The Elder Scrolls Half-Time Revisions

[Keeweed]

Plus the idea masters and the influence of both Sheogorath and Bal all instantly defeat you. That’s impossible to ignore as a massive anti feat.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Alduin is immortal and superior to Shor. That’s two pretty big reasons he couldn’t fight him.

The half dead Vile that is so weak he’s stuck in a single cave as an avatar and has half his power lost as it’s in barbas. And even with that he’s still invincible to the Dovahkiin at any section of the game and is required to kill Barbas.

Mora literally says and does the exact opposite. He says Miraak is a stupid idiot that is nothing in comparison to him and one hit kills him. It’s shown to be the same avatar he used outside the realm and even assuming it’s his true self that still means Mora > Miraak by a massive degree as Miraak is fully obliterated by the hit. Miraak couldn’t have been too weakened as he had just absorbed dragon souls to regain his strength. At least not weak enough to literally be dusted by Mora’s love tap.

That also doesn’t address Bal trapping you in a house with his influence, Sheogorath doing something similar, and meridia casually treating you and calling you worthless.

1. He is actually stated to have defeated alduin 2 times

2. again using game mechanics, u cannor kill him cus he is "Essensial" NPC. only during the mission does it take it away to give u the option.

3. Mora is literally inside his realm, this is not an avatar

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Plus the idea masters and the influence of both Sheogorath and Bal all instantly defeat you. That’s impossible to ignore as a massive anti feat.

I can stand besides the crystal of the masters for an hour or more and not be worried cus of my health, so there is nothing "instant" about that.

 

[Keeweed]

That’s not a gameplay mechanic. Barbas is specifically meant to be killed by the axe. That’s the entire point of the quest. Plus again that’s a dying Barbos separated from Vile that also had his power drained by Umbra. It’s an anti feat no matter how you slice it.

I know he is in the realm. But avatars can be used in the realm too and we know avatars look different from the true forms by Hircine. Mora uses the same attack and form he used as an avatar to kill the guy out of Oblivion. He also appears in the same form in his artifact quest.

 

[Keeweed]

I can stand besides the crystal of the masters for an hour or more and not be worried cus of my health, so there is nothing "instant" about that.

Ultima and Matt specifically told me that just up and kill’s you. So could be Bethesda funk. But the fact it kill’s you at all is the problem. Especially since the Dovahkiin couldn’t even enter the realm to begin with without being soul trapped or being undead entirely.

 

[Keeweed]

The essence of the idea masters can kill you, Sheogorath and Bal essences can trap you, Meridia views you as nothing, and Barbas at his absolute weakest as an avatar is beyond you. Every Daedric prince that more directly interacts with you can do whatever they want to you.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Ultima and Matt specifically told me that just up and kill’s you. So could be Bethesda funk. But the fact it kill’s you at all is the problem. Especially since the Dovahkiin couldn’t even enter the realm to begin with without being soul trapped or being undead entirely.

1. Provide proof of that
2. u are entering their realm, daedra, aedra etc. have an absolute control over them and who enters and leaves, so not a surprise

 

[Keeweed]

Okay cool, so you are perfectly fine with admitting that through their power they can just keep the Dovahkiin out and even kill instantly at the door. The entire point of why it’s even an anti feat to begin with. And that’s with the idea masters who don’t scale to any significant gods at all. And it’s in Nirn where they can only be avatars. That’s literally the entire point of why I bring them up. The idea masters are fully beyond you, they straight transcend you in your totality, how could you possibly be stronger than them? Especially when they prove they can do whatever they want with you even just by the entrance to their plane alone.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

The essence of the idea masters can kill you, Sheogorath and Bal essences can trap you, Meridia views you as nothing, and Barbas at his absolute weakest as an avatar is beyond you. Every Daedric prince that more directly interacts with you can do whatever they want to you.

1. My character begs to differ.
2. You willingly entered both scenarios, not to mention u can escape bal quest.
3. Meridia views people as nothing, princes view peaople as nothing, them stating it is nothing new.
4. not according to Val who states u are basically half his power cus the other half is on the dog.

 

[Keeweed]

He specifically clarifies that you’re nearly as strong as him at that particular moment. The same moment where he is on Nirn (thus is an avatar), dying (since his influence can’t even leave a single cave), and had his power drained by Umbra. And even with all of that, half of his power in Barbas is still invincible to you. I’ll respond to the rest soon my phone is lagging like crazy.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Firstly Tsun is hilariously beyond the Dovahkiin

Yea I conceded to this point with Finepoint.

Boethiah views you lesser than her campions not even her avatar.

Boethiah isn’t about raw strength. It’s about ruthlessness and cunning as well. Molag bal actually remarks your power.

The avatar of Mora kills Miraak in a singular hit and completely obliterates him with nothing remaining. We know it’s the avatar because it the same him that appeared on Nirn and only a small influence of their avatars can go there normally.

first off, it wasn’t an avatar it was in Mora’s realm where he’s omnipresent. Everything around you is Mora. Second off he killed Miraak after we beat him down multiple times after amping himself. He came in and finished Miraak off on his last legs. I personally don’t think we can scale the Dovahkiin to the princes but he definitely scales to their avatars.

It doesn’t make any sense to say Alduin has a weakened key, especially since he devoured a crap ton of souls before the Dragonborn got to him and he was throwing everything away to try and kill them. The only option left is that it’s clearly an outlier that they won. Whenever Alduin is written to interact with the gods he can do so just fine pretty much, while the Dovahkiin gets completely wrecked by even the lesser avatars.

It’s not an outlier. It’s part of the story for the Dovahkiin to be more powerful than Alduin. Both the dragons and miraak state this. We can solve this by giving Alduin and extra key for being 1-A and his High 1-B that the Dovahkiin scales to or attribute it to prisoner metaphysics.

Also one last piece of further reasoning for Dovahkiin being stuck at tier 2: the slight essence of the Idea Masters’ avatars (just some random crystals around the Soul Carin) can also instantaneously kill the Dovahkiin and their random bone champions are a major battle for them. The idea masters are currently low 1-C and honestly should be lower, and they place a hard limit on the Dovahkiin since they fully transcend them.

the ideal masters profile is heavily outdated. Low 1-C was how the princes were scaled back in like 2018 or something lol. Your argument heavily relies on game mechanics. A giant is a major fight too, it doesn’t mean it is lorewise. Karstagg is harder than miraak and miraak is the most powerful enemy that the Dovahkiin has ever fought. Ahzidal has the power of the dawn and oblivion, yet Harkon is harder to fight against.

Overall the Dovahkiin would scale to the avatars of gods due to the vestige. The developers outright say that the vestige is inferior to the Dovahkiin, and the vestige even needs a gimmick to kill above average dragons. The vestige can’t even thinking about taking on tier 1s without an amp yet the Dovahkiin takes on Mundus tier threats all the time without effort.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

He specifically clarifies that you’re nearly as strong as him at that particular moment. The same moment where he is on Nirn (thus is an avatar), dying (since his influence can’t even leave a single cave), and had his power drained by Umbra. And even with all of that, half of his power in Barbas is still invincible to you. I’ll respond to the rest soon my phone is lagging like crazy.

He is in his realm but can only use that shrine to talk/communicate. and he is not dying, they are not dependent on worship.
during the mission he has not been affected by Umbra and the sword has been innactive at that time.

Again essential NPC, but i guess Arngeir must also be prince level since he is invincible to us too

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Alduin is immortal and superior to Shor. That’s two pretty big reasons he couldn’t fight him

Alduin isn’t superior to Shor. At best they’re equals. Shor has beaten Alduin before in canon. They’re mythic interpretations of Lorkhan and Aka. They should scale around the same.

Miraak couldn’t have been too weakened as he had just absorbed dragon souls to regain his strength

He literally absorbed all his dragon souls and got beat into an inch of his life without much room to heal or escape and then Mora got the last hit in.

 

[Keeweed]

You did not willingly enter Sheogorath’s scenario, that man straight up kidnaps you. You also can’t leave at first and the door is absolutely keeping you in for a bit of the quest. I don’t see why Merida and ever other Daedric prince would continue to call you hot garbage if you were stronger than literally all of them combined. Especially since Jggalagy and Hircine easily acknowledge when they are out matched.

Vile specifically stated he was stuck in that cave and couldn’t do anything about it. And it isn’t that Barbas is essential, it’s that he’s specifically stated to only be able to be killed by the Dovahkiin through that axe. It’s the entire reason you did the quest was to get the thing so Vile could allow you to kill Barbos to at least get the strength required to leave the cave. Umbra is the whole reason why Vile is in the cave to begin with. That’s what weakened him.

 

[Keeweed]

Alduin isn’t superior to Shor. At best they’re equals. Shor has beaten Alduin before in canon. They’re mythic interpretations of Lorkhan and Aka. They should scale around the same.

He literally absorbed all his dragon souls and got beat into an inch of his life without much room to heal or escape and then Mora got the last hit in.

Far on the first point, that is a more accurate way to say it, but it still is Alduin being on par with a pretty significant god and that’s all I really meant. Doesn’t line up with the bridge in heaven annihilating you.

However, Miraak had just used a shout before hand and could still move around and stuff. Even assuming he was weakened Miraak literally turned the dude to dust with a single hit. No amount of being hurt will make the difference that big.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Not to mention Miraak is already stated to be capable of killing alduin and how the Tongues went to him for help but refuse.
Also ultima agrees with the H1B version for both dova and alduin etc. since his last thread

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Also. If we all agree the Dovahkiin doesn’t scale to the princes, that still won’t take away from his rating.
1. The princes will be 1-A anyways so the Dovahkiin being high 1-B doesn’t really disrupt anything

2. None of the justifications in this CRT have to do with Alduin.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Even assuming he was weakened Miraak literally turned the dude to dust with a single hit.

Yea I’m not arguing he scales to mora. I’m just countering the notion that Mora saved the Dovahkiin or something.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Far on the first point, that is a more accurate way to say it, but it still is Alduin being on par with a pretty significant god and that’s all I really meant. Doesn’t line up with the bridge in heaven annihilating you.

However, Miraak had just used a shout before hand and could still move around and stuff. Even assuming he was weakened Miraak literally turned the dude to dust with a single hit. No amount of being hurt will make the difference that big.

I don't see were you got "you are beaten instantly on the bridge" from or this line of thinking at all.

1. Miraak is already stated that can defeat alduin
2. He defeats post alduin Dova
3. Dova gets stronger and beats the hell out of miraak multiple times over.
4. Miraak beaten once more and escaping to heal gets shanked by mora

 

[Keeweed]

I think the thing is if oblivion gets upgraded to 1-A that would make Alduin 1-A from Daedra and the gods and both can smoke you and half of a weakened avatar says you are nearly as strong as him despite still being invincible to you. It’s all massive reasons I find it very weird for the Dovahkiin to scale. Like legitimately the Vestige and Neveraine are both applied or stated to be weaker than the Dovahkiin yet they fight the avatars and stuff all the time yet the Dovahkiin repeatedly can’t. Also the Vestige being in the ball park of the Dovahkiin is still an outlier for them because they needed the amulet of kings to defeat Bal yet even assuming the Dovahkiin would scale above them they should still be in the same general area of power.

 

[Keeweed]

“I don't see were you got "you are beaten instantly on the bridge" from or this line of thinking at all.”

Walk past the bridge without fighting Tsun and watch the Dovahkiin promptly die.

Also to Fax, if the Dovahkiin doesn’t scale to Mora that’s my entire point. Alduin absolutely does (he scales to Dagon and Shor). So something needs to give there. I personally don’t think it can be a new key because that doesn’t line up. But then daedric princes are clearly above the Dovahkiin so him fighting Alduin doesn’t line up. There is circular scaling, really obvious ones, and it sucks.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

“I don't see were you got "you are beaten instantly on the bridge" from or this line of thinking at all.”

Walk past the bridge without fighting Tsun and watch the Dovahkiin promptly die.

Also to Fax, if the Dovahkiin doesn’t scale to Mora that’s my entire point. Alduin absolutely does. So something needs to give there. I personally don’t think it can be a new key because that doesn’t line up. But then daedric princes are clearly above the Dovahkiin so him fighting Alduin doesn’t line up. There is circular scaling, really obvious ones, and it sucks.

not so all powerful

"him fighting alduin does not line up"

oh the game and its events must have been an illusion, i swore i could remember the entire main plot being u defeating alduin. First alduin appears with no statement on lore that he is somehow weaker. Fights dova at the mountain ("Bahloki nahkip sillesejoor. My belly is full of the souls of your fellow mortals, Dovahkiin. Die now and await your fate in Sovngarde!") then you beat him, he runs away to eat souls and become stronger, u defeat him again killing him.

You meet miraak who is stated to be stronger than alduin, he beats u casually. U becomes stronger, you beat him multiple times, dies and your also absorb him.

Pretty straight forward to me: Alduin << Dova < miraak <<dova <<< Dova absorbed miraak

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

“I don't see were you got "you are beaten instantly on the bridge" from or this line of thinking at all.”

Walk past the bridge without fighting Tsun and watch the Dovahkiin promptly die.

Also to Fax, if the Dovahkiin doesn’t scale to Mora that’s my entire point. Alduin absolutely does (he scales to Dagon and Shor). So something needs to give there. I personally don’t think it can be a new key because that doesn’t line up. But then daedric princes are clearly above the Dovahkiin so him fighting Alduin doesn’t line up. There is circular scaling, really obvious ones, and it sucks.

What I’m saying is. We should give Alduin 2 keys.

High 1-B during the events of Skyrim where the Dovahkiin would scale

1-A at his full strength. If we assume he didn’t necessarily get to full power this could work. Because it’s not like tier 1 is some outlier for the Dovahkiin. Morokei, Ahzidal, Ancano, and so on. It’s pretty consistent just going by feats that the Dovahkiin is High 1-B. Being unkillable to someone doesn’t mean they don’t scale. It’s a staple in the games that gods on practically immortal gods that can return instantly even if erased entirely. Same thing with Dagoth ur. The nerevarine still scales to him but he needed to find a way to put him for permanently. This is seen by the fact that Alduin cannot one shot the Dovahkiin like miraak can yet you don’t need any special conceptual immortality negation to kill him.

 

[Keeweed]

“Preaty straight forward to me: Alduin << Dova < miraak <<dova <<< Dova absorbed miraak”

that completely misses this part:

Mora = Dagon < Amulet of King < Shor = Alduin (who is also > Dagon) < Dovahkiin < Miraak < Mora?

Edit: More accurate list but main point still stands

Dagon < Mora < Amulet of Kings < Shor = Alduin (who is > Dagon) < Dovahkiin < Miraak < and then goes right back to Mora.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Dagon scaling to Mora is CAP

 

[Keeweed]

Even then the amulet of kings is still beyond all the Daedra, it’s only a small fraction of the powers of the gods with the avatar of Akatosh fully killing the true Dagon. Yet Alduin fights Shor a full on god. It’s still Alduin scares Daedric princess, resets everything, and can fight a god, yet a daedric prince kills Miraak so hard they are dusted by the hit.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Even then the amulet of kings is still beyond all the Daedra, it’s only a small fraction of the powers of the gods with the avatar of Akatosh fully killing the true Dagon. Yet Alduin fights Shor a full on god. It’s still Alduin scares Daedric princess, resets everything, and can fight a god, yet a daedric prince kills Miraak so hard they are dusted by the hit.

Amulet isn’t beyond all the Daedra. Especially someone like Namira.

 

[Keeweed]

It strength the barrier between Nirn and Oblivion forever and kept the Daedra from ever being able to truly enter Nirn again (at least the Akatosh avatar from it did). How would that not scale above all the Daedra when it specifically is a hard limit for them.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

It strength the barrier between Nirn and Oblivion forever and kept the Daedra from ever being able to truly enter Nirn again (at least the Akatosh avatar from it did). How would that not scale above all the Daedra when it specifically is a hard limit for them.

Namira’s influence still bypasses it. She also doesn’t care about world domination so yea.

 

[Keeweed]

it depends on what way you mean that. Sheogorath can obliviously still do stuff through the barrier since he can trap you in Skyrim and the Idea Masters can kill you too. But I don’t remember her being able to manifest her true self on Nirn and invade (to clarify I know she doesn’t want to, I just mean if she even can). Hircine couldn’t with a weaker barrier, Sheogorath can’t with the new barrier (which is important since his avatar is still superior to the Dovahkiin too), and Bal gets directly wrecked by the amulet. What does Mora scale to when it comes to Daedric princes again since the exact between all of them is one of my weaker known points with them. (I know Nocturnal and Jggyalag are really stronger and Dagon’s pretty much at the bottom).

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

it depends on what way you mean that

Possibility and entropy (and all primal dualism) flow from her realm. She’s the queen of all Et’ada in like 2 myths. She’s like sithis 2.0 for the most part. Her effects are felt everywhere in the same way Sithis’ effects are felt everywhere.

But I don’t remember her being able to manifest her true self on Nirn and invade.

She doesn’t want to. In the same way Sithis doesn’t care for it.

What does Mora scale to when it comes to Daedric princes again since the exact between all of them is one of my weaker known points with them. (I know Nocturnal and Jggyalag are really stronger and Dagon’s pretty much at the bottom).

Top 5 as of right now are
Namira
Nocturnal
Ithelia (presumably)
Mora
Jyg

Dagon isn’t really at the bottom. Dagon’s avatar was able to defeat a true form Molag bal.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Now that I think more about it I don’t think she can. That wouldn’t make the amulet more powerful than her though as that would make no sense.

 

[Keeweed]

I’m annoyed my entire post just lagged out. It’s getting late for me anyways so I’ll just ask one last things. I’ve heard so much contradictory information on which Daedric princes scales above which in why from you, Ultima, and Matt, so I’ll just ask more directly why would Mora scale above the Amulet, and would that place him near or above Shor. Because if it does I still think the other artifact quest and the shor bridge lightning are wrenches in the scaling but at least it’s more in line with normal outlier stuff can give some more leanway then like a straight contradiction.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

I’m annoyed my entire post just lagged out. It’s getting late for me anyways so I’ll just ask one last things. I’ve heard so much contradictory information on which Daedric princes scales above which in why from you, Ultima, and Matt, so I’ll just ask more directly why would Mora scale above the Amulet, and would that place him near or above Shor. Because if it does I still think the other artifact quest and the shor bridge lightning are wrenches in the scaling but at least it’s more in line with normal outlier stuff can give some more leanway then like a straight contradiction.

Just because the amulet was able to take down one prince doesn’t mean they’re able to take down all the others. There’s also far more things keeping the princes out than just the amulet. It’s the Amulet, the dragonfires, the towers, and so on. Molag bal is pretty low tier compared to a lot of the princes. So you defeating him with the amulet doesn’t really mean you can effect all the other princes. Especially when someone like Mora made the entire Aurbis forget about Ithelia even existing. Or nocturnal who’s born directly from the primordial void/dark heart. Or even Namira who created the dark heart which is a piece of the primal void that beyond Aetherius and even the aurbis.

We also don’t really know if Shor scales above mora or vice versa. You’d assume Shor would be more powerful for being an Aedric god but maybe Mora is more powerful. We don’t really have that much going on for Shor to tell.

 

[Keeweed]

Honestly the big things that made me think that are something I should probably ask Ultima about. But to clarify I can get getting asked questions like this as staff can be annoying. So I’ll check tomorrow if he’s free and willing to chat. Not because I trust them more, I just remember alot of how the high tiers were rated comes from him so I want to know the current scaling more in depth.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Ultima and Matt specifically told me that just up and kill’s you. So could be Bethesda funk. But the fact it kill’s you at all is the problem. Especially since the Dovahkiin couldn’t even enter the realm to begin with without being soul trapped or being undead entirely.

No it does not, it slowly drains your health over a prolong period of time the only way it insta kills you is if you are at the base 100 health and recived a debuff to go below 50 health other wise it drains you at somethign like 40 hp a tick.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

yet a daedric prince kills Miraak so hard they are dusted by the hit.

cept that isn't what happens, Miraak who was near death tries to escape the LDB and he gets his chest pierced by mora (who mind you wanted miraak done in yet didn't do it himself in his own god damned realm) after which point miraak gives one final speech and we absorb his soul, he isn't dusted by mora he is dusted by us eating his very essence.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Dagon’s avatar was able to defeat a true form Molag bal.

Honestly Molag bal ******* sucks man, he is the worst of the princesses to be honest

 

[Sir_sun_man]

but what can ya do he is an ascended god and not an et'ada so he is bound to be less impressive then the primordial spirits.


(oh and I'd say that the Dovakhin does scale to the princess just on the lower end than most of (if not all) of them, but he is still powerful enough to off set the balance depending on which prince they serve)

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Honestly Molag bal ******* sucks man, he is the worst of the princesses to be honest

Yea every prince has some cool lore to them admiring their power.
Nocturnal/Namira/Mora are called Ur-Dra
So is azura but I call cap on that.
Boethiah is referred to as one of the strongest padomaics and is apparently apart of a composite prince between Azura, Mephala and Boethiah, who are called Ur-Dra.
Mephala was called one of the strongest spirits with her webs stretching across the Aurbis.
What does Molag bal get though? Nothing. He’s literally just a troublesome Daedric prince. You knows it bad when an avatar of Dagon, the prince of L’s matches you in your own realm lmao