The Current Ruling on YouTube profiles and other issues

[Wokistan]

2. Being so obscure that it has no English translation, with only one person on the site willing to verify feats. If there's only one person capable/willing to check statistics then they can easily become unreliable, and are too obscure to have a page.

Doesn't this sorta cause issues for KKK? I wouldn't vouch for its removal mind you, but without ALRF only Shiro ever really evaluates this stuff due to being a native Japanese speaker. (Masada people if I'm wrong feel free to say so) Could give it an exception due to being well established already.

 

[Agnaa]

It has already been established and verified already, so it seems fine for now.

 

[Sera_EX]

Remove the part about self published stories. "Internet fiction with only a few thousand views" is just a flowery way to describe "stuff that belongs on FC/OC". It's also biased against self-published works (even if it's not intended to be) as even an officially published work cam only have a couple thousand views so long as it's a niche.

 

[Antvasima]

I would prefer if he keeps it, as this instruction page is supposed to be specific regarding what is and isn't allowed. Rewording it might be an idea though.

 

[Sera_EX]

Oh an instruction page, never mind then.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Ogurtsow]

I doubt the second rule. I personally know quite enough verses that have never been translated into other languages (Usually because the franchise wasn't successful on the domestic land, and/or the creators themselves are unwilling to spread their franchise to the international audience). But even then, such verses are appropriate by our standards anyway. People who speak the language, in which such a verse originally is, may add it to the wiki like any other appropriate verse. The only difference is that they have to translate some minor details (Such as character names, the verse name, attacks/techniques, etc.) on their own, but not the entire product.

 

[Ogurtsow]

As for music video characters, I have quite enough thoughts in my mind:

We allow characters like the Crazy Frog and Gummibär, since both of them are 100% fictional by themselves, live in the fictional worlds portrayed in their music videos, have a solid canon, and provide a plot throughout the music videos.

We also allow characters like Gluk`oZa. Although she's based on the real-life pop singer of the same (nick)name, the character appears in a fictional world. She also meets aliens who die from a single child's sneeze, and anthropomorphic pigs throughout the music videos. These are fictional elements — such creatures don't exist in our world.

The thing is that even "alive" music videos may have fictional elements. For example, in this music video we can see that the building bulds iron pillars by itself, and the guy from the band pushes a pretty big boulder to the top. These are fictional elements as well ― there's no bulding that can build iron pillars by itself, nor human who is able to push a pretty big boulder to the top. In their another music video, that guy has shown some kind of Life Manipulation while singing, which is also impossible for IRL people.

To summarize the legitimacy of the likes of Django Django:

1. Plot (Their songs are literally some kind of a plot throughout the music videos)
2. Setting (The building from Hail Bop, or simply its ability, is obviously fictional and doesn't exist IRL)
3. Canon (Django Django's official music videos are obviously their canon)

An anti-example I can think about is Novislav ─Éaji─ç from the Serbia Strong music video. He's just a man who plays an accordion there, and the music video consists of IRL events only, without any fictional elements. Thus, I think, this way we can draw a line regarding which "alive" music characters may be allowed, and which ones may not.

 

[Sera_EX]

Yeah, language barrier doesn't make something obscure. Unless the verse has unreliable stats due to it, it should be allowed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Something being untranslated shouldn't be enough by itself to brand it as "obscure". Only if it's actually already obscure should it be considered, to avoid cases of bullshitting by one person.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I feel like live acted music videos should be an instant no no, or at least it should be made very clear that they are acting out characters within the music videos. Also, music videos without a greater universe need to be looked at with much scrutiny, as featless characters should likely not be added to the wiki.

 

[Sera_EX]

Featless characters is another beast entirely but I agree with the Lord of Ovens.

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

I feel like live acted music videos should be an instant no no, or at least it should be made very clear that they are acting out characters within the music videos. Also, music videos without a greater universe need to be looked at with much scrutiny, as featless characters should likely not be added to the wiki.

Well what about Disturbed? The song "Vengeful One" is live-action, but the character is clearly not one of the singers or a stage persona.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

At this point I feel like you guys are just giving me new songs to listen to.

That should be fine I believe. The guy is part of a narrative, not unlike a live action action movie.

The live action music videos I'm referring to are those like Misery bu Maroon 5 where the lead singer, Adam Levine, is being killed over and over again by his ex-girlfriend. The video itself is played for illustrative value, not to tell a story. What's more, Adam Levine plays himself, not a character.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah, language barrier doesn't make something obscure. Unless the verse has unreliable stats due to it, it should be allowed.

I don't think Agnaa was saying that any untranslated work shouldn't be allowed, but we can't have reliable stats if it's a foreign work and only one user is interpreting it and they refuse to provide scans/evidence when prompted.

The rule should stay, I think we're misreading it.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

this exists too if you want to look at it

I won't derail anymore after this.

 

[Jasonsith]

At this point I feel like you guys are just giving me new songs to listen to.

That should be fine I believe. The guy is part of a narrative, not unlike a live action action movie.

The live action music videos I'm referring to are those like Misery bu Maroon 5 where the lead singer, Adam Levine, is being killed over and over again by his ex-girlfriend. The video itself is played for illustrative value, not to tell a story. What's more, Adam Levine plays himself, not a character.

Then what about this? I am confident she qualifies as a character. There are actually a lot of Chinese songs and music videos where characters are really fictional characters doing crazy things.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

See, the thing is that at some point we need to draw a line between a cohesive narrative and just powers for the sake of powers.

At least in The Vengeful One, I could piece together a loose plot, but for the Chinese video I saw nothing but a lady with superpowers for the sake of superpowers.

This is on the level of Misery where the lead singer is playing himself but he can survive getting blasted by a rocket. She even has a dance sequence reminiscent of Taylor Swift's Me music video that came out recently.

There is no cohesive narrative that I could piece together. Things are happening that have no correlation to the last thing that happened. I am against this being added to the site.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Sir Ovens makes sense regarding music videos.

As for the not translated into English verses, what do the rest of you think about Dargoo Faust's analysis? Would it be better to reword the rule rather than get rid of it entirely?

 

[Andytrenom]

Will just say this, music videos having fictional elements shouldn't be enough. In this case they demonstrate being separate from the real world but they don't demonstrate being accountable to internal logic and having stability in their setting.

Note how I said "accountable to internal logic" instead of "having internal logic", because being inconsistent about their rules is something many verses suffer from. All we need to know is that the music video's world is meant to have rules, not that they have strict and fixed rules.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

My stance would be that not translated verses should stay if we can verify feats. I mean if only one guy can translate the verse, it's going to be very hard to dispute them on feats. Everything is popular at some level, somewhere. It would be unfair to judge them solely based on that fact. I think that other rules should apply at this point. Flowery language, outrageous feats, or in the rare case of The Invisible Dragon, completely incomprehensible grammar, should be grounds for deletion.

 

[Ogurtsow]

People may post this kind of blogs when it comes to either audio-only or text-only statements. That's especially relevant for book verses. However, if one or another feat is visual, translation isn't really required usually. I've added some of such verses. To justify one or another feat, I just put a link to a YouTube video with the suitable timestamp, and explain what does happen in the scene in favor of the character I make a profile on.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think blogs are a good way to clarify any misunderstandings. Maybe not a rule, but rather a guideline that obscure, non-English works should preferably have a feat blog to better illustrate to non-native speakers the legitamacy of said feats.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Flowery language, outrageous feats, or in the rare case of The Invisible Dragon, completely incomprehensible grammar, should be grounds for deletion.

so basically World of Darkness

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

Or the Lovecraft Mythos?

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

Or mythology

 

[Sera_EX]

Describe "outrageous feats". Just because you think a verse where everyone and their mother is 1-A is outrageous doesn't mean it should be deleted. Also, do not discriminate against non English works, that's not gonna fly. Any verse with high statistics and a complex cosmology should have a freaking explanation page or blog if necessary, not just untranslated ones.

All we need is sufficient evidence, that's what CRTs exist for. If it's legit, it counts. Personal opinions and taste are irrelevant here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"Just because you think a verse where everyone and their mother is 1-A is outrageous doesn't mean it should be deleted."

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Describe "outrageous feats".

I think Ovens was reffering to 'outrageous' in the sense that the feats are convoluted and don't really add up.

And yeah, that's what CRTs are for. But honestly if the supporters of a verse can't reliably provide sourcing for these feats then the verse shouldn't be on the site unless a more active user is willing to research the verse.

 

[Sera_EX]

Absolutely. I mean, that was the problem with I/O. Only one person could validate the feats until that one boi (you know the one that was banned for posting memes) decided to do it justice. The issue wasn't language though, it was "only one person knows about the verse and the verse is high tiered". Could've been an English verse and the issue would be the same.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Could've been an English verse and the issue would be the same.

I agree. If I came off like I was saying "untranslated verses should be deleted" I apologize, that was not my argument.

However it's fair to say that since there is extra legwork in translating and that this is a majority english wiki that this situation tends to happen more often with untranslated works. Not that it changes whatever rule we come up with or keep, just that it's more of a trend.

 

[Sera_EX]

It's okay, and that is true yeah.

 

[Agnaa]

@Ogurtsow, Sera, Saikou

I doubt the second rule. I personally know quite enough verses that have never been translated into other languages (Usually because the franchise wasn't successful on the domestic land, and/or the creators themselves are unwilling to spread their franchise to the international audience). But even then, such verses are appropriate by our standards anyway. People who speak the language, in which such a verse originally is, may add it to the wiki like any other appropriate verse. The only difference is that they have to translate some minor details (Such as character names, the verse name, attacks/techniques, etc.) on their own, but not the entire product.

Cryptozoi was deleted for this reason. Verses can be appropriate if there's at least two people willing to translate it, but only one person being capable/willing to translate it makes the statistics unreliable.

I tried to make it clear in the rule that it isn't just that it's untranslated, but that it's untranslated and so obscure that only one person can/will translate it.

If it's an English verse they can at least provide the original scans for everyone to interpret, if it's untranslated and they're the only person who can translate it then we're at the mercy of their translation.

 

[Sera_EX]

I remember, I was part of the Golovachev verse removal discussion. What a mess that was...

Though honestly, that's a much different branch than youtube profiles...isn't that what we're here for? I'm not saying it's free topic and definitely should've been addressed but...what was the conclusion about the YouTube part?

 

[Agnaa]

Those rules I wrote up weren't so much about YouTube profiles, just about the "obscurity" rules. While YouTube profiles do often involve issues with obscurity, if I'm writing a clarification of the obscurity rules I'd want to cover everything.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I did say "and other issues"

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think the topic has now shifted to what profiles are allowed to stay on the site. Since we're doing YouTube, we might as well cover them all for fairness sake. After all, the draft would be just an instruction page on what is acceptable according to our standards.

 

[Sera_EX]

I see, very well.

 

[The_Smashor]

Let's start with one of the stranger ones.

The Nameless One (CalebCity).

In what way is it confirmed that the seperate videos are connected?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I know there are a few reocurring characters for one