The Power of Chi: Kung Fu Panda

[JJSliderman]

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[GyroNutz]

here for support cause this is sad to watch..


this thread needs u

my bad I'm back

 

[GyroNutz]

Ok, so to clarify, I'm going to sum up my interpretation of the points made in the original thread and this one, and you can let me know if I missed anything.

3-A: Jindiao absorbs the wellspring which is the source of all chi in the universe, which should therefore contain the energy of the eternal chord, a source of chi responsible for the creation of the universe. This is backed up by other statements claiming that the Wellspring is an endless font of power, and that it is the greatest source of energy in the world. Jindiao also broke a hole between the spirit and mortal realms, which requires a power 'greater than that of the spirit realm'. Po in the spirit realm fought on par with Jindiao so he scales.

My Stance: I agree with the eternal chord scaling since we discussed this much before my hiatus. Not sure about the Jindiao statement but its ok as support I guess.

Low 2-C: On top of creating the physical universe, time in the Kung Fu Panda verse was created by the Shuyong Tree, which is concious. There are statements about all living beings possessing chi, including plants, so if the Shuyong Tree is conventionally alive then it, too, is powered by chi which comes from the Wellspring.

My Stance: Less convinced. The only thing linking the Shuyong Tree to chi are tertiary statements, which then have to be linked to the wellspring. The shuyong tree may not conventionally be alive, or of this world since it also existed before the universe was a thing. There's nothing explicitly linking the Shuyong Tree's power to chi, unlike the Eternal Chord which is stated to be chi, light and good which the wellspring is stated to encompass.

MFTL+: The energy from the eternal chord crossed the span of the universe in a matter of seconds (shown twice), and since speed is comparable to chi power, Po and Jindiao should scale to this level of speed. Po also tracked down Jindiao in the infinitely large Spirit Realm.

My Stance: Partially agree. If the eternal chord is MFTL+ then there's no reason why chi attacks from a more powerful source shouldn't be. However I think this only applies to combat speed. Chi beams fired by Po and Jindiao are explicitly faster than they travel, as they appear almost instantaneous relative to Po and Jindiao flying. Chi can also be used as a light source by low level characters, but it wouldn't be scaled to their travel speed. I'd suggest an 'Unknown' flight speed ranking with MFTL+ combat, since we don't know how far Po travelled to find Jindiao, and their speed should be far above any other character (although even this is inconsistent with Jindiao being caught by wellspring amplified Po's wuxi finger hold)

Abilities: The wellspring created sound, time, is the source of other chi which can be used to generate fire, levitate and affect momentum (telekinesis?), and finally bring everything to nothingness because of the anti-chord. Po survived attacks from Jindiao's chi so he should gain resistances to these.

My Stance: I agree that Jindiao has the potential to use sound and fire energy, he has telekinesis and levitation anyway though. Less sure about void manipulation, can it surely be said that the anti-chord is a form of chi energy? If you take the yin and yang interpretation as both being chi then I could see that, but it seems like the antithesis of chi (good, life energy). I'm not familiar with how we treat conceptual manipulation currently but this seems more like a creation feat. The eternal chord created the universe and everything in it but there's no mention of sound and time being created on this fundamental level. Also, Po wouldn't necessarily resist these abilities; just because Jindiao can use these with chi doesnt mean that every chi blast he uses can destroy things on a conceptual level.

 

[JJSliderman]

Ok, so to clarify, I'm going to sum up my interpretation of the points made in the original thread and this one, and you can let me know if I missed anything.

3-A: Jindiao absorbs the wellspring which is the source of all chi in the universe, which should therefore contain the energy of the eternal chord, a source of chi responsible for the creation of the universe. This is backed up by other statements claiming that the Wellspring is an endless font of power, and that it is the greatest source of energy in the world. Jindiao also broke a hole between the spirit and mortal realms, which requires a power 'greater than that of the spirit realm'. Po in the spirit realm fought on par with Jindiao so he scales.

My Stance: I agree with the eternal chord scaling since we discussed this much before my hiatus. Not sure about the Jindiao statement but its ok as support I guess.

Alright, sounds good.

Low 2-C: On top of creating the physical universe, time in the Kung Fu Panda verse was created by the Shuyong Tree, which is concious. There are statements about all living beings possessing chi, including plants, so if the Shuyong Tree is conventionally alive then it, too, is powered by chi which comes from the Wellspring.

My Stance: Less convinced. The only thing linking the Shuyong Tree to chi are tertiary statements, which then have to be linked to the wellspring. The shuyong tree may not conventionally be alive, or of this world since it also existed before the universe was a thing. There's nothing explicitly linking the Shuyong Tree's power to chi, unlike the Eternal Chord which is stated to be chi, light and good which the wellspring is stated to encompass.

The problem is that the Shuyong Tree exists within conventional space, whereas the universe prior to the Eternal Chord was a formless void of darkness. We have no real statements that the tree existed before conventional space, only that it existed before time. And the Wellspring is the only one of the two that definitely existed before the universe spawned, via Jindiao stating as such. So there’s generally more evidence backing the Wellspring creating the Shuyong than the two being unrelated. But, I can settle for a possibly Low 2-C if needed.

MFTL+: The energy from the eternal chord crossed the span of the universe in a matter of seconds (shown twice), and since speed is comparable to chi power, Po and Jindiao should scale to this level of speed. Po also tracked down Jindiao in the infinitely large Spirit Realm.

My Stance: Partially agree. If the eternal chord is MFTL+ then there's no reason why chi attacks from a more powerful source shouldn't be. However I think this only applies to combat speed. Chi beams fired by Po and Jindiao are explicitly faster than they travel, as they appear almost instantaneous relative to Po and Jindiao flying. Chi can also be used as a light source by low level characters, but it wouldn't be scaled to their travel speed. I'd suggest an 'Unknown' flight speed ranking with MFTL+ combat, since we don't know how far Po travelled to find Jindiao, and their speed should be far above any other character (although even this is inconsistent with Jindiao being caught by wellspring amplified Po's wuxi finger hold)

Unknown flight and MFTL+ combat and reactions sounds fine.

Abilities: The wellspring created sound, time, is the source of other chi which can be used to generate fire, levitate and affect momentum (telekinesis?), and finally bring everything to nothingness because of the anti-chord. Po survived attacks from Jindiao's chi so he should gain resistances to these.

My Stance: I agree that Jindiao has the potential to use sound and fire energy, he has telekinesis and levitation anyway though. Less sure about void manipulation, can it surely be said that the anti-chord is a form of chi energy? If you take the yin and yang interpretation as both being chi then I could see that, but it seems like the antithesis of chi (good, life energy). I'm not familiar with how we treat conceptual manipulation currently but this seems more like a creation feat. The eternal chord created the universe and everything in it but there's no mention of sound and time being created on this fundamental level. Also, Po wouldn't necessarily resist these abilities; just because Jindiao can use these with chi doesnt mean that every chi blast he uses can destroy things on a conceptual level.

The Anti-Chord is formed in the exact same way as the Eternal Chord (creating 5 elemental tones which are fueled by chi), the difference is the Anti-Chord inverts the sound to create an opposite Eternal Chord. So, they should be both chi-fueled.

I talked to some people at the start of the thread and they mentioned that allowing the ideas of sound and time to exist within a single universe would qualify as a type 2 concept manipulation, which is what happened (sound and time cannot be brought into existence without chi since chi is their life-force). If it doesn’t qualify then, I can remove it.

My proposal was giving Wellspring chi all of these abilities inherently, since chi is what gives all living beings their power and life-force, and elements like sound and time are baked into the physiology of entities like the Shuyong Tree and the Wu-Di instruments. Jindiao’s chi EoS is specifically Wellspring chi, and this is the kind of chi Jindiao hits Po with. But; if giving resistances is problematic I’m fine with excluding them (or making them possibly for resistance)

 

[GyroNutz]

The problem is that the Shuyong Tree exists within conventional space, whereas the universe prior to the Eternal Chord was a formless void of darkness. We have no real statements that the tree existed before conventional space, only that it existed before time. And the Wellspring is the only one of the two that definitely existed before the universe spawned, via Jindiao stating as such. So there’s generally more evidence backing the Wellspring creating the Shuyong than the two being unrelated. But, I can settle for a possibly Low 2-C if needed.

Hmm, it is true that the Shuyong tree didn't necessarily exist before the eternal chord. It still seems quite a long-winded link between the two, especially for what is quite the extraordinary claim (that being Low 2-C Po and Jindiao). I'm undecided on this point atm.

The Anti-Chord is formed in the exact same way as the Eternal Chord (creating 5 elemental tones which are fueled by chi), the difference is the Anti-Chord inverts the sound to create an opposite Eternal Chord. So, they should be both chi-fueled.

Rewatched S3E16 and yeah it's distorted chi, void manipulation is fair enough

My proposal was giving Wellspring chi all of these abilities inherently, since chi is what gives all living beings their power and life-force, and elements like sound and time are baked into the physiology of entities like the Shuyong Tree and the Wu-Di instruments. Jindiao’s chi EoS is specifically Wellspring chi, and this is the kind of chi Jindiao hits Po with. But; if giving resistances is problematic I’m fine with excluding them (or making them possibly for resistance)

I disagree that every blast of chi has these properties though. Chi is more like a source of power from which the user can use several different abilities - one of the most fundamental properties of chi in the verse is its ability to heal and amplify others but Jindiao's blasts of chi didn't do that. I agree that the chi gives him those capabilities though.

I talked to some people at the start of the thread and they mentioned that allowing the ideas of sound and time to exist within a single universe would qualify as a type 2 concept manipulation, which is what happened (sound and time cannot be brought into existence without chi since chi is their life-force). If it doesn’t qualify then, I can remove it.

I don't think that chi embodies sound. Objects that are incapable of generating chi (e.g. jombies/inanimate objects) can still generate sound. If instances of sound can exist independently of chi, then the concept of sound wouldn't rely on chi. I think. Not sure about the Shuyong Tree, since I think the seeds are stated to be fractions of time itself I think, but again I'm not too sure. Also wouldn't these be type 3 anyway?

 

[JJSliderman]

I disagree that every blast of chi has these properties though. Chi is more like a source of power from which the user can use several different abilities - one of the most fundamental properties of chi in the verse is its ability to heal and amplify others but Jindiao's blasts of chi didn't do that. I agree that the chi gives him those capabilities though.

I guess that's true, although Jindiao probably wouldn't try to heal his opponents anyway. Alright, I can agree with dropping resistances.

I don't think that chi embodies sound. Objects that are incapable of generating chi (e.g. jombies/inanimate objects) can still generate sound. If instances of sound can exist independently of chi, then the concept of sound wouldn't rely on chi. I think. Not sure about the Shuyong Tree, since I think the seeds are stated to be fractions of time itself I think, but again I'm not too sure. Also wouldn't these be type 3 anyway?

The seeds are pieces of time, but the fruit allows you to control time itself, letting you time travel, rewind time, etc. And all these are spawned directly from the Shuyong, which existed before time and will continue to exist after time ends. With that in mind the logical follow-through is that the tree created time for the universe.

As for the jombies, they are the actual chi of the kung fu masters manifested as jade soldiers according to the artists behind KFP3, so they are chi in its purest form. So it doesn't exactly contradict what LoA established.

I wasn't really focused on what type of concept manipulation it was when I started, although considering that the scope of what chi can create can extend to an entire universe, I thought 2 was more appropriate.

Hmm, it is true that the Shuyong tree didn't necessarily exist before the eternal chord. It still seems quite a long-winded link between the two, especially for what is quite the extraordinary claim (that being Low 2-C Po and Jindiao). I'm undecided on this point atm.

Well I suppose, although that was why I added the Jindiao statement as support, since that's a high 3-A feat (due to Jindiao overpowering the infinite 3-D energy contained in the spirit realm to break out of it).

 

[GyroNutz]

I guess that's true, although Jindiao probably wouldn't try to heal his opponents anyway.

Yeah I mean that's the point, if wellspring chi had all of its capabilities at once then it should also include healing.

The seeds are pieces of time, but the fruit allows you to control time itself, letting you time travel, rewind time, etc. And all these are spawned directly from the Shuyong, which existed before time and will continue to exist after time ends. With that in mind the logical follow-through is that the tree created time for the universe.

Creating time and having mastery over time isn't necessarily a feat of conceptual manipulation.

As for the jombies, they are the actual chi of the kung fu masters manifested as jade soldiers according to the artists behind KFP3, so they are chi in its purest form. So it doesn't exactly contradict what LoA established.

They're made from chi, but the chi inside of them is immobilised. They're non-living (hence the jombies moniker). I'm not saying it contradicts LoA, I'm just saying that chi can be expressed as sound rather than the concept of sound coming from chi.

Well I suppose, although that was why I added the Jindiao statement as support, since that's a high 3-A feat (due to Jindiao overpowering the infinite 3-D energy contained in the spirit realm to break out of it).

What I mean is, Low 2-C is above the preconceived scale of Po's power and is a huge jump numbers wise above 3-A and even High 3-A. The Jindiao feat has fallen under a lot of scrutiny before to be fair as well. This isn't an argument against Low 2-C persay, I'm just emphasizing why the link between the Wellspring and the Shuyong Tree would have to be airtight.

 

[JJSliderman]

Creating time and having mastery over time isn't necessarily a feat of conceptual manipulation.

Isn’t allowing for time to start flowing after it hadn’t existed at any point prior an example of adding a concept to a small part of reality?

They're made from chi, but the chi inside of them is immobilised. They're non-living (hence the jombies moniker). I'm not saying it contradicts LoA, I'm just saying that chi can be expressed as sound rather than the concept of sound coming from chi.

Legends of Awesomeness shows that being living is not a requirement to have chi, sound is also a nonliving entity.

What I mean is, Low 2-C is above the preconceived scale of Po's power and is a huge jump numbers wise above 3-A and even High 3-A. The Jindiao feat has fallen under a lot of scrutiny before to be fair as well. This isn't an argument against Low 2-C persay, I'm just emphasizing why the link between the Wellspring and the Shuyong Tree would have to be airtight.

The Jindiao feat fell under scrutiny because it was interpreted as space manip or some kind of hax and not “literally” overpowering the energy of a universe. But now the Wellspring upscaling the Eternal Chord results in exactly that, so it should be re-looked at as a power feat.

Moreover, the tree should fall under the camp of being a chi-fueled entity due to its decisively living status, and how the tree doesn’t do anything to indicate its not fueled by chi (which it would need to do, given that chi being inside all living beings dictates the tree would be chi-fueled by default). Since the tree is reached by Po traveling back in time within his universe, the tree exists within the confines of the universe, and thus is subject to the Eternal Chord’s range.

 

[GyroNutz]

Isn’t allowing for time to start flowing after it hadn’t existed at any point prior an example of adding a concept to a small part of reality?

Most timeline creation feats do that, 'before the beginning of time' is too vague to say that the concept of time didn't exist by that point, and the dialogue would imply otherwise.

Legends of Awesomeness shows that being living is not a requirement to have chi, sound is also a nonliving entity.

Well chi can be expressed as sound (or vice versa?), living beings possess chi. Also the key point is that the statements about chi would imply that the Shuyong Tree has chi because it is a living being - even if some nonliving entities possessed chi, that statement wouldnt apply to all nonliving entities.

The Jindiao feat fell under scrutiny because it was interpreted as space manip or some kind of hax and not “literally” overpowering the energy of a universe. But now the Wellspring upscaling the Eternal Chord results in exactly that, so it should be re-looked at as a power feat.

Different contexts though, the Wellspring contains the energy of something which can create/destroy a universe, Jindiao escaped the spirit realm with the link to energy being the constellation's statement of "The spirit realm is a place of great power, it would take an even greater power to escape", paraphrasing.

Moreover, the tree should fall under the camp of being a chi-fueled entity due to its decisively living status, and how the tree doesn’t do anything to indicate its not fueled by chi (which it would need to do, given that chi being inside all living beings dictates the tree would be chi-fueled by default). Since the tree is reached by Po traveling back in time within his universe, the tree exists within the confines of the universe, and thus is subject to the Eternal Chord’s range.

It speaks and it looks like a tree, sure, but on the other hand it literally grows time. It's far from a conventional life form. Also, there's been no connection between time and chi in any other part of the KFP verse. I'm not refuting it outright, but it's far from concrete as well.

 

[JJSliderman]

Most timeline creation feats do that, 'before the beginning of time' is too vague to say that the concept of time didn't exist by that point, and the dialogue would imply otherwise.

Mmm, then idk what to do with concept stuff.

Well chi can be expressed as sound (or vice versa?), living beings possess chi. Also the key point is that the statements about chi would imply that the Shuyong Tree has chi because it is a living being - even if some nonliving entities possessed chi, that statement wouldnt apply to all nonliving entities.

The way sound is described is that sound itself has chi energy. And Enter the Dragon shows that when something is completely drained of its chi energy, it dies off and ceases to be. So, sound itself cannot exist without chi.

Different contexts though, the Wellspring contains the energy of something which can create/destroy a universe, Jindiao escaped the spirit realm with the link to energy being the constellation's statement of "The spirit realm is a place of great power, it would take an even greater power to escape", paraphrasing.

They also confirm that no one has ever escaped the way Jindiao had prior, but with the “power” that Jindiao now wielded by absorbing the Wellspring, it could be done. As another link to energy, since absorbing the Wellspring acted as a stat boost for Jindiao primarily.

It speaks and it looks like a tree, sure, but on the other hand it literally grows time. It's far from a conventional life form. Also, there's been no connection between time and chi in any other part of the KFP verse. I'm not refuting it outright, but it's far from concrete as well.

I think there would need to be concrete proof the tree is different enough from every other living being to say that it lacks chi, considering chi existed before space and time in the context of the series’ universe.

 

[GyroNutz]

The way sound is described is that sound itself has chi energy. And Enter the Dragon shows that when something is completely drained of its chi energy, it dies off and ceases to be. So, sound itself cannot exist without chi.

"Master Lu has learnt to harness the chi energy of sound"

This is what you're referring to? Sounds like the sound can be expressed as chi rather than it having a flow of chi itself.

They also confirm that no one has ever escaped the way Jindiao had prior, but with the “power” that Jindiao now wielded by absorbing the Wellspring, it could be done. As another link to energy, since absorbing the Wellspring acted as a stat boost for Jindiao primarily.

The Wellspring was an amp for Jindiao but it also gave him access to a wealth of abilities. And "power" is just as synonymous with strength as it is abilities. The main counter previously was that having a greater power than the spirit realm =/= being capable of destroying it in one hit.

I think there would need to be concrete proof the tree is different enough from every other living being to say that it lacks chi, considering chi existed before space and time in the context of the series’ universe.

Well, that's a stretch. No one has to prove that the tree doesnt have chi, only that it's different enough to where broad statements may not apply to it, with the point of contention being that no statements explicitly link the tree to chi or anything related to it.

 

[JJSliderman]

"Master Lu has learnt to harness the chi energy of sound"

This is what you're referring to? Sounds like the sound can be expressed as chi rather than it having a flow of chi itself.

If that was the case, I feel like Shifu would have worded it different (like harnessing sound in the form of chi energy, or converting sound into chi). Instead, he says that Lu is using the chi energy of sound, which would mean he’s using the chi energy contained within sound. So, sound still has chi energy fueling it.

The Wellspring was an amp for Jindiao but it also gave him access to a wealth of abilities. And "power" is just as synonymous with strength as it is abilities. The main counter previously was that having a greater power than the spirit realm =/= being capable of destroying it in one hit.

Having a greater power than the universe would likely mean having a greater energy level than the universe’s mass energy. Via statements, the spirit realm is infinite size, and thus infinite mass, so infinite energy.

Well, that's a stretch. No one has to prove that the tree doesnt have chi, only that it's different enough to where broad statements may not apply to it, with the point of contention being that no statements explicitly link the tree to chi or anything related to it.

And I don’t believe that it is different enough. It’s a living being (which are stated to all contain chi), a plant (which Shifu demonstrated contains chi), and is part of the universe’s space (which was created with chi energy).

 

[JJSliderman]

Bump, I guess if conceptual manip doesn’t work then I can drop it and just do sound/void/time manip.

 

[JJSliderman]

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[ShakeResounding]

Honestly man you should REALLY go to their message walls and get input. This extent to the bumpathon is ridiculous

 

[JJSliderman]

Gyro was here awhile ago and just, left, so yeah I might try asking input again tomorrow.

 

[JJSliderman]

Bump (yeah I said I was going to message walls but I’ve been on vacation, will do it soon)

 

[JJSliderman]

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[RanHover60]

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