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The Computer Gods upgrade (Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou)

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StorytellingDemonKing

StorytellingDemonKing

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Relatively recently new information has come up that could potentially bring massive upgrades to the Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou (Demon King Daimaou) Verse in regards to The Computer Gods, which would affect and massively upgrade everyone.

Here is a blog with the information provided that will upgrade The Computer Gods to High 1-A:
vsbattles.fandom.com

StorytellingDemonKing/Sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Currently it's in a separate blog, which I don't mind, and likely others won't, but it can also be combined with the current blog if people want to.

But to make a small TL;DR
This CRT is in collaboration with @Larssx and @AKUTO123 so the credit goes to them for comming up with the idea and research. @Ultima_Reality agreed over on discord with the upgrades. @DontTalkDT gave suggestions on what should be included, however, his stance overall is still unknown so he should be called later on. (Though he seems to be busy with IRL stuff and other CRTs)

Vote count

Agree: @Ultima_Reality, @AKUTO123, @Larssx, @Georredannea15, @Barbar01, @Akagami_Shanks1, @NIK_FARIS, @Setsuna_tenma, @MehmetSalih123, @Godsatoshi23, @Akashachann, @Quintessence_PE

Disagree: @Shuradou, @Darksmash, @BestMGQScalerEver, @Ovy7

Neutral: @God900, @Nexp06
 
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Alright, so, to clarify:

I don't have a particularly strong stance on the thing with the Computer Gods. My opinions on this lean more strongly towards the Afterlife, in particular.

Basically, it seems that we currently interpret Afterlife Akuto as being able to make (And as transcending) every logically possible world. More specifically, anything that can be put into writing:

“No, you don’t really understand what it means for it to take on any form. Are you familiar with the concept of possible worlds?”

“Possible worlds?”

Akuto “recalled” a term he did not previously known as if scanning through his brain and retrieving the data.

“I see. It’s a thought experiment where you assume a world where anything is possible and thus say anything logically feasible can happen.”

“Yes. In other words, anything that can be described in text can happen. That also tells us the limits of this world: anything that cannot be described cannot happen.”

Yoshie then began explaining the concept of possible worlds which was difficult to grasp just from the database information.

For example, the two statements “an elephant flew through the sky” and “Hitler visited Paris in the year 2000 AD” were both impossible in reality, but they worked in writing. If elephants were flying creatures and if Hitler had not died, they could occur even in reality. They were true in a world that could have been. In that case, it became clear that near infinite possibilities were contained within the world. They could even be seen as existing as infinite parallel worlds.

“You will create all of those logically possible worlds,” said Yoshie as if giving an order.

“All of them?” he asked back in astonishment.

“What remains after that will be your own will. You will see all worlds and choose for yourself.”
Click to expand...

Given the rather strict definition of a "possible world" that's given there, then, provided higher cardinal numbers are mentioned as being existing ideas, I see no issue with the Afterlife scaling to High 1-A, since a space with arbitrarily large infinite cardinality would be included in the "All logically feasible worlds" that Akuto allegedly transcends. The fact that, right now, the profiles are willing to stretch that into Akuto being able to recreate even the infinite hierarchy above the Afterlife, also seems to back me up here.

That said, though, even if High 1-A Afterlife is accepted, I see no coherent reason for why there is, or can be, an infinite hierarchy below it (Which is something I brought up to the people behind this revision, off-site). If it encompasses and transcends all possible worlds, then, by definition, neither it nor the layers that exist above it are possible worlds. They'd exist above all possibility and as such not be in the range of things that Akuto can create at all.

So, put me under the "disagree" with regards to that bit of the proposals.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Alright, so, to clarify:

I don't have a particularly strong stance on the thing with the Computer Gods. My opinions on this lean more strongly towards the Afterlife, in particular.

Basically, it seems that we currently interpret Afterlife Akuto as being able to make (And as transcending) every logically possible world. More specifically, anything that can be put into writing:



Given the rather strict definition of a "possible world" that's given there, then, provided higher cardinal numbers are mentioned as being existing ideas, I see no issue with the Afterlife scaling to High 1-A, since a space with arbitrarily large infinite cardinality would be included in the "All logically feasible worlds" that Akuto allegedly transcends. The fact that, right now, the profiles are willing to stretch that into Akuto being able to recreate even the infinite hierarchy above the Afterlife, also seems to back me up here.

That said, though, even if High 1-A Afterlife is accepted, I see no coherent reason for why there is, or can be, an infinite hierarchy below it (Which is something I brought up to the people behind this revision, off-site). If it encompasses and transcends all possible worlds, then, by definition, neither it nor the layers that exist above it are possible worlds. They'd exist above all possibility and as such not be in the range of things that Akuto can create at all.

So, put me under the "disagree" with regards to that bit of the proposals.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't that be handled in a different CRT? This is mostly about the Computer Gods, and everything else is just adjacent to it as accepted now.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Alright, so, to clarify:

I don't have a particularly strong stance on the thing with the Computer Gods. My opinions on this lean more strongly towards the Afterlife, in particular.

Basically, it seems that we currently interpret Afterlife Akuto as being able to make (And as transcending) every logically possible world. More specifically, anything that can be put into writing:



Given the rather strict definition of a "possible world" that's given there, then, provided higher cardinal numbers are mentioned as being existing ideas, I see no issue with the Afterlife scaling to High 1-A, since a space with arbitrarily large infinite cardinality would be included in the "All logically feasible worlds" that Akuto allegedly transcends. The fact that, right now, the profiles are willing to stretch that into Akuto being able to recreate even the infinite hierarchy above the Afterlife, also seems to back me up here.

That said, though, even if High 1-A Afterlife is accepted, I see no coherent reason for why there is, or can be, an infinite hierarchy below it (Which is something I brought up to the people behind this revision, off-site). If it encompasses and transcends all possible worlds, then, by definition, neither it nor the layers that exist above it are possible worlds. They'd exist above all possibility and as such not be in the range of things that Akuto can create at all.

So, put me under the "disagree" with regards to that bit of the proposals.
Click to expand...
In fact, if you look at it, PC gods are already scaled to High 1A and there is an infinite hierarchy above them, naturally infinite possibilities include both the 1A+ structure of PC gods, but also the hierarchy starting from High 1A and going to infinity, naturally, according to what you say, Akuto, who transcend infinite possibilities, will be 0.
 
Also, since Ultima does not know the series and how the series is currently accepted by vsb, he may misunderstand some things, so I felt the need to make this explanation. Currently, the wiki accepts the existence of one infinite hierarchy and that tloi has transcendence in the value of an infinite hierarchy by default. Naturally, after High 1A PC gods, there will be an infinite base line in High 1A due to this infinite hierarchy, and Akuto who exceeds it will be 0, and even if we go from where Ultima says, the result will be the same and we will get a more precise 0.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Alright, so, to clarify:

I don't have a particularly strong stance on the thing with the Computer Gods. My opinions on this lean more strongly towards the Afterlife, in particular.

Basically, it seems that we currently interpret Afterlife Akuto as being able to make (And as transcending) every logically possible world. More specifically, anything that can be put into writing:



Given the rather strict definition of a "possible world" that's given there, then, provided higher cardinal numbers are mentioned as being existing ideas, I see no issue with the Afterlife scaling to High 1-A, since a space with arbitrarily large infinite cardinality would be included in the "All logically feasible worlds" that Akuto allegedly transcends. The fact that, right now, the profiles are willing to stretch that into Akuto being able to recreate even the infinite hierarchy above the Afterlife, also seems to back me up here.

That said, though, even if High 1-A Afterlife is accepted, I see no coherent reason for why there is, or can be, an infinite hierarchy below it (Which is something I brought up to the people behind this revision, off-site). If it encompasses and transcends all possible worlds, then, by definition, neither it nor the layers that exist above it are possible worlds. They'd exist above all possibility and as such not be in the range of things that Akuto can create at all.

So, put me under the "disagree" with regards to that bit of the proposals.
Click to expand...
Actually the OP is focussed on the PC gods only, but if Afterlife scales to H-1A as you say, Tloi and Akuto reach 0.(This is the reason why Tloi jumps from 1-A to H 1-A.) I won't touch much on the other things you said because they will be the subject of another revision, but for this revision, this is the only part that interests us for now.(PC gods)
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Alright, so, to clarify:

I don't have a particularly strong stance on the thing with the Computer Gods. My opinions on this lean more strongly towards the Afterlife, in particular.

Basically, it seems that we currently interpret Afterlife Akuto as being able to make (And as transcending) every logically possible world. More specifically, anything that can be put into writing:



Given the rather strict definition of a "possible world" that's given there, then, provided higher cardinal numbers are mentioned as being existing ideas, I see no issue with the Afterlife scaling to High 1-A, since a space with arbitrarily large infinite cardinality would be included in the "All logically feasible worlds" that Akuto allegedly transcends. The fact that, right now, the profiles are willing to stretch that into Akuto being able to recreate even the infinite hierarchy above the Afterlife, also seems to back me up here.

That said, though, even if High 1-A Afterlife is accepted, I see no coherent reason for why there is, or can be, an infinite hierarchy below it (Which is something I brought up to the people behind this revision, off-site). If it encompasses and transcends all possible worlds, then, by definition, neither it nor the layers that exist above it are possible worlds. They'd exist above all possibility and as such not be in the range of things that Akuto can create at all.

So, put me under the "disagree" with regards to that bit of the proposals.
Click to expand...
You're completely forgetting the scale of the PC Gods with what you're saying
And yes, if we forget the PC Gods, Akuto will 0 at most with what you really said.
Can we talk about the PC Gods, which is the main topic of this crt?
Because you haven't given a reason for not accepting PC Gods
If the part about PC Gods doesn't fit your head, let me give you a brief explanation.
"And thus, they can contemplate infinity."
They can think about these things, and the infinite they talk about is the infinite cardinal part we use for H1-A "I don’t mean infinity in the numerical sense they can contemplate infinitely dense infinities"
Proof that they can turn these thoughts into universes "And it is thought itself that creates the universe. Once again, I don’t mean the objective universe."
And remember that these are unobservable universes.
Firstly, let's look at what the author says about whether this part gives H1-A or not
"It's not about infinity like a number sequence."
This shows that they are not talking about the infinity of a one cardinal.
"It's about infinity with infinitely dense cardinality [with infinite cardinal numbers]."
This shows they refer to an infinite cardinal numbers.
With this part, PC Gods qualify for 1-A+.
In addition, H1-A because they sees all these universes as fiction (Also they were created only by their own thoughts).
 
Yeah, I disagree. Not much makes sense here, lol.

First of all, using the WoG is meh and needless—especially when it comes from battlebaording loaded questions—as he himself says many things that contradict each other. In fact, he even admitted that he doesn't remember much of the story.

Besides, the sentence doesn't really make much sense either if you interpret it as literal cardinality (which the author admitted he knows nothing about and is incorrect so i dunno why you taking his words too seriously), moreso when you consider the complete context of what 濃度 is supposed to mean in the verse, I.e., the heavy and light nature (how advanced and good the topic and quality of the story is) of the story, not some different level of power or some infinite jumps.
“A world where I’m the hero, I said. One with as low a story density as possible
Click to expand...
But as I said at the beginning, it took me until the death of my ex-girlfriend to realize my destiny. Living in a world with a low story density had given me what amounted to amnesia.
Click to expand...
I need to elaborate more about what I mean by “lightness”.

Normally, the word would refer to something superficial. Something that didn’t make you think. But in this case, I mean something virtual.

First, the main characters had left their physical bodies behind. By this I mean that they were capable of surviving physical shocks that would kill an ordinary human, and sometimes would display superhuman powers. For this reason, the characters had personalities that were extremely slanted in one direction or another, and seemed inhuman.

The story was written to have a happy ending, and even if there was some unhappiness, it was there for a reason. Sometimes, to avoid an unhappy story, the characters wouldn’t age, and their minds wouldn’t mature. When I tried to write these “light” stories, the unpleasant feeling was always there.

So what if I tried to write a “heavy” story? I tried it, just to get my mind off things, and the more “virtual” it became (that is, even if the characters seemed real, if the story was still fictional) the more the “crazy monster” would be waiting for me.

It was clear that this was an obstacle set by the stories themselves.

I felt like I’d seen the core essence of stories. This was a story written to destroy stories, and it was clear that the stories were fighting back. Looking back, there had been many obstacles in my way up until this point, but all of them were caused by the stories controlling my memories and actions. This goes for how books sell, too.

People are ashamed of “light” stories. But the lightest stories are the ones they love. Many people buy light stories in secret, stories that satisfy their base urges. The heavy stories, on the other hand, are the ones that are said to capture the essence of humanity, and those who write them are praised and called “intellectuals”. And even the most impossible stories are allowed to be believed if they become the text of a religion.
Click to expand...
And secondly, that statement about computer gods, being honest, is just an incoherent buzzword; it's merely referring to their ability to traverse time that is "infinitely" distant from the human perspective, i.e., time travel, and their desire to undergo a transformation by experiencing death and being reborn as life forms in a different universe.
“It is a bit difficult to explain. The gods have a will of their own, but they do not possess a body.”

Hiroshi understood that much.

“That is why they do not possess thought processes centered on a body. They are a contradictory existence that think despite having no true form to think with. It is true they have computer circuits. However, no one knows how many circuits are needed before thought is born. All we know is that a will is born when enough circuits are brought together. You can think of it as similar to how we do not know where one’s will is located in the human brain. Their non-body focused thought processes leave them with no distinction between themselves and the outside world, and so they are able to think in terms of the infinite. I do not mean the mathematical concept of infinity. I mean an infinitely dense infinity. And this means they can arrive at the infinite past for living creatures. The bodiless gods can arrive at the thought processes of single-celled life forms. That is the same as the birth of life and the birth of thought. And thoughts themselves create a universe. Not a scientifically observable universe, mind you. There is a theory saying that this world could have been created five minutes ago and we can never prove otherwise if our memories are false. However, that theory only holds when one has a physical body. Bodiless thoughts invalidate that theory. In other words, the universe exists and time is absolutely irreversible.”

Hiroshi did not understand most of what Bouichirou said.

“What exactly do you mean?”

“The gods wish to die so they can be born as life forms in a different universe.
Click to expand...
And lastly, VPS is just a pocket dimension...? It's designed that way because it can be easily altered and essentially programmed to suit your preferences, like a video game, for example. This is exactly what happens in the plot of Volume 7. They aren't actually fictional or anything, lol.
 
Shuradou said:
Yeah, I disagree. Not much makes sense here, lol.

First of all, using the WoG is meh and needless—especially when it comes from battlebaording loaded questions—as he himself says many things that contradict each other. In fact, he even admitted that he doesn't remember much of the story.
Click to expand...
Nothing wrong with using WoG when the whole intent has been about set theory since it was written, he just confirms how it's interpreted.
Shuradou said:
Besides, the sentence doesn't really make much sense either if you interpret it as literal cardinality (which the author admitted he knows nothing about and is incorrect so i dunno why you taking his words too seriously), moreso when you consider the complete context of what 濃度 is supposed to mean in the verse, I.e., the heavy and light nature (how advanced and good the topic and quality of the story is) of the story, not some different level of power or some infinite jumps.
Click to expand...
Already addressed in the blog. It can be written as cardinality and that's how it's written - as him (the author) literally stating it.
Shuradou said:
And secondly, that statement about computer gods, being honest, is just an incoherent buzzword; it's merely referring to their ability to traverse time that is "infinitely" distant from the human perspective, i.e., time travel, and their desire to undergo a transformation by experiencing death and being reborn as life forms in a different universe.
Click to expand...
Not really, no. Sure, it's about traversing time, but it also is generally more so about what the Computer Gods are and what they can do. This doesn't affect anything.
Shuradou said:
And lastly, VPS is just a pocket dimension...? It's designed that way because it can be easily altered and essentially programmed to suit your preferences, like a video game, for example. This is exactly what happens in the plot of Volume 7. They aren't actually fictional or anything, lol.
Click to expand...
They can be. They are Computer generated universes infinite in size. This also doesn't address anything.

Anyway, it seems your only problem is about what the text says and how it should be interpreted. And thats addressed in the blog.
 
Shuradou said:
Yeah, I disagree. Not much makes sense here, lol.

First of all, using the WoG is meh and needless—especially when it comes from battlebaording loaded questions—as he himself says many things that contradict each other. In fact, he even admitted that he doesn't remember much of the story.

Besides, the sentence doesn't really make much sense either if you interpret it as literal cardinality (which the author admitted he knows nothing about and is incorrect so i dunno why you taking his words too seriously), moreso when you consider the complete context of what 濃度 is supposed to mean in the verse, I.e., the heavy and light nature (how advanced and good the topic and quality of the story is) of the story, not some different level of power or some infinite jumps.



And secondly, that statement about computer gods, being honest, is just an incoherent buzzword; it's merely referring to their ability to traverse time that is "infinitely" distant from the human perspective, i.e., time travel, and their desire to undergo a transformation by experiencing death and being reborn as life forms in a different universe.

And lastly, VPS is just a pocket dimension...? It's designed that way because it can be easily altered and essentially programmed to suit your preferences, like a video game, for example. This is exactly what happens in the plot of Volume 7. They aren't actually fictional or anything, lol.
Click to expand...
In the literal sense of the word, this is already said in the novel and the author supports this 2 times. Let's see what we have now.
Novel 1 says infinitely great cardinals
2. The author says that he uses set theory
3. The author once again states that he uses set theory
4. The author says that the word nodō means cardinal.
5 .this is what makes sense in context
And what do we have against it?
Your head canon assumptions.
The author may say that he does not remember everything, but what you say does not make any sense where it is already in the novel and the author supports it...
 
Darksmash said:
I agree with Shuradou. The author literally says he has 0 clues about set theory.
Click to expand...
Yet if what is said in the story aligns with our tiering standards, it can still be used. Even if he has little understanding of set theory, it's enough provided for an upgrade atm. Also, he generally has no problem with people having any set theory interpretations out of this, he even said if the fans can figure it out it's usable.
 
Shuradou said:
Yeah, I disagree. Not much makes sense here, lol.

First of all, using the WoG is meh and needless—especially when it comes from battlebaording loaded questions—as he himself says many things that contradict each other. In fact, he even admitted that he doesn't remember much of the story.

Besides, the sentence doesn't really make much sense either if you interpret it as literal cardinality (which the author admitted he knows nothing about and is incorrect so i dunno why you taking his words too seriously), moreso when you consider the complete context of what 濃度 is supposed to mean in the verse, I.e., the heavy and light nature (how advanced and good the topic and quality of the story is) of the story, not some different level of power or some infinite jumps.



And secondly, that statement about computer gods, being honest, is just an incoherent buzzword; it's merely referring to their ability to traverse time that is "infinitely" distant from the human perspective, i.e., time travel, and their desire to undergo a transformation by experiencing death and being reborn as life forms in a different universe.

And lastly, VPS is just a pocket dimension...? It's designed that way because it can be easily altered and essentially programmed to suit your preferences, like a video game, for example. This is exactly what happens in the plot of Volume 7. They aren't actually fictional or anything, lol.
Click to expand...
1- What the author is talking about here is the infinite cardinal line, that is, the section up to Aleph omega. This is supported by the verse itself.

2- I don't know on what basis you infer that expressions belonging to the PC gods are "buzzwords", but they certainly are not. The verse does not use any fancy language and the dream hierarchy and infinite hierarchies are mentioned a lot. Yes, what you say is also mentioned, but this does not affect theOP.

3- If these are pocket dimensions lol you would have to downgraded the verse from the currently 1-A and H1-A tier but that will never happen

It's overguys, downgrade the verse from Tier 1. These are really just pocket dimensions not transcendent hierarchies.
 
I mean if the author says something outside of the material about and it and what he said doesn't really fit in with how it was used in the story then it'd be a death of the author scenario or whatever is similar. Agreeing with Shuradou about WoG usage too.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
I mean if the author says something outside of the material about and it and what he said doesn't really fit in with how it was used in the story then it'd be death of the author. Agreeing with Shuradou about WoG usage too.
Click to expand...
Literally everything the author has said is in the blog along how the same info is found in-verse. There is no death to the author here lol
 
StorytellingDemonKing said:
Yet if what is said in the story aligns with our tiering standards, it can still be used. Even if he has little understanding of set theory, it's enough provided for an upgrade atm. Also, he generally has no problem with people having any set theory interpretations out of this, he even said if the fans can figure it out it's usable.
Click to expand...
Yet the interpretation that the word for "density" means "cardinality"(which makes 0 sense with the context of the story btw) supposedly comes from the author. You can't have your own cake and eat it too.

But I guess arguing about it is useless.
 
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