The Ultimate Saiyan Form V The Divine Saiyan Form

[RedReaper616]

Fresh off the heels of that amazing GT Goku thread, I want to put him up against someone. And looking at the Baby V Black thread, I had a stellar idea.

The Ultimate Saiyan Warrior.

Vs

The Divine Saiyan Warrior.

Incon:

Standard Battle Assumptions, Speed Equalized, Final Goku Black Key, Super 17 Goku Key.

Based on the Cryo’s Scaling chains this should be pretty close.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Unfortunately it probably counts as a stomp because as pointed out by Tegami in the Baby vs Black thread, Kid Buu should be the strongest Buu in the Kai continuity. Which makes SS3 Goku over baseline 2-C before achieving God.

That effectively doubles all the AP values in my DBS chain which would make Goku Black over 51.2 quadrillion 2-C while SS4 Goku would be 16.38 quadrillion 2-C (3.12x AP gap)

There is still potential in Goku using the 10x Kamehameha to inflate his AP to over 163.8 quadrillion 2-C but I don't think this would kill Black and risks triggering his RE/AD to evolve his body. And there's a possibility that Goku won't even get the chance to use the 10x Kamehameha before Black beats him.

Goku's only hope here is that he lands that 10x Kamehameha and that it hurts Black enough that he can't recover And I just don't think that's likely enough to give Goku the W.

So either Black wins or this is a stomp in Black's favour. With SS4 Goku's one wincon being the 10x Kamehameha. Which depends on:

• Black not beating Goku before he even gets to use it
• Black not managing to dodge the blast or counter it (I mean realistically Black's own Super Kamehameha should multiply his power level so it'd be pretty even in a clash anyways)
• Black not surviving and growing stronger via his AD and demolishing Goku immediately after

So for now I'm voting Black but I wouldn't be shocked if this constitutes a stomp.

 

[RedReaper616]

I mean, a 3x AP gap isn’t insurmountable. Plus, Goku should be capable of growing mid fight via Ki Absorption and his own RE/AD. Not to mention I feel like GTku has the skills, abilities, and stamina to keep himself in the fight long enough to land what he needs. For example, against Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta, he could still maintain SSJ4 even with only enough Ki to do a basic KHH.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I mean, a 3x AP gap isn’t insurmountable. Plus, Goku should be capable of growing mid fight via Ki Absorption and his own RE/AD. Not to mention I feel like GTku has the skills, abilities, and stamina to keep himself in the fight long enough to land what he needs. For example, against Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta, he could still maintain SSJ4 even with only enough Ki to do a basic KHH.

Issue being that Black has arguably superior AD, starts with that 3x AP advantage and has demonstrated that he has relative skill level to DBS Goku who I feel generally demonstrates better skill feats than GT Goku does. Stamina-wise is incredibly vague because the anime kind of just ignores Blue having stamina problems entirely and it's unclear if Rose has any problems in the first place.

So what GT Goku really has here over Black is 10x Kamehameha (when Black's own Kamehameha should be an at least 2x AP boost given Raditz reads Goku's PL over double when using the Kamehameha. So Black's own Kamehameha won't be much lower than Goku's 10x Kamehameha in AP) and the Energy Absorption.

However while Energy Absorption is useful this is Black's final key who has:

• Clones (who are immortal, regenerative and will keep cloning until the rift is closed or destroyed)
• Resistance to Extrasensory Perception (via his God Ki, so Goku can't even sense him here while Black can sense him)
• Durability Negation via his scythe that can tear rifts in spacetime

So even if Goku somehow surpassed Black's AD and gained relative or superior AP, Black can still just spam clones and kill him with his scythe. And yes while Goku does have resistance to spacetime manipulation it is listed as a 'limited' resistance so I'm unclear if that would even stop Black's scythe from causing serious harm.

Essentially Goku is fighting an uphill battle from the very start of the fight and that hill is going to keep on growing bigger and bigger. The odds simply aren't in his favour here so even if we concede the idea that Goku has wincons, those wincons aren't anywhere as reasonable as Black's wincons.

So my vote remains for Black.

 

[RedReaper616]

Issue being that Black has arguably superior AD, starts with that 3x AP advantage and has demonstrated that he has relative skill level to DBS Goku who I feel generally demonstrates better skill feats than GT Goku does. Stamina-wise is incredibly vague because the anime kind of just ignores Blue having stamina problems entirely and it's unclear if Rose has any problems in the first place.

Really? Such as?

However while Energy Absorption is useful this is Black's final key who has:

• Clones (who are immortal, regenerative and will keep cloning until the rift is closed or destroyed)

Would Plus Energy setting Nature back to the way things should be counter this?

• Resistance to Extrasensory Perception (via his God Ki, so Goku can't even sense him here while Black can sense him)

Actually, Toei Goku counters this. His Ki sensory is a lot more advanced, allowing him to use the disturbances in the energy of the world to track his foes.

• Durability Negation via his scythe that can tear rifts in spacetime

So even if Goku somehow surpassed Black's AD and gained relative or superior AP, Black can still just spam clones and kill him with his scythe. And yes while Goku does have resistance to spacetime manipulation it is listed as a 'limited' resistance so I'm unclear if that would even stop Black's scythe from causing serious harm.

It’s listed as Limited because the attack that dished it out was Limited—The Revenge Death Ball. It warped and redirected Shin’s Kai Kai, affecting the Instant Transmission Zone. Meaning I’d say it’s fair to use as resisting.

Essentially Goku is fighting an uphill battle from the very start of the fight and that hill is going to keep on growing bigger and bigger. The odds simply aren't in his favour here so even if we concede the idea that Goku has wincons, those wincons aren't anywhere as reasonable as Black's wincons.

What about Goku’s speed edge? With his version of IT, he’s able to attack at simulated zero time compared to Black.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Really? Such as?

In regards to what? Skill level?

1. Negating universe destroying shockwaves by adapting to Beerus and synchronising their punches at a particular angle in just 2 or 3 clashes
2. Adapting to Hit's Time Skip and predicting exactly where he will appear to counter him in minimal time
3. Can fight the likes of SS2 Caulifla in his base form using nothing but skill (an opponent who should be dozens of times stronger than him)
4. Comparable to gods like Beerus who have tens of millions of years of experience

And he should also be considered comparable to the skill level of DBS Freeza who could decode Jimeze's entire fighting style after seeing him fight for less than a minute, predict where he would appear with IT and instantly counter him or being able to predict and react to Dyspo's attacks even in base form. When Dyspo was hundreds or even thousands of times faster than him.

The general skill level of characters in Super is just pretty ridiculous. I really don't think GT has nearly as many feats or statements on this scale.

Would Plus Energy setting Nature back to the way things should be counter this?

No I don't believe so. Black isn't inducing chaos or overriding order. He just tore a rift in spacetime. And I don't believe Spacetime Manipulation is considered equivalent to Law Manipulation or Chaos Manipulation.

Actually, Toei Goku counters this. His Ki sensory is a lot more advanced, allowing him to use the disturbances in the energy of the world to track his foes.

It doesn't really serve as a counter. Fact is Black negates an entire sense that Goku has while he gets to use his own sense unimpeded. That gives Goku an inherent sensory disadvantage. Also from what I can tell that's based on the OG DB anime. And I am unclear if the original anime is considered canon to Kai. If it were that would mean Black has this trait as well.

It’s listed as Limited because the attack that dished it out was Limited—The Revenge Death Ball. It warped and redirected Shin’s Kai Kai, affecting the Instant Transmission Zone. Meaning I’d say it’s fair to use as resisting.

And why would we believe that means GT Goku can resist spacetime rips through his body? I don't think warping space is equivalent to slashing apart spacetime. And again this is just a point used in the (very unlikely) event that Goku gains equivalent or superior power to Black via AD.

What about Goku’s speed edge? With his version of IT, he’s able to attack at simulated zero time compared to Black.

I don't think that helps when Goku still needs to exit that space to attack Black. Unless you have examples of Goku hurting people outside of Subspace from within Subspace I have no reason to believe he can. I know his profile claims he can do that but it doesn't cite anything and I can't remember a single instance of Toei Goku ever doing that.

On top of that I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure matches won via speed in speed equalised matches are considered invalid. Like if you use a technique or ability to gain a speed advantage and you need that to win it's just considered an invalid result.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Couldn't GT goku just dragon fist him since it has proven to literally one shot beings far stronger than him?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

On top of that I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure matches won via speed in speed equalised matches are considered in invalid. Like if you use a technique or ability to gain a speed advantage and you need that to win it's just considered an invalid result.

This is only the case if the slower character would win via the speed amp. Toei Goku is faster normally, so he can speed amp and its fine:

Any speed equalized match, in which a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles.
As a result, winning a speed equalized match against a faster opponent due to a speed boost so large that it blitzes the opponent will not be added.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Couldn't GT goku just dragon fist him since it has proven to literally one shot beings far stronger than him?

No. It wouldn't. Because the GT Perfect Files explicitly state the 10x Kamehameha is Goku's strongest technique multiple times. It even states that on the same page it talks about the Dragon Fist.

So Dragon Fist is a <10x multiplier. Does that make sense with Base Goku vs Super 17? No. It's just an inconsistency.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

This is only the case if the slower character would win via the speed amp. Toei Goku is faster normally, so he can speed amp and its fine:

Okay. If that were the case and Toei Goku can, infact, attack from his IT dimension then this would just be a awful stomp and should be closed.

I'd like to see proof that Goku can actually do that though. I genuinely don't know where that claim comes from on his profile.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Okay. If that were the case and Toei Goku can, infact, attack from his IT dimension then this would just be a awful stomp and should be closed.

I'd like to see proof that Goku can actually do that though. I genuinely don't know where that claim comes from on his profile.

Geez, and I thought we could add in GT Vegeta somehow to make this fair but both could literally fuse into gogeta if Goku Black's RPL/AD becomes a threat, in which it becomes a stomp in their favor...

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Okay. If that were the case and Toei Goku can, infact, attack from his IT dimension then this would just be a awful stomp and should be closed.

I'd like to see proof that Goku can actually do that though. I genuinely don't know where that claim comes from on his profile.

Metal Cooler fight around the 2:20 min mark and onwards

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Geez, and I thought we could add in GT Vegeta somehow to make this fair but both could literally fuse into gogeta if Goku Black's RPL/AD becomes a threat, in which it becomes a stomp in their favor...

Really depends on whether or not this part of his profile is legitimate:
"He can also fight whilst doing so, attacking others from this Dimension whilst they themselves cannot attack him.)"

Metal Cooler fight

Not seeing what part of this is meant to suggest Goku can attack other characters from the IT dimension. I only see Cooler punching Goku after exiting the IT dimension, Goku warping out of the IT dimension to tackle Cooler and Cooler grabbing Goku while they are both in the IT dimension. Is there some other part I'm missing here?

 

[RedReaper616]

In regards to what? Skill level?

1. Negating universe destroying shockwaves by adapting to Beerus and synchronising their punches at a particular angle in just 2 or 3 clashes

Fair.

1. Adapting to Hit's Time Skip and predicting exactly where he will appear to counter him in minimal time

Don’t exactly think this works, since Toei Goku was able to predict attacks from a teleporter.

1. Can fight the likes of SS2 Caulifla in his base form using nothing but skill (an opponent who should be dozens of times stronger than him)

Goku can fight 4 people of his own physical equal and perfected versions of his own martial arts (as well as the other Z-Fighters) at once. While he’s not fighting a stronger foe, here, he’s definitely got incredible skill.

1. Comparable to gods like Beerus who have tens of millions of years of experience

Fair.

And he should also be considered comparable to the skill level of DBS Freeza who could decode Jimeze's entire fighting style after seeing him fight for less than a minute,

I mean, Goku was capable of fighting against the Androids who’ve gotten a full readout of his whole fighting style after literally only gaining moments of understanding from their combat.

No I don't believe so. Black isn't inducing chaos or overriding order. He just tore a rift in spacetime. And I don't believe Spacetime Manipulation is considered equivalent to Law Manipulation or Chaos Manipulation.

I was more referring to the Reality Warping portion, but fair.

It doesn't really serve as a counter. Fact is Black negates an entire sense that Goku has while he gets to use his own sense unimpeded.

It absolutely does, sense it means Goku isn’t at all impeded by this.

That gives Goku an inherent sensory disadvantage. Also from what I can tell that's based on the OG DB anime. And I am unclear if the original anime is considered canon to Kai. If it were that would mean Black has this trait as well.

We don’t accept it as so for now (as far as I know). So it should be Toei Goku’s only.

And why would we believe that means GT Goku can resist spacetime rips through his body? I don't think warping space is equivalent to slashing apart spacetime. And again this is just a point used in the (very unlikely) event that Goku gains equivalent or superior power to Black via AD.

I don’t think they’re exactly equivalent, but they are similar. One is warping space as it attacks and damages, the other is cutting space as it damages.

I don't think that helps when Goku still needs to exit that space to attack Black. Unless you have examples of Goku hurting people outside of Subspace from within Subspace I have no reason to believe he can. I know his profile claims he can do that but it doesn't cite anything and I can't remember a single instance of Toei Goku ever doing that.

(Ninja’d). Metal Cooler fight is exactly this. He attacks Cooler in the Subspace, and Cooler attacks at him. That’s the literal context of their IT battle—Them trying to snipe each other back and forth in the Zone. It’s also what Cooler tries to abuse against Vegeta and Goku has to save him from.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It’s also what Cooler tries to abuse against Vegeta and Goku has to save him from.

The portion referenced (7:20 min). Cooler entered IT and was gonna attack Vegeta while inside it.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Don’t exactly think this works, since Toei Goku was able to predict attacks from a teleporter.

Which one? Cooler? That's via using the same technique against him. I assume you mean someone else then.

Goku can fight 4 people of his own physical equal and perfected versions of his own martial arts (as well as the other Z-Fighters) at once. While he’s not fighting a stronger foe, here, he’s definitely got incredible skill.

Certainly, I just don't think that's as good as fighting a singular opponent many times faster and stronger than himself with pure skill.

I mean, Goku was capable of fighting against the Androids who’ve gotten a full readout of his whole fighting style after literally only gaining moments of understanding from their combat.

Similar to Goku fighting characters like Hit then.

It absolutely does, sense it means Goku isn’t at all impeded by this.

It does because Goku is still being forced to depend upon that ability to fight Black while Black doesn't have to do the same. And consider the context of how this was learned with Popo. This is before Goku even started using Ki Sense AFAIK so why would Goku learn a vastly superior version of sensing others then just use Ki Sense anyways?

That would suggest to me that this alternative form of sensing energy is considered inferior to the broader Ki Sensing ability. Which would suggest Black would have a superior sensory ability here.

I don’t think they’re exactly equivalent, but they are similar. One is warping space as it attacks and damages, the other is cutting space as it damages.

Similar isn't quite enough here.

(Ninja’d). Metal Cooler fight is exactly this. He attacks Cooler in the Subspace, and Cooler attacks at him. That’s the literal context of their IT battle—Them trying to snipe each other back and forth in the Zone. It’s also what Cooler tries to abuse against Vegeta and Goku has to save him from.

Again, there is zero example in that entire fight of anyone hitting a person outside of the IT dimension from the IT dimension. Even in the example of Metal Cooler trying to hit Vegeta, we don't even see him actually attack. He's rearing back to attack. Given literally every other example of using IT to attack in that fight I have every reason to believe Cooler was going to warp out of the IT dimension to hit Vegeta.

You need to illustrate to me an actual feat of an IT user hitting a person outside of the IT dimension from inside of it.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The portion referenced (7:20 min). Cooler entered IT and was gonna attack Vegeta while inside it.

Like I said in the post I made after yours, this is very lacking evidence. We don't see Cooler hit Vegeta from inside of the IT dimension. We see him getting ready to attack him. Meaning, given every other example of attacking from IT, Cooler was going to teleport out as he actually attacks.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Like I said in the post I made after yours, this is very lacking evidence. We don't see Cooler hit Vegeta from inside of the IT dimension. We see him getting ready to attack him. Meaning, given every other example of attacking from IT, Cooler was going to teleport out as he actually attacks.

Well, while you may be unconvinced, this is currently accepted in the profile.

Edit: Cooler himself has it noted in the speed section too

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Well, while you may be unconvinced, this is currently accepted in the profile.

Then close the thread. That makes this a stomp. Because Goku can apparently just spam 10x Kamehamehas from his IT dimension and Black can't do anything to stop it. I don't know how virtually every single character in Toei is even a remote threat to Goku when he can do this but it is what it is.

 

[RedReaper616]

Which one? Cooler? That's via using the same technique against him. I assume you mean someone else then.

Yeah, someone from World’s Strongest.

Certainly, I just don't think that's as good as fighting a singular opponent many times faster and stronger than himself with pure skill.

Mmmm. Not sure.

It does because Goku is still being forced to depend upon that ability to fight Black while Black doesn't have to do the same.

This doesn’t actually mean anything though. Goku still can perfectly sense Black through a different means.

And consider the context of how this was learned with Popo. This is before Goku even started using Ki Sense AFAIK so why would Goku learn a vastly superior version of sensing others then just use Ki Sense anyways?

This implies their Ki Sensory are just built the same, when they aren’t. Toei’s version has a lot more stuff jammed into it. For example, in Toei you can have your energy grasp your opponent’s to continuously track them. Popo does this to Goku, and Goku should have that skill now.

That would suggest to me that this alternative form of sensing energy is considered inferior to the broader Ki Sensing ability. Which would suggest Black would have a superior sensory ability here.

Only if Black had access to that, which he doesn’t. Their Ki Sensory are not the same.

Similar isn't quite enough here.

Fair.

 

[TiltedFN]

Metal Cooler fight around the 2:20 min mark and onwards

Cooler was winding up an attack for when he reappeared, he can't actually attack from the dimension while not present in the mortal realm, that is not what's shown.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Cooler was winding up an attack for when he reappeared, he can't actually attack from the dimension while not present in the mortal realm, that is not what's shown.

Downgrade it

I will close this now