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The Unwritten: Utu and Enlil profile deletion and some other things
- Thread starter Sandman31
- Start date
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From what I can see, High 1-A is definitely warranted for the Leviathan. A transcendental hierarchy with the Leviathans is definitely implied but I'm not sure if there's enough evidence here for me to agree with it outright. So, I'm neutral on that matter for now.
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I'm still fine with the High 1-A rating. Just not the scale of High 1-A Sandman is pushing for.
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Well, i don't think that would be really accurate delete Utu and Enlil profiles.
"The Unwritten" is, as already explored more deeply by Sandman31 os his explanations, fundamented in the concept of belief systems that Mike Carey already presented in others of his works, where the divinities are an fruit from the collective belief emanated as an defined entity (as most famous example, his reference in "Lucifer #75" relating Yahweh as a fruit of human's belief).
Utu and Enlil are part of this respective system, wouldn't make any sense exclude both of they based on "limited info" or the possibility of they being an false story, this is just an misconception about the philosophy in the work, there isn't "false stories", just different belief systems.
However, i don't think too that they would be above The Leviathan (at least the "real" Leviathan), since they're fruits of an respective belief system, and all of they emanates through the collective unconscious (this "metaphysical channel") which The Leviathan englobes.
"The Unwritten" is, as already explored more deeply by Sandman31 os his explanations, fundamented in the concept of belief systems that Mike Carey already presented in others of his works, where the divinities are an fruit from the collective belief emanated as an defined entity (as most famous example, his reference in "Lucifer #75" relating Yahweh as a fruit of human's belief).
Utu and Enlil are part of this respective system, wouldn't make any sense exclude both of they based on "limited info" or the possibility of they being an false story, this is just an misconception about the philosophy in the work, there isn't "false stories", just different belief systems.
However, i don't think too that they would be above The Leviathan (at least the "real" Leviathan), since they're fruits of an respective belief system, and all of they emanates through the collective unconscious (this "metaphysical channel") which The Leviathan englobes.
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I'm saying they're excluded from the system, just that their part in the system is not just as significant as I thought before. That plus the the fact that they only appeared in a single page in the entire series makes me think that there's no reason for their profiles
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Linking directly to Fandom images does not seem to work. You need to use this method instead:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Unwritten2.jpg
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Unwritten2.jpg
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I'm not conceding Ant. I know you're busy and all and want this to end already but there's no "reason stated above"
I've responded to all legitimate arguments made by Ultima and Warren but how am I suppose to respond to people saying they don't agree without actually saying why?
I'll wait for Ultima to respond because he's really the only one that's properly discussing this with me.
If he already lost interest then I'll also just abandon this thread. Feels like I'm talking to myself
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Okay. I will ask them and others to comment here. Although it is very unlikely that Warren will resond.
@Ultima_Reality @Warren_Valion @Qawsedf234 @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Planck69 @Sera_EX @Ovy7 @YuriAkuto @Ionliosite @First_Witch @Elizhaa
Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?
@Ultima_Reality @Warren_Valion @Qawsedf234 @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Planck69 @Sera_EX @Ovy7 @YuriAkuto @Ionliosite @First_Witch @Elizhaa
Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?
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guess the nebulas are gonna be the strongest high 1-As
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I already gave opinion.
Although looking over it I think I have a better understanding of what Sandman is going for that I didn't originally. The Leviathan being some reality-fiction level above the lesser ones is my main issue with it since they seemingly operate on the same layer of existence but at a weaker power. Like Ultima said I'm in agreement that every whale is more powerful than the last, with the Leviathan being the most powerful in the infinite chain; but I don't believe every whale is infinitely more powerful than the last.
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Thanks Ant.
Anyway, here's the graph that I made.
The Leviathan being some reality-fiction level above the lesser ones is my main issue with it since they seemingly operate on the same layer of existence but at a weaker power
They don't exists at the same layer. If all the whales existed at the same layer then the crisis at the end of the series wouldn't make sense.
In The Unwritten: Apocalypse, the main Leviathan was dying which caused everything to go haywire. The Leviathans being in the same layer/world was the one causing all of the mess. The Leviathan's being in the same layer of existence resulted in all the worlds being mixed up as "As a result, all worlds are now this one. Every dream was true, and every truth was broken"
As I explained above, the Leviathans are basically the metaphor for humanity, the stacked oceans are the sea of unconsciousness of each humanity in the worlds of stories.
The Worlds of Stories and The Leviathan's/oceans have a 1:1 correspondence, as shown above, the Leviathans existing in the same layer caused all worlds to be merged into one. They cant exists in the same layer, them existing in the same layer means the cosmology is broken just like when the Leviathan was dying. The oceans of unconsciousness and the Leviathans are stacked up and transcend each other just like how the Hierarchy of Stories transcends each other. Then there's the bit about what Mike Carey said about humanity becoming God through becoming self aware as story tellers and how we create another humanity that will also become God to whom we are God. Then there's also the whales containing each other, which as I already said before, a common metaphor to express the Leviathan's transcendence the stories
https://www.cbr.com/commentary-track-carey-gross-on-the-unwritten-apocalypse-1/
Gross: I think there is an urge in humankind to create surreality. In our stories, we are always trying to create another reality; in our art, we are trying to create another reality. Look what you can do with movies and 3D printing. We're trying to create another reality alongside the other reality that we have. It's our basic nature. It's like striving to become God. There's something going as we are able to create virtual realities.
Carey: It's a turning point in human evolution. The moment when we learn to make counterfactual worlds, what would happen if I poked that beehive with a stick? What would happen if I piled rocks up in the streams? The water level would rise up and create something different. It's that ability to leap outside of what's really there to what might be there that allows us to manipulate the world -- to turn the world into our tool. It's both our greatest strength and our greatest weakness. We're storytellers before we're anything else.
Gross: If I gave any credence to the idea of there being a God, it would be that we are the gaming creations of some other reality. [Laughs] We're like "Sim City" becoming self aware. And we're going to end up creating our own reality, which we will be the god and then they will become aware and then they will create theirs. Maybe we're just this series of toys...
Carey: Links in a chain.
Mike Carey is talking about humanity, about how we strive to become God. I think this scan perfectly illustrates what Mike Carey was saying about how we strive to become God. The Leviathan, which is the representation of humanity's fictional unconscious/collective power, "evolves" alongside humans, growing more powerful as humanity becomes more self aware, we see the Leviathan grew in power until it eventually became the God that dominates everything.
Humanity becomes self aware and turns into "God", humanity then creates another world and humanity to whom they're God which then becomes self aware and the cycle continues.
https://www.portlandmercury.com/Blo...01/07/an-qanda-with-the-unwrittens-mike-carey
Mike Carey: Yes, they’ll all be different styles as we shift between those texts. And there is a point to it, it’s not just, “Let’s have another whale.” There is kind of a key here to what’s going on. Actually, the key lies in Hobbes’ Leviathan, which of course is not a whale at all, it’s a metaphor for the human race, for people
"And I know you can't answer me. Speak with one voice or anything. Because you're not one voice. You're all of them. Hobbes's whale, not Sinbad's or Jonah's, or Munchhausen's. And Hobbes whale was just a symbol. It stood for the power of masses. A billion living things making up one huge entity"
The whales were also stated to contain each other in their stomach, with the Leviathan being the final whale in the chain clearly indicates some sort of transcendence since the stories being in the "whale's stomach/belly" is also a metaphor commonly used in the series to explain the transcendence of the Leviathan to stories. I say its a metaphor for transcendence as the Leviathans being whales is also just a metaphor
Anyway, here's the graph that I made.
The Leviathan being some reality-fiction level above the lesser ones is my main issue with it since they seemingly operate on the same layer of existence but at a weaker power
They don't exists at the same layer. If all the whales existed at the same layer then the crisis at the end of the series wouldn't make sense.
In The Unwritten: Apocalypse, the main Leviathan was dying which caused everything to go haywire. The Leviathans being in the same layer/world was the one causing all of the mess. The Leviathan's being in the same layer of existence resulted in all the worlds being mixed up as "As a result, all worlds are now this one. Every dream was true, and every truth was broken"
As I explained above, the Leviathans are basically the metaphor for humanity, the stacked oceans are the sea of unconsciousness of each humanity in the worlds of stories.
The Worlds of Stories and The Leviathan's/oceans have a 1:1 correspondence, as shown above, the Leviathans existing in the same layer caused all worlds to be merged into one. They cant exists in the same layer, them existing in the same layer means the cosmology is broken just like when the Leviathan was dying. The oceans of unconsciousness and the Leviathans are stacked up and transcend each other just like how the Hierarchy of Stories transcends each other. Then there's the bit about what Mike Carey said about humanity becoming God through becoming self aware as story tellers and how we create another humanity that will also become God to whom we are God. Then there's also the whales containing each other, which as I already said before, a common metaphor to express the Leviathan's transcendence the stories
https://www.cbr.com/commentary-track-carey-gross-on-the-unwritten-apocalypse-1/
Gross: I think there is an urge in humankind to create surreality. In our stories, we are always trying to create another reality; in our art, we are trying to create another reality. Look what you can do with movies and 3D printing. We're trying to create another reality alongside the other reality that we have. It's our basic nature. It's like striving to become God. There's something going as we are able to create virtual realities.
Carey: It's a turning point in human evolution. The moment when we learn to make counterfactual worlds, what would happen if I poked that beehive with a stick? What would happen if I piled rocks up in the streams? The water level would rise up and create something different. It's that ability to leap outside of what's really there to what might be there that allows us to manipulate the world -- to turn the world into our tool. It's both our greatest strength and our greatest weakness. We're storytellers before we're anything else.
Gross: If I gave any credence to the idea of there being a God, it would be that we are the gaming creations of some other reality. [Laughs] We're like "Sim City" becoming self aware. And we're going to end up creating our own reality, which we will be the god and then they will become aware and then they will create theirs. Maybe we're just this series of toys...
Carey: Links in a chain.
Mike Carey is talking about humanity, about how we strive to become God. I think this scan perfectly illustrates what Mike Carey was saying about how we strive to become God. The Leviathan, which is the representation of humanity's fictional unconscious/collective power, "evolves" alongside humans, growing more powerful as humanity becomes more self aware, we see the Leviathan grew in power until it eventually became the God that dominates everything.
Humanity becomes self aware and turns into "God", humanity then creates another world and humanity to whom they're God which then becomes self aware and the cycle continues.
https://www.portlandmercury.com/Blo...01/07/an-qanda-with-the-unwrittens-mike-carey
Mike Carey: Yes, they’ll all be different styles as we shift between those texts. And there is a point to it, it’s not just, “Let’s have another whale.” There is kind of a key here to what’s going on. Actually, the key lies in Hobbes’ Leviathan, which of course is not a whale at all, it’s a metaphor for the human race, for people
"And I know you can't answer me. Speak with one voice or anything. Because you're not one voice. You're all of them. Hobbes's whale, not Sinbad's or Jonah's, or Munchhausen's. And Hobbes whale was just a symbol. It stood for the power of masses. A billion living things making up one huge entity"
The whales were also stated to contain each other in their stomach, with the Leviathan being the final whale in the chain clearly indicates some sort of transcendence since the stories being in the "whale's stomach/belly" is also a metaphor commonly used in the series to explain the transcendence of the Leviathan to stories. I say its a metaphor for transcendence as the Leviathans being whales is also just a metaphor
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But from what I got from your blog every Leviathan exists within the ocean outside of reality. Making them irrelevant to this perspective since they exist within the same area, which some scans show with multiple Levithans being visible at once.
Do they not all exist within the ocean?
I'm just not getting this from your explanation. I'm seeing it more like the above than the below.
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That does seem like it supports the idea that there's a correspondence between the Cetacean Regression and the Hierarchy of Stores. Though, is it specifically stated that the stories all became one because the Leviathans' hierarchy went haywire? I don't have much context to go off here, so I'm asking for citations to make sure.
What do "the old stories" refer to here, exactly? Based on the stuff about the Leviathan being the primordial whale of the hierarchy and the placement of them in your graph up there, I get the impression that they're supposed to be the primal stories from which every fictional world is derived. But, again, I'm asking for confirmation.
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Yeah, the first time it was explained/shown happening was when a kids horror stories were turning into reality. First it was thought that his power comes from the Leviathan but it was then later explained that that's not really the case as the Leviathan is dying and losing its power, it was then revealed that a fry of Leviathan latched into his stories/mind (As Apocalypse reveals, the Leviathans doesn't feed on the stories or the mind themselves but on the place where the mind touches the stories which basically means they dont actually exists in the either of them which is what makes them greater than both).
"At this moment the Leviathan has no power"
The Leviathans "own" stories, like how he "owns" the old stories
"His imminent death leaves a gap in the food chain. And so they come" (And as explained, the role of the Leviathan in the chain is the mother/the source so its messed up everything)
This is the first time we were shown that the Leviathans are coming into the world and basically making peoples stories true. Apocalypse then revealed that the Leviathan's absence were the reason why his kind were in that world and the Leviathans are the reason why the HoS are all messed up
"Now Tom is lost to us, the beast has hidden from our sight. In its place the young of its kind come to feed upon us...When we dream or lie they com. When we boast or fantasize, bear witness, reminisce, seduce. When we touch a world that isnt this one. As a result, all worlds are now this one. Every dream is true, and every truth is broken"
So Leviathan losing power > the chain goes haywire > the stories goes haywire
Yeah, they're the oldest stories that are the source of every other stories. The old stories dying was causing every other stories to die also, except for the "new stories" by the other Leviathans which, from what I gather, will be the start of other hierarchy of stories after the current hierarchy of stories collapses (Every story and Leviathan will create their own world/hierarchy now that they became free from the Leviathan)
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/yxWKSSp9x...Po5qxVxhUPrkXy6zPdQzbUnEOLbTPX9jYvHA70w=s1600
"The Darkness will swallow up the land but this tower will endure"
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/J5vuaHurv...JNKeY38coCHZp9AjJwcBS5AvechYc9z4db4QKlQ=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/J5vuaHurv...JNKeY38coCHZp9AjJwcBS5AvechYc9z4db4QKlQ=s1600
"If he wins the world ends"
"A world ends. For me, and for mine, that will not be so great a tragedy"
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/UCqXI_vvf...WSpJssMUULDaZDypDV42yLUgsbn-k30o5lCgt4A=s1600
"The fry of Leviathan.."
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/30pImhPPu...n6L3NQ_yyVRLSA58i67DBg7n5NKa-ZDrk9YuqQg=s1600
"Do you understand now? We don't live in your world. The rules are what we make them"
https://www.cbr.com/trade-waiting-carey-gross-open-the-wound-on-the-unwritten/
Carey: Yes, there is definitely an ecosystem of creatures like Leviathan, any one of which could theoretically step into that role. We'll be looking at more of what the implications of that are as we go forward
"This is the only way well ever get free. We'll be our own Leviathan. Dream our own dreams, and live in a world we build for ourselves"
As the old stories die, new stories wake and stretch — without Leviathan to rein them in. And detective Didge Patterson gets pulled into a messy homicide case that brings together a strange, young boy with a wicked imagination, a pack of zombies and one very hungry vampire journalist.
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Just waiting for Ultima and the others to reply
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I take it that this refers to the act of creating stories in general, yes? The panel seems to treat the whole thing as something abnormal, so it seems a bit strange to take it into account for the normal cosmology, but if that's the case, then I'd be fine with saying the Leviathans actually form a transcendental hierarchy.
Although, something that got me curious was the fact that the topmost Leviathan is said to be the only whale in the hierarchy that is large enough to contain worlds, which would be a bit strange when put together with the interpretation of the cosmology you outlined up there. Do you have any explanation for that?
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This is the page that continues that conversation. It's just reistating that the Leviathan contains the hierarchy of stories. So it's not saying that the Leviathan is the only one that can contain whole worlds but that the Leviathan is the only one that "contains" ALL worlds
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So, I've been reading through the relevant parts of Unwriten and Unwritten: Apocalypse, and it seems like this panel doesn't really refer to each whale in the regression actually corresponding to a layer in the hierarchy of stories, considering that, immediately after it, Pullman says that there is only one Leviathan that presides over every story in existence, and that Will's plan would just make every human into its own Leviathan holding dominion over their own world. The Cetacean Hierarchy doesn't even touch the conversation, even.
Likewise, the fry of the Leviathan are themselves implied to not hold sway over any story, as you seem to be implying. Instead of that, they infect stories and parasitically feed on them until they are corrupted and broken beyond repair. And because of that they are even compared to cankers, which earlier in the comic are said to be tortured stories that were corrupted by being forced to go against their purpose. Not to say that they are the same thing, obviously, since the Leviathan's fry are explicitly independent of the hierarchy of stories and wouldn't be affected by its destruction, but the fact that they are said to function similarly seems to weaken your argument.
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panel doesn't really refer to each whale in the regression actually corresponding to a layer in the hierarchy of stories
Nowhere did I claim otherwise, I put it in there to show that the Leviathans could not exists in the same "layer/world" together because that means the hierarchy is broken. The Leviathans acts as humanity's interface to stories and represent humanity's collective power, thats why having multiple Leviathans feeding in the same "layer" of humanity's unconscious is a big problem because that means the hierarchy is broken and as shown, if that hierarchy breaks then the hierarchy of stories also breaks
Also, pretty sure that the "one Leviathan" Pullman is referring to is the one "mother" Leviathan. Not that there's literally only one Leviathan. When the Leviathan gets mentioned then its almost always referring to the main Leviathan. The Leviathan being in control of all stories and all of its kin is also something that I didn't deny
Their plan was to break free of the Leviathan's control. Not just create their own world as in another one in the hierarchy that is under the Leviathan, but create one that exists outside the rules set by the Leviathan.
"Do you understand now? We don't live in your world. The rules are what we make them"
https://www.cbr.com/trade-waiting-carey-gross-open-the-wound-on-the-unwritten/
Carey: Yes, there is definitely an ecosystem of creatures like Leviathan, any one of which could theoretically step into that role. We'll be looking at more of what the implications of that are as we go forward.
The hierarchy factors into this as we know that all of these happened because there was a gap in the chain ("There's a gap in the food chain and so they come")
Instead of that, they infect stories and parasitically feed on them until they are corrupted and broken beyond repair
The Leviathans doesn't infect stories themselves but the place where the stories touch the mind. They're two different things. This was addressed in the Apocalypse
"Some say they eat stories, but in fact they feed at the places where a story touches the mind"
They're infecting the place where the story touches the human mind and then they turn the stories touched by the mind into reality.
That's why everything is "broken", theres no truth or lie anymore and all worlds became one
There's nothing real anymore because multiple Leviathans means multiple "realities" or in this case there's no "reality" and "story" anymore. The Leviathans are the "interface", they are the one who makes the distinction between the stories. All of them being in the same layer means the distinction is loss and thus all worlds are one
The fry of Leviathans in this context are not infecting the stories but humanity's unconscious itself without the hierarchy created by the main Leviathan. The stories being all messed up is just a side of effect
They have to exists at different levels/layers
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Bump
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I can delete the Utu and Enlil profile pages if you wish, but I think that the information within The Leviathan page, and possibly other character profiles, need to be rewritten accordingly. Would you be willing to handle that @Sandman31 ?
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Yeah, fair enough, then.
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I have deleted the Utu and Enlil pages and removed all links to them.
What else needs to be done here? Do any summaries and descriptions in other character profile pages need to be updated?
Also, I think that The Unwritten (and Fables and Preacher) should get their own verse pages separate from DC Comics.
What else needs to be done here? Do any summaries and descriptions in other character profile pages need to be updated?
Also, I think that The Unwritten (and Fables and Preacher) should get their own verse pages separate from DC Comics.
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I
I think there should be a separate vertigo page just for series that are not located in dc
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