy influence. Lumis’ and Axiom’s feats both have things that hold them back from being capable of turning a tide that powerful

Though Theory and Gargano can mitigate that skill gap via their IR. Let's not forget Theory and Gargano's finishers as well, along with their Social Influencing, which will be a GG for Team FF.

Both teams have numerous win cons over each other, it'll just be hard to determine who will get the final blow first.

They’ll be able to ease a nasty skill advantage into one with some mild levels of relevance to the match, yes, but won’t mitigate it entirely. Social Influencing is just... not a particularly likely win-con from the vast pool of ways this match can go, and with CQC disadvantages as well as those tricky air-combos, I’m not seeing anything The Way can rely on to be just as consistent of a winning ability, so I’ll stick my vote down for Team Fatal Fury high-diff

 

[Pikaman]

In fact he should probably get that if he doesn't already.

He doesn’t have a profile lmao

 

[Chariot190]

As long as I don't need sound, yeah sure. If I do, just describe it ig.

Or well, tbh I don't think that's gonna matter, instead I'm more interested in the "higher" with those moves, how high we talking? That might matter.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Or well, tbh I don't think that's gonna matter, instead I'm more interested in the "higher" with those moves, how high we talking? That might matter.

To give an example of how powerful finishers are, James Ellsworth, widely regarded as one of the weakest wrestlers ever, managed to almost beat AJ Styles with his finisher. AJ Styles is widely regarded as one of the best wrestlers on the planet, and he has beaten people like John Cena clean.

 

[Pikaman]

As long as I don't need sound, yeah sure. If I do, just describe it ig.

Or well, tbh I don't think that's gonna matter, instead I'm more interested in the "higher" with those moves, how high we talking? That might matter.

Finishers are really, really tricky to index. They can be inconsistent at times, but most of the time they knock the recipient out cold. We can’t put a number on them, and we actually made a CRT to try and find an ideal way of indexing them, as the “higher” is far from perfect as a system for finishers, but we were just told there’s not really a better option. The best way to contextualise it is a fodder/comedy relief’s finisher nearly one-shot a God Tier of the verse. Generally my rule is as long as AP is relatively comparable, finishers will usually K.O. after a bit of damage beforehand, which wrestlers usually inflict before hitting finishers in-character anyways

 

[RandomGuy2345]

As long as I don't need sound, yeah sure. If I do, just describe it ig.

Though just in case, here's a description for Axiom:

There’s this new WWE wrestler called Axiom. In this promo, he’s billed as someone who can quickly analyze and react to anything thanks to his gift for mathematics, which he uses to defeat wrestlers in the ring. To make it simpler, while in matches, he quickly analyzes and reacts to his opponents by using formulas in his head.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

It... kinda is sizeable enough unless we start talking about God Tiers, who are probably more skilled in exchange for being less varied. Theory and Gargano are masters of a few martial arts, with experience against masters of a much wider pool. Team Fatal Fury are above someone who has mastered every. single. one.

That’s not a game-breaking difference, but it’s a heavy influence. Lumis’ and Axiom’s feats both have things that hold them back from being capable of turning a tide that powerful

I'm not saying Theory and Gargano can completely turn the tide of the battle thanks scaling far above Axiom and being comparable to Lumis, but I will say that it will mitigate the skill gap enough to where it won't play a massive factor in the fight. It's certainly there, but it's not anything crazy.

Social Influencing is just... not a particularly likely win-con from the vast pool of ways this match can go,

I highly doubt it. Both Theory and Gargano won't hesitate to SL their way to a victory if they really have no other choice (especially Theory).

and with CQC disadvantages as well as those tricky air-combos, I’m not seeing anything The Way can rely on to be just as consistent of a winning ability, so I’ll stick my vote down for Team Fatal Fury high-diff

You keep blaming me for making Gargano have a negative record, yet you vote against him here.

The main problem The Way will have here are those air-combos, as well as the range disadvantage.

I'd like to also mention that The Way has the homefield advantage, and WWE wrestlers are pretty good at using the ring to their advantage, so that's another advantage there.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

He doesn’t have a profile lmao

Bruh

 

[Pikaman]

Bruh

Ayo since when?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Ayo since when?

A while ago iirc.

 

[Pikaman]

I highly doubt it. Both Theory and Gargano won't hesitate to SL their way to a victory if they really have no other choice (especially Theory).

Yeah but like... there’s so many avenues this could go down, you yourself admitted that. SI isn’t reliable or consistent enough to turn the tides of disadvantages where The Way normally specialise

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Yeah but like... there’s so many avenues this could go down, you yourself admitted that. SI isn’t reliable or consistent enough to turn the tides of disadvantages where The Way normally specialise

A win con is a win con.

You can't undermine one of them because "There's so many ways this fight could end."

 

[Pikaman]

A win-con is a win-con. But each win-con is only a singular weight of varying mass tipping a scale by whatever amount one way or another, I’m saying SI just isn’t heavy enough to make up for disadvantages in Skill and LS, where Theory and Gargano kinda rely on being able to be at the very least around even to their opponent on an overall scale. By themselves the advantages are little, but they build up into something that poses far more great when you look at the full picture.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I’m saying SI just isn’t heavy enough to make up for disadvantages in Skill and LS

We already talked about Skill. That gets mitigated by Lumis' and Axiom's feats to an extent. LS is fair, though.

where Theory and Gargano kinda rely on being able to be at the very least around even to their opponent on an overall scale.

Nah. In wrestling, there have been multiple matchups where wrestlers have very clear distinct advantages over each other. Theory and Gargano are no exception to this at all. Having disadvantages in speed, skill, LS, and AP are common things in the verse that wrestlers have to overcome.

 

[Pikaman]

We already talked about Skill. That gets mitigated by Lumis' and Axiom's feats to an extent. LS is fair, though

Key word(s) is “to an extent”

Nah. In wrestling, there have been multiple matchups where wrestlers have very clear distinct advantages over each other. Theory and Gargano are no exception to this at all. Having disadvantages in speed, skill, LS, and AP are common things in the verse that wrestlers have to overcome.

Yes, they have experienced being disadvantaged before, but that doesn’t mitigate those advantages. Theory and Gargano will always be less comfortable dealing with someone who’s stronger and more skilled than them, considering those are meant to be their areas of expertise

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Key word(s) is “to an extent”

The skill gap isn't big to begin with. With Lumis' and Axiom's feats, the skill gap gets mitigated a fair bit to where Theory and especially Gargano won't have big troubles keeping up with Terry and Joe.

Yes, they have experienced being disadvantaged before, but that doesn’t mitigate those advantages. Theory and Gargano will always be less comfortable dealing with someone who’s stronger and more skilled than them, considering those are meant to be their areas of expertise

Yes, but the way you worded your comment made it seem like you were saying Theory and Gargano solely rely on facing people around their level, which couldn't be further from the truth. Both Theory and Gargano have fought some of the best the business has to offer. The skill gap here isn't big enough to be extremely detrimental for Theory and Gargano.

If anything, it's not even Terry and Joe's skill and LS advantages that are detrimental. It's their fighting styles that Theory and Gargano will struggle with the most here.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I will also like to mention that Theory and especially Gargano have some solid Pain Tolerance as well.

 

[Chariot190]

Theory and Gargano will always be less comfortable dealing with someone who’s stronger and more skilled than them

Well technically, calc wise, they're stronger.
T̵h̵o̵u̵g̵h̵ ̵p̵r̵e̵t̵t̵y̵ ̵s̵u̵r̵e̵ ̵s̵t̵r̵o̵n̵g̵ ̵a̵t̵t̵a̵c̵k̵s̵ ̵a̵n̵d̵ ̵s̵u̵p̵e̵r̵s̵ ̵c̵a̵n̵ ̵c̵a̵u̵s̵e̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵s̵t̵a̵g̵e̵ ̵d̵e̵s̵t̵r̵u̵c̵t̵i̵o̵n̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵l̵i̵k̵e̵ ̵2̵-̵3̵ ̵h̵i̵t̵s̵.̵

I will also like to mention that Theory and especially Gargano have some solid Pain Tolerance as well.

If I said Terry is basically a anime character (even has a few animes), that should give you a solid idea of where he's at.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Well technically, calc wise, they're stronger.
T̵h̵o̵u̵g̵h̵ ̵p̵r̵e̵t̵t̵y̵ ̵s̵u̵r̵e̵ ̵s̵t̵r̵o̵n̵g̵ ̵a̵t̵t̵a̵c̵k̵s̵ ̵a̵n̵d̵ ̵s̵u̵p̵e̵r̵s̵ ̵c̵a̵n̵ ̵c̵a̵u̵s̵e̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵s̵t̵a̵g̵e̵ ̵d̵e̵s̵t̵r̵u̵c̵t̵i̵o̵n̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵l̵i̵k̵e̵ ̵2̵-̵3̵ ̵h̵i̵t̵s̵.̵

The AP gaps here are super negligible.

Also, Theory and Gargano's finishers will put an end to this when hit.

If I said Terry is basically a anime character (even has a few animes), that should give you a solid idea of where he's at.

What kind of shit has he done for Pain Tolerance?

 

[Chariot190]

The AP gaps here are super negligible.

Also, Theory and Gargano's finishers will put an end to this when hit.


What kind of shit has he done for Pain Tolerance?

Profile lacks any notable ones for some reason, but the profile's stamina section does have a facet of a good one, in that characters can literally beat the ever ******* shit out of each other, for days, and just continue fighting unaffected despite getting throttled that whole time. Getting smashed through steel, walls, buildings, etc, getting your face caved? Immolated? etc, only to go aight and be basically unaffected.

 

[Shmooply]

Why are we discussing pain tolerance feats all of a sudden? Theory and Gargano absolutely wouldn't be able to tolerate having genuine hurricanes and geyser-like attacks constantly thrown in their face, especially Buster Wolf or Triple Geyser.

 

[Chariot190]

Why are we discussing pain tolerance feats all of a sudden? Theory and Gargano absolutely wouldn't be able to tolerate having genuine hurricanes and geyser-like attacks constantly thrown in their face, especially Buster Wolf or Triple Geyser.

Shrug, tbh the fact Terry got that janky frame links and confirms and projectile spam is gonna be hard to get around ngl.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Profile lacks any notable ones for some reason, but the profile's stamina section does have a facet of a good one, in that characters can literally beat the ever ******* shit out of each other, for days, and just continue fighting unaffected despite getting throttled that whole time. Getting smashed through steel, walls, buildings, etc, getting your face caved? Immolated? etc, only to go aight and be basically unaffected.

Both Theory and Gargano have fought in matches that involve taking shots from steel steps and chairs, as well as kendo sticks, which will leave massive welts and bruises. They have also taken attacks on straight concrete and steel structures. Theory has fought through injuries such as broken fingers and a swollen/broken jaw.

Gargano is quite notorious for his willpower and his strong threshold for pain. He can fight for extended periods of time and can continue to fight. He was legit buried under multiple foreign objects, and still had the willpower to break his way out.

Why are we discussing pain tolerance feats all of a sudden? Theory and Gargano absolutely wouldn't be able to tolerate having genuine hurricanes and geyser-like attacks constantly thrown in their face, especially Buster Wolf or Triple Geyser.

Assuming Theory and Gargano will just stand there and get hit.

Also, I'm pretty sure those attacks are on the same level of AP as Terry and Joe's normal attacks, so I'm sure Theory and Gargano will be fine. Having "genuine hurricanes" and "geyser-like" attacks sound cool on paper, but it doesn't really matter here in this scenario, as those attacks are still the same as their normal AP, which is slightly below Theory and Gargano's.

 

[Bruhtelho]

Assuming Theory and Gargano will just stand there and get hit.

Also, I'm pretty sure those attacks are on the same level of AP as Terry and Joe's normal attacks, so I'm sure Theory and Gargano will be fine. Having "genuine hurricanes" and "geyser-like" attacks sound cool on paper, but it doesn't really matter here in this scenario, as those attacks are still the same as their normal AP, which is slightly below Theory and Gargano's.

that is not the case, they're super moves and special moves which involve them using chi which increases their already base 2.8 MJ AP higher and Super Moves are massively above that dealing far more damage then the ordinary punch or special move, again dodging is gonna be a pain to do cause of AOE which those moves have literal tornados that can lift you off the ground and multi-hitting Ki explosions.

 

[Chariot190]

Both Theory and Gargano have fought in matches that involve taking shots from steel steps and chairs, as well as kendo sticks, which will leave massive welts and bruises. They have also taken attacks on straight concrete and steel structures. Theory has fought through injuries such as broken fingers and a swollen/broken jaw.

Gargano is quite notorious for his willpower and his strong threshold for pain. He can fight for extended periods of time and can continue to fight. He was legit buried under multiple foreign objects, and still had the willpower to break his way out.

Yes, but they haven't done that for like, literally a day or two without rest.

 

[Shmooply]

Assuming Theory and Gargano will just stand there and get hit.

Also, I'm pretty sure those attacks are on the same level of AP as Terry and Joe's normal attacks, so I'm sure Theory and Gargano will be fine. Having "genuine hurricanes" and "geyser-like" attacks sound cool on paper, but it doesn't really matter here in this scenario, as those attacks are still the same as their normal AP, which is slightly below Theory and Gargano's.

No, that's the problem. If they try to use their finishers or grapple them or whatever, they're in for a world of hurt.

"Oh! The attacks have the same AP as them, so it wouldn't really affect them." makes no sense whatsoever. They don't resist air or fire hax, and those special/super moves of Team Fatal Fury juggles opponents comparable to them anyway. I genuinely don't understand how would Theory and Gargano not be picked up by Joe's hurricanes and get their shit absolutely wrecked considering it's a hurricane and they're just normal guys.

 

[Chariot190]

Damage Boost (Can charge his Ki to perform powerful Super Attacks)

The profile acknowledges that supers above normal AP.
Though Terry can seemingly spawn geysers under his foe (within range) as shown in Triple, so that's a huge issue.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Shrug, tbh the fact Terry got that janky frame links and confirms and projectile spam is gonna be hard to get around ngl.

This is the biggest issue The Way will be dealing with here.

Like I said already, it's Terry and Joe's fighting styles that will cause the biggest issues here.

that is not the case, they're super moves and special moves which involve them using chi which increases their already base 2.8 MJ AP higher and Super Moves are massively above that dealing far more damage then the ordinary punch or special move.

Theory and Gargano have tanked finisher moves in matches and have still fought on, and finishers are already massively above a wrestler's normal moves. The bottom of the barrel of the WWE verse harmed and nearly defeated one of the best wrestlers on the planet with a finishing move.

No, that's the problem. If they try to use their finishes or grapple them or whatever, they're in a world of hurt.

...If Joe and Terry try to use a ranged attack, the first thing Gargano and Theory would do is dodge. Not try and hit their finisher.

"Oh! The attacks have the same AP as them, so it wouldn't really affect them." makes no sense whatsoever.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make, but go off. I was saying they can fight through the pain.

I genuinely don't understand how would Theory and Gargano not be picked up by Joe's hurricanes and get their shit absolutely wrecked considering it's a hurricane and they're just normal guys.

You're acting like I'm saying they wouldn't get picked up. Plus, WWE guys have literally fought on in matches where they have took finishing moves, Theory and Gargano being no exception.

The profile acknowledges that supers above normal AP.
Though Terry can seemingly spawn geysers under his foe (within range) as shown in Triple, so that's a huge issue.

It says he has to charge his Ki in order to perform it. Is there a specific charging time for it?

 

[Bruhtelho]

It says he has to charge his Ki in order to perform it. Is there a specific charging time for it?

he simply charges his Ki and throws his fist down, it barely takes a second for him to do.