Before I get into this, let me preface this by saying that I will be on a plane for the next few days. Make your responses with the knowledge I likely won't touch this thread any further.
So alright then. Might as well settle this;
The resistance hinges on the innate properties of their magics not actively harming them, as they can when another wielder specifically uses them. It is not a matter of pure mastery given the very same magic given as a tiny fraction carries those properties. In fact, most of this seems to misunderstand where the reasoning comes from regardless; Thor's body being consumed is
confirmed by developers as well as visuals.
The specific abilities inherent in their magic doesn't affect them. You're conflating this with some odd notion that resistance means complete immunity to the attack potency said magic also carries. Not to mention the mastery argument... comes from nothing. You are welcome to supply scans for that but until then, I'm not making undue assumptions for the hell of it.
...Except that still doesn't work, because we have multiple instances of gods being damaged and staggered by their own magic reflected back at them. The WoG statement was also in response to a very blatant leading question (not very subtle, asking if Thor ascended to a "higher plane"), so I will disregard it. We have rules against this sort of stuff, yknow. It's also like... not very notable, because again, we literally see Thor being
damaged by lightning before this point. He is not immune to it.
The Atlas thing is from here (forgot to link it before, oops), and the context is that Kratos struggles to wield it at first, Atlas tells him to focus, and then he does and can control his magic better.
This is a nothing burger of a section, given no one actually does that.
This is false. You can literally just, read the
Primordials' page and see that they are given abilities unique to each individual. For example,
Neutral to the first scan given it's one of what 5 different supporting scans on the ability page? As for the second part, Kratos given that he wouldn't have any context to discern what magic Freya can and cannot use and wouldn't exactly wager an unknown man's life on it.
First of all, Kratos makes it very clear in his first encounter with Freya that he
doesn't know what kind of magic she can use. Second of all, it is a completely reasonable reaction for him to hear that someone needs old magic to be revived, and then immediately recall a witch he met not long ago. He isn't 100% sure, necessarily, but Freya is the one person he knows of that
could revive Mimir (even if he's not certain). That he gets proven partially correct later on does not change the context of the scene (that being "hey I need old magic" followed by "I know someone who might be able to help". The scene works perfectly fine without any info analysis at play.
Saying Kratos cannot kill legionaries via normal means given they're the basic grunts he tears apart within minutes of booting up a game is ....certainly a choice. Type 1 can go I suppose.
That is not the point I was trying to make. Kratos
can kill them, but only by destroying them beyond what their immortality can save them from. This is why the game necessitates the use of special finishing moves (like freezing and then shattering them) to put them down for good; You literally
can't destroy them by just swinging like a wild animal. This is compounded by the novelization, where Kratos fails to kill two legionnaires, but cripples them so regular soldiers may hack them apart so they can't regenerate. If Kratos had immortality negation, then his arrows in that scene should've done the job by themselves.
Not particularly. He can nullify the effects Castor and Pollux put on themselves and cancel their self-age manipulation. He himself is affected and adapts to it later on. This isn't incongruence, it's a basic misunderstanding of what's on the page.
I like how you didn't even address the bulk of the argument, which is that Kratos isn't even nullifying their powers. They just can't maintain the focus needed to use the amulet properly while Kratos is beating them to a pulp. If I bitchslap a wizard's wand out of his hands or throttle him while he tries to cast magic missile, I'm not "nullifying" his powers.
He specifically doesn't remove their amulet from them until the very end of their battle. And what do you mean, "when it matters most"? At no point do the aging and temporal effects of the amulet actually harm him during the battle.
This isn't even about removing the amulet, what are you talking about? I brought up the "knocking a weapon out of someone's hands" point as a comparison; Castor and Pollux repeatedly
try to use the amulet against Kratos, but Kratos is generally able to interrupt them before they do so. Stopping yourself from getting shot by dodging gunfire, or preventing someone from shooting you in the first place, is not a "resistance" to gunfire, nor is it "adapting" to gunfire. That's what Kratos is doing here. He is merely preventing Castor and Pollux from using the amulet against him. As for the "when it matters most" point, I mean that if Kratos
doesn't interrupt the twins, then their powers work against him just fine and
he dies. The whole point is that Kratos needs to play keep-away and stop the duo from ever using the amulet to the fullest extent they can, because if they ever get that chance, it kills him.
The Sirens attacks can not only be broken away from in-game but he visibly keeps attacking through it anyway. Something I've noticed throughout this CRT is that for whatever reason, the positions of primary and secondary canon switched places for you.
First of all, the scans I was referencing are literally the ones on Kratos' page right now. You dug your own grave with that one, man. Anyways, I would appreciate some scans of this happening in main canon, as like I said, Kratos' current page relies solely on the novelization scans to prove that he has a resistance.
Pro tip, if you don't want people relying on secondary canon, maybe uh, don't use them as the one and only source in your justifications? Just a thought.
Via his bare hands. As we see in the Elysium Fields.
...Yes, and it still only triggers on kill. Kratos cannot absorb things by just hugging people. He has to kill them. That is a very important caveat - one that makes these abilities much less useful in VS matches - that you cannot ignore.
We had a whole debate on this in the original upgrade thread, so this comes off as more just denying it for the sake of it.
...And yet you still don't have a debunk for this. Hell, it's not even a debunk, it's just an explicit lack of evidence for the claimed abilities.
A lot of this is just calling out Bruno's WoG, which is odd given him breaking out of petrification happens in-game. A basic showcase that anyone familiar with the setting has seen.
The WoG confirms he is only
mostly encased in stone, so he still has enough of his body intact to break out. It's made clear in the novelization that, if Kratos were fully turned to stone, he would perish.
You
break out by shaking it off in-game. This isn't him just suffering said effect and it wearing off.
You can
literally see the acid puddle fade away before Kratos breaks free, Planck.
This is using a failed QTE as justification for a power removal? Yeah, I don't need to say why this is silly. Not to mention, the green energy is already enveloping him to begin with, rendering the dodging argument moot.
As Deagon said, fail states in video games are suitable for indexing. That aside, Kratos never event resists the amulet to begin with. Its energy isn't enveloping him, Kratos is holding their arm at bay while they
try to use their magic. Emphasis on "try", because the QTE is literally just breaking out of the twins' grip so they can't use their magic on you. If they
do use it successfully - which they don't do canonically! I'm aware of that! - then Kratos dies. The argument is not that this failed QTE is the canon version of events, it's meant to show what
would happen if the twins ever got to use the amulet's full power against Kratos, because we don't see them do it at any other point. It is literally just filling in missing context. Even if you disregarded that scene entirely... I mean, Kratos has 0 instances where he actually resists the amulet's powers, so then what?
In case you're curious, this goes both ways. Touhou has a non-canon bad ending where
the earth blows up, but we still index that because it's indicative of what
could happen, and it's a damn good feat. If Kratos got a notable feat or resistance from a failed QTE, then I wouldn't be opposed to including that on his profile, because it still shows what he's capable of in theory.
Kratos objectively does get tagged by the arms and isn't affected by it in-game. Alecto is specifically called the Fury of the Soul. Calling it turn of phrase doesn't fit here.
Do you have anything to actually back that up, because I find it odd that such a major resistance lacks vital scans like this. Also, Alecto being called the Fury of the Soul doesn't matter? That's a title, and we don't give soulhax to people based on names alone.
The hand is visibly glowing with said ability, so it's not really a case of pushing him off before he can fire it. The rest goes back to the "failed QTE" argument.
As Deagon said, the failed QTE argument makes no sense in this context. The priest's hand glowing doesn't mean the ability activates immediately; Kratos has a few moments to push them away, and if he doesn't, his magic gets absorbed. That's not non-canon, that's just a very basic interaction between Kratos and an enemy.
The source is the
novel itself. And it visibly doesn't in the medium that takes precedent over this. Simple as.
So here's the problem, and I probably could've made it more clear in the OP. If you take the games as canon over the novels, then Kratos does resist Typhon's breath... but Typhon's breath also doesn't have any feats of flash-freezing things, so Kratos gets resistance to cold temperatures at best. If the novel is canon over the games, then Typhon's breath
does flash-freeze things... but Kratos also dies to it, rendering it a moot point. The two canons contradict each other, so you cannot composite them to give Kratos a brand new resistance he would not have in either version by itself.
He's having his godhood stripped away and can still move in that same scan. He just doesn't resist the power nullification at that point. That's not paralysis.
The scan literally says he was held in place by an electric jolt and that the
paralysis had passed after a few moments. That is objectively paralysis inducement. That is the exact justification used on Zeus' profile for his paralysis inducement. Kratos being affected by it shows he does not resist Zeus' paralysis.
I'd say the flavor text of him going mad wouldn't take precedent over the in-game showcase of being fine and having his faculties, if still initially affected by their illusions, something that precedes the capture to start with.
As with the Typhon thing, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If Kratos wasn't driven insane... then, well, the Furies don't really have a justification for madness manipulation anymore, now do they? If Kratos
was driven insane, then madness manipulation can stay, but Kratos doesn't resist it.
This is just a bad gif given you can sit still and get it and visibly use your powers just fine. Genuinely, this comes off as padding.
Do you have scans of this, or not?
His intent is irrelevant here to start with. And the Aegean isn't what he resists so I do not know why this is brought up. The waters of the Lethe lie within the Styx and he's still fine after being within it at that.
The Aegean sea is important because it shows Kratos never actually entered the Lethe, despite his intent to do so. Also, the Lethe being part of the Styx is irrelevant; Just because he swam in the Styx does not mean he coincidentally swam in the small subsection that erases memories. You would need proof of that. Just because I swim in the ocean doesn't mean I'm swimming in the parts with sharks in it, in case you need a point of comparison.
All of this rambling ignores the specific scan where the showcase of his outright resistance happens;
when Clotho seeks to affect Kratos and cripple him with said threads and completely fails to do anything to him. The rest of the novel and its showcases are a build up to the fact that they completely don't control his destiny anymore, where that
and the arrogance of the Sisters contributes to their downfall. Something that is followed up immediately by the Sisters of Fate stating verbatim that
he developed a will independent of the fate they set for him, that's a separate issue from Gaia.
Multiple such instances in the novel are listed in that same debunk where Kratos ignores a set fate for and both sisters misapply blame to the other, which leads to further misunderstanding, something that is furthered along by others, like Hermes, specifically using that confusion to his benefit.
That he feels a strange pain from doing so doesn't really contradict that; it's a strange function of holding his life thread. A life thread that he severs and yet manages to go to battle Zeus right afterwards with little issue.
So you have one feat... against an entire
novel's worth of anti-feats. The conclusion is obvious; The instances where Kratos' fate is tampered with far outweigh the instances where it doesn't bother him, so the former incidents should be given precedent. Even after that feat, he still manipulates his own fate using the Spear of Destiny (which is the Sisters' own power, as you claim; Not some special layered fatehax unique to Kratos) and it clearly affects him. Also, "feeling a strange pain" is a disingenuous way of describing being brought to your knees by torturous agony that could kill a lesser man. Kratos is crippled by this act; He does not resist it in the slightest.
This paragraph is just a nothingburger. Just because one ability leads to a subset of many abilities doesn't prevent them from using those abilities separately
I like how you didn't even address the underlying logic, which is that Kratos fundamentally
can't resist those abilities because they cannot be weaponized against him. Why does he need to "resist" being attractive and f
uckable? How can someone resist the creation of new life? The latter thing can't even be applied to an individual!
He does but has no context for what he is seeing.
...Then he doesn't understand it, Planck.
We treat the sliver of Hope he wielded as separate from demigod power. And the rest of this can be summed up as "we see space but we don't know its space" for some reason. It makes an assumption based on nothing that can be seen. The basic information we get is that this is a dimension with a starry backdrop and what is seemingly a galaxy. Extrapolating further from that is based on little.
We do not give resistance to radiation for occupying space-like dimensions. I really don't know what else to add.
In the context of that part, it doesn't make sense. He's specifically noting that nothing can harm him anymore right after that, which fits in more with his godhood and superiority over mortal means.
...Yes, because he is viewing things from afar, while he is in a physically safe location. If taken literally, this would give gods invulnerability, which obviously isn't the case.
This is just a basic deduction. At worst, I can see this becoming a Possibly rating but a realm wide freeze at the same time Kratos reaches the Norse Realms isn't being presented as a funny coincidence here.
We have no reason to assume that correlation equals causation by default. Kratos shows up, Fimbulwinter starts, the two things don't
have to be connected.
- He does objectively start doing far better against Baldur by the end of that battle than at the start where he is thrown around by the latter.
- This is a separate showcase of Accelerated Development.
- I mean, yes. The whole issue is how fast he gets stronger and more capable.
1. Like I've said before, that's him shaking the rust off. He isn't explosively growing in power, he's able to barely eke out a win after being left on death's door.
2. It's also one that explicitly contradicts the first point.
3. It's done over a long period, and he doesn't even strictly get stronger. He's just getting back into shape after a long period of not fighting. That doesn't require any sort of AD.
He wields it get an edge and no longer needs it as the fight progresses. This is something we've tackled before already, since the Spear itself has no specific "anti-telepathy" ability.
It literally does, though. It overloads Heimdall's senses so he cannot read Kratos' mind as easily. That is the entire point of Kratos using it in the first place. The reason he doesn't need it again is because using it once was enough for him to counter Heimdall and gain the upper hand.
The magic specifically keeps them asleep beyond normal length, that is indeed sleep manipulation. This is saying that if I made a normally sleeping being stay that way forever, that wouldn't be sleep manipulation, which is baffling.
It is sleep manipulation, just not the kind that Kratos needs to "resist".
Is this assuming that Kratos just didn't wind up in the river despite being unconscious? Or that the water is only specifically dangerous when drunk? Yeah, this is nonsensical. We see it affect him when he falls in after losing said resistances.
If we never see him enter the river, then why would we assume that? He just fell down. Also, yes, the water is only deadly when drunk. That is what the scan says. You can think it's silly, but to my knowledge there is no scan saying it kills on any kind of contact (again, my "swimming in pool water is fine but drinking it is dangerous" comparison feels relevant here). Also, the last sentence is hilarious, because like. The whole point is that Kratos
doesn't resist these effects innately, so there's nothing for Zeus to negate.
Him being able to move souls to another realm would still be soul manipulation. The rest comes from what said souls are, and that it isn't combat applicable wouldn't really change that. This isn't even a debunk, it's just denying that someone can affect and handle souls for the sake of it.
Moving an object from point A to point B doesn't require any hax. At best, it's NPI, and even then we don't really know how Hermes moves souls around. He could just be guiding them, as far as we know. Regardless, it's not soulhax.
This is a lot of text to simply deny a scan for the hell of it. It says that his mind is to be sent to another world.
My point was that it's a metaphor. Kratos is going to "another world" in a non-literal sense, because he gets to briefly pretend his wife is alive and well. There is a stunning lack of evidence for the more complicated claim, which is that Persephone banished his psyche to another plane of existence. You'd do well to remember Occam's Razor in situations like these.
The second part is an innate aspect of what Chaos was prior to Uranus taking command of the cosmos. A void preceding everything. Them battling here would give them that resistance.
Battling inside a void doesn't grant resistance to void manipulation, unless that void is actively erasing everything there (which there is no proof of).
This is the same issue as before, in that for whatever reason, a base ability being capable of others is somehow a contradiction. Nothing here has been posted that really changes anything. They're capable of using Fate Manipulation for a great many things, nothing new.
I know that, Planck. But the actual problem, if you read the OP, is that none of these feats are probability or causality hax to begin with. Like, some even explicitly say they were performed by tampering with fate. Just because they can use their threads for many things doesn't mean they should get every ability they can theoretically have; You would need actual evidence of that.
It specifically absorbs the powers of those it kills and drains their godhood for use. This is asinine.
Yeah, and that's not empowerment, that's absorption.
I don't know whether its a scan-wrong-place issue or you're just running out of things to say. Magic inherently has this given the plethora of non-physical beings it allows one to interact with.
Yeah. Fine. Still doesn't belong on the page, though. Keep it to the magic page where it belongs, unless the Blade of Olympus has its own feats of NPI.
This isn't even a disagreement so much as it is a matter of good formatting, and the fact that you're willing to argue against better formatting or think I'm doing this in bad faith is just sad.
It specifically has the same magic as the Fates, to the point of even them being fearful of its power.
The point made regarding it being narratively contradictory doesn't make sense either. He's looking to travel back in time not specifically destroy his own fate or whatever. He would need the mirrors and Loom Chamber to do so.
It also still needs to cut the strings of fate to do its work. It literally cannot manipulate fate without them. So, can it conjure those strings from nothing? If not, then we have no reason to assume it can just obliterate someone's fate on contact.
This is just a basic misunderstanding of narrative context and game mechanics. Of course an in-game blast won't instantly kill those beings. Hence why we specifically see it do just that in media where said mechanics are not an issue. A large nothing burger of a section (quite common) that seems to argue ad verbosity and make assumptions about basic media concepts.
Yes, that's precisely my point! The games do not show these characters getting oneshot by attacks that, in lore, do oneshot people! So we can safely conclude that those attacks not oneshotting people is an example of gameplay mechanics, which means we cannot use them for resistances. If a character survives soul-destroying lightning outside of gameplay, then that's fine, but gameplay-based examples of that happening is a no-go. I'm so glad you agree!
I plan to go through the OP to give it the discussion it deserves. In for a penny, in for a pound, that sort of thing.
I think these threads have been basically well reasoned up to now, some more than others, and so I don't feel the need to despair. Just. I'm tired of God of War.
Me too man.
