The Elder Scrolls giants downgrade

[Keeweed]

Currently small Giants scale to smashing a large amount of rock up, but it uses violent fragmentation for something that is obviously regular fragmentation. I also think the giant picture is smaller than the current calc says it is. The giants in lore are 4 times larger than humans but the giant in the calc looks to be 2 to at best 3 times larger than the regular guy in the photo.
(I have no clue how to post photos on this site, so just look up Elder Scrolls legends unstoppable rage to see the photo I’m referring too).

Since both the giant and human are leaning over it would be way too hard for me to get an accurate size of the giant and human so I’ll do a rough recalculation using the size from the original calc. Note the size of the crater should be smaller but everyone in the shot is leaning way too much to get an accurate scale.

The fragmentation of rock is 8 j/cm^3

The volume in the original calc is 122000000 cm^3

122000000 times 8 equals 976000000.

976000000 joules is 0.23 tons which is Small Building level+. Note the volume in this calc is actually larger than it should be, the actual results should be lower than this.

This would downgrade anyone who scales to small giants like Aela and novice mages. Novices mages would have 9-A, possibly 8-C attack potency due to being able to vaporize people and scaling above giants, but they are stated to be able to accidentally vaporize themselves so they would only have 8-C durability with wards. Aela would be 9-A for scaling directly to giants.

Apprentice Mages and above still have consistent 8-C feats and a fodder daedra has a high 8-C feat, so people that scale to daedra (like the strongest members of the companion’s circle), and powerful mages can still be high 8-C.

When it comes to large giants I don’t think they qualify for our giant kinetic energy chart. That chart assumes the giants move fast relative to their size, but the pictures of the large giants constantly show that they move very slowly. Even the small giants move very slowly relative to their size (a regular human can out walk their run in game). At best I want to say the large giants would be unknown. When it comes to the large giant’s lifting strength Antoniofer did a calc for me a very long time ago.

“Welp, according to the profile it can reach low clouds, cumulus clouds are localized to at least 200 m above the surface, so that's means that the giant is at least (200/1.72)^3 = 1572200 times heavier than the average men, over 110000 tons; by default we gave giants the capacity to lift the half of their own weight, so over 55000 tons.”

 

[Keeweed]

Bump

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hot take but scaling every single fodder character to Giants when giants are supposed to be stronger than normal people for obvious reasons is hella dumb.

At least with the Companions it makes sense since they're Giant Slayers.

 

[Keeweed]

If I implied they scaled to everyone that is not what I meant. I was referring to the profiles that already currently scale to them like J zargo when I was referring to novice mages.

edit: I even said this only applies to people who already scale to giants in the op “This would downgrade anyone who scales”

 

[00potato]

Wait, this isn’t that major, why is it called a giant downgrade?

 

[Keeweed]

Wait, this isn’t that major, why is it called a giant downgrade?

I know you are possibly joking, but it is called the giant downgrade, because it is downgrading Giants the creatures.

edit: reread your comment. Sorry if I came off as super rude, because I now know you definitely weren’t joking.

 

[Hellbeast]

Why do we scale everyone to Giants tho?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why do we scale everyone to Giants tho?

Cause KongKing was lazy.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

At least with the Companions it makes sense since they're Giant Slayers.

To be fair, primitive man was known to hunt mammoth - and could be called "mammoth slayers", however obviously one primitive man isn't nearly as strong as a mammoth. What's to say that the companions don't, in the lore, at least, utilize piercing weapons and careful, coordinated attacks and ambushes to take out giants rather than just physically grappling them and taking hits from them?

This is just going off of the idea that they can kill Giants, if there's more context here (which I'm sure there is), it should be provided to help make things clearer on the thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is just going off of the idea that they can kill Giants, if there's more context here (which I'm sure there is), it should be provided to help make things clearer on the thread.

I think it's just that the most badass companions are noted to have killed giants single-handedly.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I think it's just that the most badass companions are noted to have killed giants single-handedly.

Do we have context for this? Like did they fight the Giants in 1v1 combat, or did they prepare traps? Did they just avoid attacks from the Giants while striking with piercing weaponry?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Do we have context for this? Like did they fight the Giants in 1v1 combat, or did they prepare traps? Did they just avoid attacks from the Giants while striking with piercing weaponry?

In-game you can actually encounter some of the Companion NPCs fighting giants with swords and shields usually in groups of two or three. There's no trapping they just fight.

Though how much you wanna consider them actually surviving hits head-on as game mechanics is up to you.

There's also the bit in Kyne's Challenge where the Nord Adventurer Fenrig kills a giant by himself, although he does it by dodging his swings and stabbing his head with his sword, which I'm sure you'll say isn't grounds for scaling (I agree, tbh). However, the same group of adventurers he's in includes the Orc Bashnag, who is repeatedly shown performing blatant feats of strength and defeating monsters with strength alone. To quote Ultima's blog:

• The orc Bashnag fights a Flesh Atronach single-handedly, hitting it with his mace so hard that its face caves in
• Bashnag also fights a Frost Atronach that has arms the size of tree-trunks and the height of four argonians, breaking its leg and making it fall down, uprooting a 20-year old pine tree in the process
• Bashnag manages to lift a Troll off the ground by its throat with one hand, and smash his body against a stone, while caving his skull with bashes from his mace with the other hand

Pretty much all of the adventurers in Kyne's Challenge have good feats, tbh. There's this feat where a Xivilai Daedra knocks down a Wayshrine from the Bogmother village with a single kick, and then the Nord Fighter's Guild Master Grundvik Cold-Fist proceeds to fight him one on one and, by summoning a spell that surrounds his hands in a magical aura of ice, literally punches through the Daedra's chest and rips out his heart.

• Worth nothing that GRundvik described the Xivalai as being "as strong as a giant and as graceful as an elf".

Basically I think it makes sense for really badass people to scale to giants. My problem is giving people like Dark Brotherhood Assassins scaling just because they exist.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

TBH the Xivilai feat is probably better than the giant crater.

Much of the village of Bogmother was on fire. Not an easy feat for the despoiler in question, due to the abundance of water and stone structures, but as we entered the settlement, thick black smoke could be seen billowing up from a number of indigenous mud nests the Saxhleel inhabit. Although presently, the owners of the properties were gathering their hatchlings and fleeing. Footfalls-in-Snow returned from a rasping conference with one of the village elders, and gathered me and Namasur into a small huddle. “A reject of Sithis, one who seeks to stifle our spawning grounds. A Daedra pillager is responsible for this wickedness. Waxhuthi!” the Argonian spat on the ground, clearly riled. As he cursed, we looked over to a wayshrine of rough stone and clinging moss. The burning shrine was snuffed, demolished by a powerful kick. The entire structure collapsed, and Footfalls-in-Snow let out a high-pitched squeak. As the rubble appeared through the fading dust, we finally gazed upon the marauder responsible.

The Wayshrine in question:

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Though how much you wanna consider them actually surviving hits head-on as game mechanics is up to you.

Well, to be fair, Giants also don't insta-kill plenty of things in the game that we obviously know don't have Giant-strength.

I'll look over the Kyne's challenge parts later, they appear to be solid however I'm currently splitting my attention between multiple threads.

 

[Keeweed]

Aela literally calls you a little baby for not helping her kill the giant. I think she and the rest of the circle members should scale. The regular none circle members of the companions would either be regular human or 9-B (I’ve heard most people in Nirn are regular humans but even rats have consistent 9-B feats so I have no clue if the elder scrolls rats are stronger than most people or not). I think Kodlak Whitemane possibly could be high 8-C since I remember a random fodder daedra has a high 8-C feat and there is a daedra heart as one of the companion’s trophy’s. But if that isn’t enough evidence for him to scale to daedra then he’ll just scale to Aela.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What High 8-C Daedra feat.

 

[Keeweed]

What High 8-C Daedra feat.

I’ve heard a daedra once destroyed a castle, but I’ll need to the find the quote. Granted it probably would be overtime rather than a single hit, but I remember a rusty apprentice mage had 8-C feats and Daedra should be better than them.

edit: found the quote “Soon word spread through all the villages in the Colovian West of the unholy terror. Whole families had been butchered, castles destroyed, orchards and fields torched and cursed so nothing would ever grow there again”

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Eh, that is not really enough to go up by a tier.

 

[Keeweed]

Eh, that is not really enough to go up by a tier.

Fair enough. Especially since Daedra and anyone who could scale to them don’t even have profiles yet. I do want to find the 8-C apprentice mages feats (I know for a fact some mages have 8-C, I just need to find the quotes) though because the castle destroying could be support for that tier.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Oh yeah, I remember 8-C mages being quoted to me at some point.

 

[Keeweed]

I’m at the gym right now so I won’t be able to respond, but want to make sure people agree with downgrading the small giants right? Also what are people’s opinions on the large giants?

 

[KongKing23]

Mages can burn down buildings of any size easily. Mages who can't even control their own magic can wipe out an entire town, like Merormo. Anyone with magic or affinity with magic but don't use it is naturally superior to those who can't.

With regard to my lazy scaling, I simply assume that any NPCs, significant in the game for special talent and achievements, should be able to kill a Giant. I am not going to say that every single adventurer can kill giant, maybe a group can do it. I refer to those NPCs that have established past achievements and special skills that earn reputation. These special NPCs are clearly above the normal mooks who barely make a living as an adventurer. Like Karliah as a Nightingale or Haldyn of the Blood-Horkers, they are superior to every mook that you see on the streets. They can easily slay Giants.

Additionally, Nightingales are exceptional agents chosen by Nocturnal herself. They are on par or even above the folks in the Nocturnal's organization during the ESO Daedric War, which Nocturnal's agents at the time performed some pretty insane feats (too hard to mod in Skyrim). Giving Mercer Frey the tier below a Giant does not sit well with me at all.

 

[Keeweed]

To be fair with this downgrade Mercer is technically the giants’ tier (he’s 9-A and they’ll be 9-A) and his tier with the skeleton key should probably scale to them now. But Nightengales in general shouldn’t scale. The Nightengales in Skyrim couldn’t get past a door because a few rocks fell in the way and they practically crap themselves when they notice Mercer did a baseline 9-A feat.

The Nightengales of the past have decent feats but none of the current members have similar feats and they are all terrified of Mercer’s.

I doubt mages could burn down a building of “any” size since burning down a skyscraper requires them to be low 7-C and master mages barely manage to be 7-C. After I finish my school work today I’ll find some of the 8-C feats for apprentice and above mages because I know they have them.

 

[KongKing23]

To be fair with this downgrade Mercer is technically the giants’ tier (he’s 9-A and they’ll be 9-A) and his tier with the skeleton key should probably scale to them now. But Nightengales in general shouldn’t scale. The Nightengales in Skyrim couldn’t get past a door because a few rocks fell in the way and they practically crap themselves when they notice Mercer did a baseline 9-A feat.

That room is actually a pocket dimension.

 

[Keeweed]

What room are you referring too and when was that ever mentioned when it came to Mercer. If your referring to the room you fight Mercer, they specifically say rocks fell in the way the door. You causally walk out of another exit when the rising water allows you to swim to it, so the door being stuck really was because a few rocks fell in the way. Also Mercer’s 9-A feat of knocking over a tower terrified the Nightengales and they don’t even manage to start fighting Mercer because he mind controls them into fighting each other.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not sure what he's talking either.

 

[KongKing23]

What room are you referring too and when was that ever mentioned when it came to Mercer. If your referring to the room you fight Mercer, they specifically say rocks fell in the way the door. You causally walk out of another exit when the rising water allows you to swim to it, so the door being stuck really was because a few rocks fell in the way. Also Mercer’s 9-A feat of knocking over a tower terrified the Nightengales and they don’t even manage to start fighting Mercer because he mind controls them into fighting each other.

I thought you referred to the room in Darkness Returns Quest. Nevermind,

 

[Keeweed]

Bump.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Bump.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Shouldn't the calculation be updated with soil values as well? That really doesn't look like a slab of solid granite.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Shouldn't the calculation be updated with soil values as well? That really doesn't look like a slab of solid granite.

this, tbh

 

[Keeweed]

I don’t think it is soil, it appears to be rock, but I doubt it is granite. I used stone in my recalc.
Also sorry for responding so late. I was very busy last week.

 

[Keeweed]

Sorry for not responding for so long. I had test and final exams. I’ve heard people say they want to use the energy of soil rather than stone for a recalc of the giant feat. I don’t think it makes much sense in the picture (I still don’t know how to post images on this new site), since the pieces are uniformed and stable and aren’t blasted around like soil, which would be falling apart (by that I mean grab a rock and throw it then grab dirt and throw it. The dirt will fall apart like dust, that doesn’t happen in the feat’s picture. The pieces that are destroyed by the giant stay completely uniformed). Though the calc does need to be remade anyways because I think the giants size was vastly over estimated in the original calc, so if someone can tell me the energy requirement to fragment soil I’ll try to do a rough recalc when I get a chance tomorrow.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder

What do you think should be done here?

 

[Keeweed]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder

We would appreciate some input here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There's not much to say right now the situation is obviously not conclusive.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder

So should we close this thread?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No leave it open.