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The SCP CRT: Two and a Half Years in the Making

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Hm. Given that the Noosphere's a realm of all thought and information, wouldn't destroying a 2-A amount of shit affect it indirectly by default? Think how you could create a disturbance in the Warp by doing something ridiculous, but that doesn't make you 1-A.
I'm not quite sure how to explain it, but no, the noosphere doesn't quite work the same way as the warp in that sense. The noosphere does change to reflect humanity but it is both a lot more specific and a lot more abstract about it if that makes any sense (Think computer science and psychology over religion/theology, emotion, and sorcery). Noospheric entities are anthropomorphized data structures and walking sets of ideas composed of raw 1s and 0s, where as the warp entities are embodiments of belief and faith. Gods of the noosphere are the equivalent of entire malignant cultures on 5 legs, where as Chaos Gods are the corrupted background radiation of all life in existence and other warp gods are pantheons produced by the Faith and belief systems of whole civilizations. I realize this sounds like I'm rambling, but I'm getting somewhere with this. I'm trying to get this point across without writing an 18 paragraph bible.

As weird as this sounds, wiping out humanity won't really wipe out the noosphere, at least not in the way you would think it does. It will obviously effect it, a really major and likely negative one, but not in the same way that wiping out all intelligent life in 40k would effect the Warp. When no one believes in or has the feelings associated with a given warp entity, they fade away and die, but even when you do the equivalent of that to most of the informational entities (eliminate all their anchors) they won't go down, and those that do simply lose their structural integrity and fall apart. The existence of both Dead Memes and Free Memes also proves implicitly that simply wiping out all of humanity would destroy the noosphere. We do not get many views of the noosphere after humanity has been wiped out, due to usually being unrelated to the means by which humanity was wiped out this Tuesday, so we will unfortunately have to focus on the time(s) noospheric entities committed genocide against humanity. Even when 3125 had wiped out all of humanity (just to be clear, it didn't "kill" them, it turned them into bags of flesh incompatible with any ideas not related to 3125, essentially all human thought) the ideas still existed enough for the star fish to gorge itself on them. The noosphere still existed even if it was of course very different once 3125 had taken it over, and despite the state of existence being apocalyptic. Let's contrast with the Scarlet King, who in his battle turned the thing inside out and was basically destroyed. The event described in the original article makes it sound as if quick-space (quick-space is to informational/head space as realspace is to the warp) even collapsed in with the noosphere, which is not what usually happens when all of humanity is wiped out lol. Whatever happened there is clearly a different phenomenon then whatever usually happens when all of humanity is wiped out.

I would also like to point out that its not like the entire noosphere is wiped clean and reset every time humanity gets wiped out, unless SCP-2000 goes ahead and rebuilds the entire noosphere. I could break down the evidence from the identity warfare primer on why that is literally impossible if you would like and also hard proof of at least 1 activation of SCP-2000 following a different fifthist genocide in the timeline of the extended canon that includes the antimemetics division, but I would like to keep this as short as I reasonably can.
 
@Iapitus While your point that destroying all of humanity wouldn't destroy the noosphere is true, I think the important part is that wiping out humanity would affect the noosphere. It wasn't destroyed in that SK fight after all, it was simply "turned in on itself", whatever that means. Which seems like it's possible if a bunch of it loses its structural integrity and falls apart. I'm not sure if I agree with saying it was "basically destroyed" by SK.
 
@TOAA Yes...
 
@Iapitus While your point that destroying all of humanity wouldn't destroy the noosphere is true, I think the important part is that wiping out humanity would affect the noosphere. It wasn't destroyed in that SK fight after all, it was simply "turned in on itself", whatever that means. Which seems like it's possible if a bunch of it loses its structural integrity and falls apart. I'm not sure if I agree with saying it was "basically destroyed" by SK.
Wiping out humanity would of course effect the noosphere, but if the constant stream of alternate realities being wiped out by either the Sarkic cosmology simply existing or any other of the number of SCP that can and often do bust universes don't effect whatever part of the noosphere is directly involved with that given timeline, I don't think busting a bunch of universes would be enough to "turn it in on itself." Keep in mind, the noosphere is a very chaotic realm, so just causing massive waves wouldn't be enough for that to be anything of note. And busting universes aside, we already have examples of all of humanity being wiped out without it "turning in on itself" or losing its structural integrity and collapsing. The noosphere isn't the same kind of structure as most of the informational entities. The closest thing to a through line or anchor to stabilize it directly is what the O5 found that was the catalyst to the events of SCP-5000, as that is likely literally the idea of humanity itself, but that is mostly speculation and if 3125 making all of humanity into those things didn't destroy the noosphere then I don't think wiping out humanity and converting the rest would have worked anyway.
 
Aren't most of those "humanity being wiped out" events localized to a single timeline, or ones where we don't see/know the noospheric implications?

On that topic, is the noosphere a thing that exists across all timelines for the multiverse, or is it localized to a single timeline?
 
"On that topic, is the noosphere a thing that exists across all timelines for the multiverse, or is it localized to a single timeline?"

The Noosphere's place in the cosmology is one of the biggest issues with dealing with it, as we don't know much. I think it's fair to assume one for the multiverse exists since stories that involve multiple universes tend to talk about THE Noosphere, not many noospheres.
 
True, but 3125 also seems to go against it, with the Five Five Five Five Five series taking place entirely with one universe, while also describing 3125 entering the human noosphere and acting as a black hole within it.

And, if we go back to Hl3's idea of 5800 being a part of the noosphere that's sealed off, the entrance to it seems to be described as existing in one universe...

Blech.
 
I mean. I'd say it's just because the story focuses on one universe. It doesn't contradict it per say.

Regarding the SK issue, I'd lean more on SK scaling to it, since the quote is worded in a way that makes it seem like a direct consequence of their reality warping nonsense than an indirect consequence of them killing all humans (which doesn't seem necessarily implied in the quote?).
 
But that being one of two times the god tiers really seem to have anything to do with the Noosphere makes me want to apply more scrutiny.

The only other example I know of being Akhelios/Thoth, who sit atop the tree of life consuming lesser gods, one of which mindhaxed humanity with birdstuff.
 
SK does have some weird scaling to 3125 but idk what happened to that.

I wouldn't say that applying more scrutiny means that we should take the low-end interpretation. Again we don't know where the Noosphere stands compared to the Tree and other gods, so we have no reason to assume it's necessarily above or below SK & Co and we should determine that based on what little interactions we have.
 
Bird Hub gods will scale differently since they canonically exist in a separate multiverse.
 
3125 was one of the seals on SK and SK broke that seal, iirc.
 
Yeah but that had a bunch of problems so idk how applicable it is.

This scaling is admittedly a bit out of my league so I'll let the big lore boys talk it out. I still stand that possibly Low 1-C should be applied here, as doing otherwise would imply that we're quite sure that the Scarlet King only indirectly affected the Noosphere, which we aren't. It's a very real possibility that should be at least mentioned on the profiles I feel.
 
Aren't most of those "humanity being wiped out" events localized to a single timeline, or ones where we don't see/know the noospheric implications?

On that topic, is the noosphere a thing that exists across all timelines for the multiverse, or is it localized to a single timeline?
Some of them are, others aren't. I brought up the Sarkic one because that cosmology like focuses on how universes die all the time and really don't matter, and Ion even says he has seen the deaths of infinite universes just in the time since his trials with the archons. As the the latter half of the question, Yes but that is partly the point, as we know we have had the same noosphere since at least the first antimemetics war, and we still have the same fundamental underlying principles of humanity as well. If the constant destruction of alternate universes didn't make any noteworthy changes to the noosphere or approach turning in on itself, then my original point stands.

Pretty sure there is only 1 noosphere, since the exchange of information is not even close to limited to one universe in SCP, but each universe would have its own "local" part of it, so even grand scale memetic changes in your universe may not effect the other universes as well. To use the warp comparison again, its like how there is one Warp but "The Warp" is also a localized force in each version, thus even grand scale changes in 40k won't have any effect on Age of Sigmar.
 
Some of them are, others aren't. I brought up the Sarkic one because that cosmology like focuses on how universes die all the time and really don't matter, and Ion even says he has seen the deaths of infinite universes just in the time since his trials with the archons.

Couldn't there have been some universes around through all of that?

If the constant destruction of alternate universes didn't make any noteworthy changes to the noosphere or approach turning in on itself, then my original point stands.

I don't think it does, isn't this SK feat we're discussing different because it affected all of creation?

Also, even then, after this SK situation, I don't think the noosphere had different fundamental underlying principles of humanity or something. It just says that it was "turned in on itself". If you say that there has never been long-term damage to the noosphere, that should also apply to this feat, right?
 
Couldn't there have been some universes around through all of that?


I don't think it does, isn't this SK feat we're discussing different because it affected all of creation?

Also, even then, after this SK situation, I don't think the noosphere had different fundamental underlying principles of humanity or something. It just says that it was "turned in on itself". If you say that there has never been long-term damage to the noosphere, that should also apply to this feat, right?
Yeah but that wasn't really my point anyway. This isn't about destroying the noosphere, its about effecting it as a whole, and since Infinite Universes = 5 sets of Infinite Universes = Infinite sets of Infinite Universes = 77777 sets of Infinite Universes under wiki policy (I don't agree that this is how it should be that this ain't the place the change it), it does not matter.

Honestly, I did not take him destroying the noosphere as the same feat as him effecting all creation, or at least not inherently.

If SK didn't even manage to damage humanity's fundamental underlying aspects, then 3125 technically would have done more fundamental damage to the noosphere during its reign, but even that did not qualify as "turning in on itself" or, to draw on the rest of the context, seemingly mixed thrown into churning chaos as "memetic mash potatoes". I said that there had never been long term damage to the noosphere since at least the first antimemetic war and until the events of CASE HATE RED, when 3125 incarnates in 2016. SK's destruction of the noosphere takes place long after that.
 
Yeah but that wasn't really my point anyway. This isn't about destroying the noosphere, its about effecting it as a whole, and since Infinite Universes = 5 sets of Infinite Universes = Infinite sets of Infinite Universes = 77777 sets of Infinite Universes under wiki policy (I don't agree that this is how it should be that this ain't the place the change it), it does not matter.

I do not understand your point there. I'm trying to say that destroying all universes causes an issue, your response was that someone had seen infinite universes destroyed over time, and so I responded that there could (and likely were) still some universes around during that time. This stuff about infinity = 5 infinities is irrelevant to that, since we're talking about the raw number left over.

If SK didn't even manage to damage humanity's fundamental underlying aspects, then 3125 technically would have done more fundamental damage to the noosphere during its reign, but even that did not qualify as "turning in on itself" or, to draw on the rest of the context, seemingly mixed thrown into churning chaos as "memetic mash potatoes".

Oh come the **** on. Not using the same words, especially when the words you're talking about are "turning in on itself", does not mean that SK affected it more than 3125 did.

I said that there had never been long term damage to the noosphere since at least the first antimemetic war and until the events of CASE HATE RED, when 3125 incarnates in 2016. SK's destruction of the noosphere takes place long after that.


Oh okay, I don't know the timeline for when SK affecting the noosphere happened.
 
At this point, SK and TBD affecting the Noosphere could be taken one of two ways. They either killed a bunch of people and messed up the Noosphere as a side effect, or they directly messed with the Noosphere as a construct.

In this situation where one or the other could be correct, is it not apt to assume "possibly Low 1-C"?
 
Sure I guess.

There is still the other point of contention I have; with putting noospheric creatures at Low 1-C.
 
How exactly could that be taken multiple different ways? Killing a ton of people would alter it significantly, yeah, but it wouldn't completely mess with it's structure and introduce humans to ideas that literally don't exist within their headspace, like 3125.
 
Running with this debate would only lead to a semantics change between "possibly" and "likely". I'm surely not about to die on this hill.

Noospheric creatures I'm fine with leaving at Unknown, for anyone weaker than 3125 itself. However, it should be noted that the description of the creatures by the Foundation researcher clearly states that the creatures themselves trump each other in size by magnitudes of infinite.

"These things have a hierarchy of sorts which is dictated by the size of these beings.

I use the term "size" loosely because th- [coughs] there ah… these things are presented in sets of infinities; like how many integers or natural numbers there are in- in mathematics. The sheer size of these- these beings are defined as uncountable infinities. Despite logic telling us that there can't be anything larger in scale than… well… infinity."
 
Yeah but that wasn't really my point anyway. This isn't about destroying the noosphere, its about effecting it as a whole, and since Infinite Universes = 5 sets of Infinite Universes = Infinite sets of Infinite Universes = 77777 sets of Infinite Universes under wiki policy (I don't agree that this is how it should be that this ain't the place the change it), it does not matter.

I do not understand your point there. I'm trying to say that destroying all universes causes an issue, your response was that someone had seen infinite universes destroyed over time, and so I responded that there could (and likely were) still some universes around during that time. This stuff about infinity = 5 infinities is irrelevant to that, since we're talking about the raw number left over.

If SK didn't even manage to damage humanity's fundamental underlying aspects, then 3125 technically would have done more fundamental damage to the noosphere during its reign, but even that did not qualify as "turning in on itself" or, to draw on the rest of the context, seemingly mixed thrown into churning chaos as "memetic mash potatoes".

Oh come the **** on. Not using the same words, especially when the words you're talking about are "turning in on itself", does not mean that SK affected it more than 3125 did.

I said that there had never been long term damage to the noosphere since at least the first antimemetic war and until the events of CASE HATE RED, when 3125 incarnates in 2016. SK's destruction of the noosphere takes place long after that.

Oh okay, I don't know the timeline for when SK affecting the noosphere happened.
Honestly, its a little beside the point what I was arguing since I just realized that the K-class Cross-Pollination scenario that Tufto's proposal talks about in combination with the quote about the different parts of reality being mixed into one, resulting in the destruction of all life, is what causes the destruction of the noosphere. Basically, SK rekt the noosphere in the same way he rekt the rest of reality. If he caused the noosphere to collapse in with quick-space, as the quote says, that's definitely still tier 1.

turning in on itself implies almost complete collapse. Say what you will about what 3125 did, but it was not as stark as that. Also, the context of SK invoking a very different phenomenon means I think the point I was originally making with this as rather moot.

You good
 
After discussing it with Iapitus in discord.

A continuous back and forth isn't needed since we're both fine with "2-A, possibly Low 1-C" for relevant characters anyway.

EDIT: It was only two hours :3
 
Hey so just to update everyone, Agnaa and I argued for like 4 hours in the SCP discord server and have mutually agreed on the possibly Low 1-C option
 
If there are no further objections to this, can it be applied?

If people still take issue with 5800's creature tiering, rest assured, we only have one such profile on the wiki, and it already has its own tier. 3125's "infinitely stronger than 5D, but infinitely weaker than 6D" still falls within the bounds of Low 1-C. And I think its profile should reflect as such.

I have also updated the OP to more accurately reflect the change.
 
Literally read the title of this CRT and do the math.
 
the placement of 5800 in the cosmology doesn't even matter, it's just a case of us making sure everything fits together

so just OCD
 
I did. This just doesn't adress alot of the points made back in the 2018 one, such as Plato's Theory of Forms being canon.
 
That wouldn't change anything unless said Theory of Forms is explained in-universe as the exact same one Plato made IRL
 
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Let us not forget that Wondertainment is a chronic liar and half of what they say is purely word salad for the sake of whimsy.
 
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