The most controversial debate is up here again... Goku vs. Supes.

[Omegas03]

Son Goku (Chou, Black arc) vs. Superman (post Crisis). Both are 4-B.

Son Goku starts in Base but can access up to Super Saiyan 3 if needed, speed is obviously equalized.


Goku: 5 (UchihaSlayer96, DTG499, Dragomer, XSOULOFCINDERX, Spinoirr

Supes: 13 (EmperorRorepme, Oblivion of the Endless, Roachman40, TheQuirkyBoy, Buttersamuri, NormalPerson87, Maverick Zero X, I'm Blue daba dee daba die, Sergeant Hypocrite, The Wright Way, ShadowWarrior1999, The Calaca, Purgy

Everyone is happy: 3 (C2 of Omegon, Lord JJJ, LordUrien935

Let's see where this goes, please don't close the thread instantly unless there's much hostility coming.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Oh god...

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

 

[DMUA]

I don't remember this being unbanned, just DC vs Dragon ball in general

 

[Omegas03]

Could we just see how does this go? I don't think the debate will be hostile like it was before tbh.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

You mad man!! Some really wanna watch the world burn...

But seriously though this could be really fun. Please let it happen

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I think we could probably let this one slide. However let see what the rest of the staff think about it if they wish to comment.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

AP Difference?

 

[Omegas03]

Supes is almost 600 KiloFoe.

Meanwhile Base Goku is at the Low double digit KiloFoe but can cover the gap with transformations that amp his strength dozens of times if not more.

 

[LordTracer]

Oh, this should go fantastically.

 

[JooCipher]

oh boy is this going to be a wild ride

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

What's Supes' go to hax in character?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

This is going to get closed due to Goku vs Superman being banned but I'll entertain it anyways.

Superman's mid-end scaling is about 390 KiloFoe to my knowledge. Chou Goku is scaled as thinking he can defeat SP Cell in just Super Saiyan, seemingly easily. Cell is 1 KiloFoe, so that places Chou SS Goku at 1+ KiloFoe. If we take him using SS against Kid Buu seriously, that means Chou SS Goku = Buu Saga SS3 Goku, in which case the scaling is:

SS3 Goku = Kid Buu = Chou SS Goku >> Majin Vegeta > SS2 Gohan > Weakened SS2 Gohan >/= Super Perfect Cell = 1 KiloFoe

Gohan could hold his own against SP Cell despite having only half his energy remaining, so it seems reasonable to think 100% SS2 Gohan would be around 2 KiloFoe. Majin Vegeta is significantly stronger than that, and SS3 Goku would easily stomp Majin Vegeta. Overall, I'd claim Chou SS Goku could be 4 KiloFoe.

Super Saiyan 2 should be more than 2x Super Saiyan, based on 50% SS2 Gohan struggling against Super Perfect Cell, when Perfect Cell stomped SS1 Gohan. I'm going to high-ball and claim SS2 is 4x SS, putting Chou SS2 Goku at 16 KiloFoe.

After that, calculating gap between SS2 and SS3 is difficult, I will say 2x, which puts Chou SS3 Goku at 32 KiloFoe.

So, overall, Chou SS3 Goku would only be 1/10th the power of Post-Crisis Superman.

Goku only has Hakai in his Super Saiyan Blue key, so he has no method to negate Superman's durability. The only valid option he has to win is potentially Sealing, but that requires some preptime.

Overall, PC Superman should stomp Chou SS3 Goku pretty easily.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It was not a matter of how but when.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

You forgot how much stronger Goku got after the beginning of Chou. Not to mention, his base is probably way more powerful than his initial Ss in Chou. SSJ1 Is bare minimum 40x base, so the gap Will be closed really fast.

 

[Omegas03]

You forgot a lot of the scaling throught Chou. Goku has gotten many many times stronger since the Beginning of the Manga.

SSJ Goku being equal to his Buu arc SSJ3 is just at the Beginning of the Manga.

Base Vegeta at the Black arc is comparable to Base Black (vía stomping his SSJ as SSJ2) who is above SSJ3 Goku from the Beginning of the Black arc who in turn would stomp SSJ3 Goku from BoG who is massively above his Buu Saga SSJ3.

Current Base Goku is stronger than that, let's not talk about SSJ forms.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

You forgot a lot of the scaling.

SSJ Goku being equal to his Buu arc SSJ3 is just at the Beginning of the Manga.

Base Vegeta at the Black arc is comparable to Base Black (vía stomping his SSJ as SSJ2) who is above SSJ3 Goku from the U6 arc.

Current Base Goku is stronger than that, let's not talk about SSJ forms.

Yea Goku black arc scaling is insane lol.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Isn't this banned?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Following on with what Cryo said. Assuming that Goku and Superman are equal in attack potency, Goku will just weaken overtime whilst Superman has the sun. Especially if he uses SS3.

Superman has various hax which Goku doesn't resist as well.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Superman FRA

 

[Elizhaa]

I think we could probably let this one slide. However let see what the rest of the staff think about it if they wish to comment.

To be fair, it is not banned:

Try to avoid controversial matchups, such as Son Goku versus Superman, as they recurrently lead to hostility between different members.
	~ Versus Thread Rules​

However, if there are needless hostilities, then, I think the match should be close swiftly.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm going based on what is provided on the profile, which scales Chou Goku to that level. I use the profiles when debating on the wiki.

If you want to argue based on stats from after that point, then I'll have to dig deeper. Give me a moment to through the manga, and I'll post an analysis.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Following on with what Cryo said. Assuming that Goku and Superman are equal in attack potency, Goku will just weaken overtime whilst Superman has the sun. Especially if he uses SS3.

Superman has various hax which Goku doesn't resist as well.

Goku has since overcome the stamina problems of SSJ3. He uses it without any trouble in the super manga, and even anime occasionally. And considering current base Goku is far above his Buu saga SS3, then after you apply SSJ forms multipliers he'd actually have an AP advantage as Ssj1 is at least 40x.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

But that doesn't take away Superman's unlimited stamina source whilst even if Goku's stamina has improved, he will still weaken overtime. Especially in SS3 which even in Super has been stated to be an inefficient use of energy iirc.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Fair enough @Elizhaa. Since it's technically not banned, this thread can proceed. However try to stay as civil as possible, because if you can't prove that you can remain civil, we might have to resort to close all future threads like this again.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Superman FRA

No offense lol, but I think it's a bit early to board the FRA train.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I'll retract my vote or change later if needed be

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'll retract my vote or change later if needed be

Fair enough I guess.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'll just... keep an eye on this thread?

This should honestly be fine so long as we all know to keep things chill, and I hope we all do by this point.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

And considering current base Goku is far above his Buu saga SS3, then after you apply SSJ forms multipliers he'd actually have an AP advantage as Ssj1 is at least 40x.

I will wait until someone quantifies the difference.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

But that doesn't take away Superman's unlimited stamina source whilst even if Goku's stamina has improved, he will still weaken overtime. Especially in SS3 which even in Super has been stated to be an inefficient use of energy iirc.

I don't remember that being stated, especially not in the manga.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

You forgot a lot of the scaling throught Chou. Goku has gotten many many times stronger since the Beginning of the Manga.

SSJ Goku being equal to his Buu arc SSJ3 is just at the Beginning of the Manga.

Base Vegeta at the Black arc is comparable to Base Black (vía stomping his SSJ as SSJ2) who is above SSJ3 Goku from the Beginning of the Black arc who in turn would stomp SSJ3 Goku from BoG who is massively above his Buu Saga SSJ3.

Current Base Goku is stronger than that, let's not talk about SSJ forms.

@Emperor

This is the current scaling chain.

In case you're wondering where the 40x comes from it's from Kaiokenx20 being below 50% Frieza while SSJ being comfortably above 100% Freeza. SS2 is at least 2x as explained above by @Cryo and SS3 is a good bit above that.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

It was stated in the anime against Caulifla and Kale.

It doesn't matter to be honest. In the Tournament 6 Arc, Goku was repeatedly running out of energy and trying to conserve it, Vegeta, who has comparable stamina also ran out of energy from three fights just because he overused Super Sayain. Superman's is unlimited. Assuming their AP is the same until some quantifies Goku's AP then Goku will run out of stamina fairly quickly.

 

[The_Calaca]

As some people have said, this can proceed.

But as many more people also said, this will be terrible.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

It was stated in the anime against Caulifla and Kale.

It doesn't matter to be honest. In the Tournament 6 Arc, Goku was repeatedly running out of energy and trying to conserve it, Vegeta, who has comparable stamina also ran out of energy from three fights just because he overused Super Sayain. Superman's is unlimited. Assuming their AP is the same until some quantifies Goku's AP then Goku will run out of stamina fairly quickly.

Goku in base should be 32 KiloFoes, then apply the scaling chain I mentioned above and he'll have a comfortable lead in AP.

Also Anime and manga are completely different. Also in the manga they initially had stamina problems in Super Saiyan Blue, this is no longer the case as well but it doesn't matter because Blue isn't used in this battle.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

As some people have said, this can proceed.

But as many more people also said, this will be terrible.

I'm actually feeling quite optimistic about this. I think it'll go well. Fingers crossed though.

 

[Roachman40]

Man Of Steel FRA

 

[Omegas03]

@UchihaSlayer

Yeah, Base Goku should already be double digit KiloFoe but the bare minimum is far above 4 KiloFoe which still puts him over 600 in SSJ3.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Putting AP aside for a moment though. Could someone please tell me Superman's go to hax in character?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Preface: Future Trunks claims Goku and Vegeta can no longer get Zenkais, so I'll assume Goku gains no enhancements after fights.

Chapter 1 - SS Goku = Kid Buu = 4 KiloFoe

Chapter 5 - Goku trained with Whis for one year, power unknown but will claim 2x stronger at least. Meaning SS Goku is at least 8 KiloFoe

Chapter 7 - Goku trained with Vegeta for three years, assume he grew at least 2x stronger. SS Goku is at least 16 KiloFoe

Chapter 12 - Hit easily defeats SSB Vegeta, who should be at 1/10th power.

Chapter 13 - SSG Goku is superior to Hit, meaning the gap between SSG and CSSB is less than 10x. Full Power Hit is inferior to SSB Goku.

Chapter 15 - Enhanced SS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku, who should be at least 128 KiloFoe

Chapter 19 - SS2 Vegeta overpowers SS Black

Chapter 20 - SS Black matches SSB Vegeta, with Black then achieving Rose

Chapter 22 - After training in the Time Chamber, SSB Vegeta can pressure, and even overpower, SSR Black. The gap between Rose and SS is unknown, but we know Blue is <10x God and that God is much stronger than SS3. We'll assume God is 2x SS3, and Blue is 10x that, so Blue is 20x SS3. The gap between SS and SS3 is considered 8x (SS2 being 4x, SS3 being 2x) so Vegeta must have grow 4,160x stronger.

Post-Chamber SSB Vegeta > SSR Black > (4,160x Gap) > SS Black > Pre-Chamber SSB Vegeta = Post-Chamber SS Vegeta > (4.160x Gap) > Pre-Chamber SS Vegeta

This places SS Vegeta at 66,560 KiloFoe, which is around 100x stronger than Superman.

Chapter 24 - It seems CSSB Goku is even stronger than Post-Chamber SSB Vegeta, based on him comparing to Fused Zamasu but due to Vegeta using SSB, and Goku CSSB, I can't claim Black arc SS Goku is over 66,560 KiloFoe.

Chapter 27 - Vegeta learns CSSB, becoming far stronger than with ordinary SSB, but the lack of time gap and Zenkais means I can't claim Vegeta grew much stronger after the Black arc.

Chapter 29 - Toppo and CSSB Goku are about equal.

Chapter 37 - Golden Frieza and CSSB Goku seem about equal, and CSSB Vegeta faces Toppo evenly. This places ToP SS Goku at least at 66,560 KiloFoe

So, as of Chapter 37 ToP SS Goku should be over 100x stronger than Superman.

Unfortunately, Goku makes no notable increases between Trunks and the ToP, and caps out at 128 KiloFoe in SS3 during the Black arc, so it seems he is stomped by Superman pre-Black and stomps Superman post-Black.

tl;dr

Pre-Black SS Goku = 16 KiloFoe

Post-Black SS Goku = at least 66,560 KiloFoe