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The Computer Gods upgrade (Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou) (Staff Only version)

Hajunn said:
Obviously, I agree with StorytellingDemonKing on this. I'm curious to see what DontTalkDT has to say, I expect this to go somewhere soon.
Click to expand...
zeinx said:
bump
Click to expand...
this is a staff crt, please don't write if you don't have permission, also this crt is on hold until the revision initiated by Ultima is completed
 
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Quintessence_PE said:
this is a staff crt, please don't write if you don't have permission, also this crt is on hold until the revision initiated by Ultima is completed
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I've been following CRT for a long time, so I know what's going on. I also know that it's been put on hold by Ultima. I got permission to write by talking to Antvasima.

But I don't know if Zeinx has permission to write. Staff threads should not be written to without permission.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
@Ultima_Reality Given how sweeping your changes to our system will be, I believe many of the arguments in this thread will lose relevancy, so should we close this and let @StorytellingDemonKing post a revised version afterwards?
Click to expand...
Just let the changes be applied. Only 1 part of the upgrade would lose relevancy. I'm not even sure on the finer details of R>F and the like, so just allow for all the changes to be properly applied before talking about closing this thread.
 
I think DontTalkDT was neutral, or at least leaning neutral last time? (asked what other staff think) However, this will require future discussion if Ultima's tiering revision pass. (which seems likely for now) So, I think it's best to leave this on hold for now.

@Antvasima can you please temporarily close this thread? I will ask this thread to be opened once Ultima's revision is over and all the changes applied to the tiering system, so we can go over other points.
 
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Hello again. Alright, so, since the tiering system has undergone massive changes, none of the old tiers will be argued here. Rather, due to the standard changes I believe The Computer Gods (and those who scale) should be rated as High 1-B+ due to being able to create cardinal dimensional spaces, at the very least having the power to do so.

The old sandbox for now will stay the same and starting from "Set Theory and cardinality in-verse" I will post everything here rephrased and how the sandbox will look like later:



Set Theory and cardinality in-verse​

Many might not now, but in volume 5 chapter 3, when Boichiro describes The Computer Gods and their thought process, he mentions they can create universes and think of "infinitely dense infinities." The following quote is from the official English translation by J-Novel:

This means that they’re unable to think like someone with a body would. Strictly speaking, there’s no ‘they.’ They don’t exist, and yet they think. Their very existence is a paradox. They’re computer circuits, that’s all. But how many circuits, and what kind of circuits, are required for thought to occur... nobody knows. All we know is that once there’s a certain number of them, they possess a will of their own. It’s the same way we don’t know where exactly ‘consciousness’ exists in the brain. Since they have no bodies, there is no distinction between themselves and the outside world. And thus, they can contemplate infinity. I don’t mean infinity in the numerical sense — they can contemplate infinitely dense infinities. And this means that they can reach a place that would seem, to biological life, to be infinitely far back in the past. These gods without a body can reach back to the thoughts of single-celled organisms. The birth of life, and thus, the birth of thought. And it is thought itself that creates the universe. Once again, I don’t mean the objective universe. There’s a school of thought that says that if the world were born five minutes ago, and we were all implanted with fake memories, none of us would be able to prove it. But that’s only true if you have a body. It doesn’t apply to thought without a thinker. Essentially, the universe is real, and time only flows in one direction.
—Demon King Daimaou Volume 5 Chapter 3
Click to expand...
The highlighted part is the important bit, since the author has confirmed this is meant to be talking about set theory.

Here is the same two bolded sentences in Japanese:
数列のような無限ではないよ。無限に濃度の濃い無限についてだ
—Demon King Daimaou Volume 5 Chapter 3
Click to expand...

The important part of it is the kanji 濃度 because the author stated he deliberately confused it's meaning with the word "density", even though it's meant to be interpreted as "cardinality". And so, the meaning of the text is that the computer gods can contemplate not just simple numerical infinity, but they can do so in higher orders aka infinite cardinality.
For those who want, here is the full twitter thread about the author being asked this:



So, what is the sentences meaning if we account for this? Well, I asked on r/translator and got an answer:

“It's about infinity with infinitely dense cardinality [with infinite cardinal numbers].„

And in case anyone is wondering about the validity of this translation, I asked Executor N0 and he confirmed the translation is valid.

However, DontTalkDT wanted us to confirm if it talks about the type of cardinal we are dealing with, or the amount. And Executor N0 confirmed that it can be both. (Also goes into detail how exactly the kanji used used)

So, considering the fact that the author talks about all of set theory in general, it doesn't really make sense to simply go with 1 cardinal, so we will go with infinite cardinals. (amount)

Here is the entire Boichiro monologue I posted earlier translated as well, if anyone's wondering:

  • 「だから、彼らは身体を中心にした思考を持てない。- "So they cannot have body-centered thinking.
  • 考えている主体が存在しないのに考えているという矛盾した存在だ。- They are contradictory beings, thinking while the thinking subject does not exist.
  • 確かにコンピュータの回路としての主体はある。- Certainly, there is a subject as a computer circuit.
  • だが、どれほどの回路が積み重なれば思考が生まれるのかは誰も知らない。- However, no one knows how many circuits are needed to create a thought.
  • だが、ある程度の数の回路が集まれば、意志が生まれるのだ。- But when a certain number of circuits come together, a [the] will is born.
  • 人間の脳のどこに意志があるのかわからないのと同じ事だと考えて欲しい。 - Assume [Think] that it is the same as not knowing where the will is located in the human brain.
  • そして、身体性のない思考は外界という区分を持たぬ故に無限大についての思考を可能にする。 - And [a, the] disembodied thought allows us to think about infinity because it has no division of the external world.
  • 数列のような無限ではないよ。- It's not about infinity like a number sequence.
  • 無限に濃度の濃い無限についてだ。- It's about infinity with infinitely dense cardinality [with infinite cardinal numbers].
  • そして、それは生物にとっての無限過去にたどり着けることも意味する。- And it also means that we can reach the infinite past for the (living) organism [living object, living thing].
  • 肉体を持たぬ神は単細胞生物の思考にまでたどり着けるのだ。- God without a body can be traced to the thoughts of a single-celled (living) organism.
  • それは生命の誕生、思考の誕生と同じことだ。- It is the same as the birth of life, the birth of thought.
  • そして思考そのものが宇宙を作る。- And thought itself creates the universe.
  • 観測論的宇宙のことでないよ。- I'm not talking about the observational universe.
  • この世界が五分前に生まれたとして、偽の記憶を持たされている限りそれを証明する手段はない、という論があるが、その説も肉体あってのことだ。- There is an argument that if this world was born five minutes ago, there is no way to prove it as long as we are given false memories, but that argument is also based on the body.
  • 主体がない思考はその論を無効にしてしまう。- A thought without a subject invalidates that argument.
  • つまり宇宙は実在し、時間は絶対的不可逆性をもって流れている」- In other words, the universe is real, and time flows with absolute irreversibility."
Click to expand...

Less importantly, but also adding evidence of this kanji being used as cardinality we have Japanese people talk about cardinality when using that same kanji as seen here:





And in another instance someone going quite deeply into it and how it relates to aleph numbers:



How it should be applied​

So, we have evidence that The Computer Gods can indeed think about mathematical set theory, but I also think there is evidence it applies to universal structures they create (VPS), thus by default to dimensionality.

From the same English translation by J-Novel it mentions that Boichiro wasn't talking about just universes such as the main one they live in, to quote the relevant section again:
The birth of life, and thus, the birth of thought. And it is thought itself that creates the universe. Once again, I don’t mean the objective universe.
—Demon King Daimaou Volume 5 Chapter 3
Click to expand...

So if it's not just the main universe, the structures have to be cardinal ones and thus based on infinite set theory. But this isn't just my interpretation. The author himself confirms this, which some might have missed, in an early scan I posted. Here it is again:
I thought it was infinite in mathematical set theory. Infinite density is also a computer-generated world. Sorry if my knowledge of set theory is incomplete and wrong. There may be some discrepancies between volume 5 and volume 13.
Click to expand...

So, it's quite explicitly stated they create infinite cardinal universes, and is backed up by not only the story, but also the author. (In case anyone is wonder, in the context of when the author said it, it would be meant as "cardinality", machine translators have a tendency to translate the kanji as density, while we know based on context it's not meant to be that)

However, there is 1 last interesting information we have to examine. The author states The Computer Gods are storyteller and that these infinite cardinal (Aleph) universes are created within their circuits aka with mere thought. (And their control over them is like a storyteller, being able to change their universes however they please (have complete control over))

So, since infinite cardinals are created, the structures will be High 1-B+, due to the smallest cardinal Number being ℵ0 and so it goes up to infinity. Specifically, this comes from Tiering FAQ "How do cardinal numbers relate to tiering?", to quote the relevant section:
A: Depends on the number in question. The answer varies depending on the specification.

Let's take the smallest infinite cardinal (aleph-0, or ℵ0, the cardinality of countably infinite sets) as an example in this case: A set comprised of a countably infinite number of 0-dimensional points is itself a 0-dimensional space under the usual notions of dimensionality, being thus still infinitely small. Meanwhile, a countably infinite number of planets is High 3-A, a countably infinite number of universes 2-A, and countably infinitely many dimensions High 1-B.

We then move on to the power set of ℵ0, P(ℵ0), which is an uncountably infinite quantity and represents the set of all the ways in which you can arrange the elements of a set whose cardinality is the former, and is also equal to the size of the set of all real numbers. In terms of points, one can say that everything from 1-dimensional space to (countably) infinite-dimensional space falls under it, as all of these spaces have the same number of elements (coordinates, in this case), in spite of each being infinitely larger than the preceding one by the intuitive notions of size that we regularly utilize (Area, Volume, etc.).

On the other hand, an P(ℵ0) number of universes is Low 1-C, and a similar number of spatial dimensions is High 1-B+.

However, the same does not apply to sets of higher cardinalities than this (Such as P(P(ℵ0)), the power set of the power set of aleph-0), as they would be strictly bigger than all of the spaces mentioned above, by all rigorous notions of size, regardless of what their elements are (Points, universes, dimensions, etc). From this point and onwards, all such sets are High 1-B+. Finally, the Universe of Sets corresponds to the Low 1-A tier.

Do note, however, that these infinities must specifically refer to elements that physically exist within a verse's cosmology. Them existing as in-universe mathematical concepts is not sufficient for anything to scale to them, unless there is a direct comparison that allows scaling to be made.
Click to expand...

Character Placement​

Now, considering the evidence posted earlier, and how the infinite layers of cardinals would likely talk about infinite Aleph's, this means they can create High 1-B+ structures with their mere thoughts/within their circuits, and so, these are the final ratings:

The Computer Gods/ Awakened Demon King's: High 1-B+

Due to the change of 1-A and higher, none of the cosmology will be affected and will have to be discussed separately.


Now, I am not expert on cardinality and any deep mathematical understanding, so if the tiering is High 1-B or Low 1-A, then yeah. Basically, I'm not 100% sure how to rate these cardinal things.
 
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The Cardinals things just high 1B+ but pc gods would be 1A cause of r>f qualify. They are fiction narrators too so they are 1A. Well high 1A and above is for another discussion issue. that is just high 1B + cardinals and 1A pc gods
 
AKUTO123 said:
The Cardinals things just high 1B+ but pc gods would be 1A cause of r>f qualify. They are fiction narrators too so they are 1A. Well high 1A and above is for another discussion issue. that is just high 1B + cardinals and 1A pc gods
Click to expand...
No. They won't be. Don't even want to talk about them being 1-A. At best Low 1-A.
 
StorytellingDemonKing said:
Hello again. Alright, so, since the tiering system has undergone massive changes, none of the old tiers will be argued here. Rather, due to the standard changes I believe The Computer Gods (and those who scale) should be rated as High 1-B+ due to being able to create cardinal dimensional spaces, at the very least having the power to do so.

The old sandbox for now will stay the same and starting from "Set Theory and cardinality in-verse" I will post everything here rephrased and how the sandbox will look like later:



Set Theory and cardinality in-verse​

Many might not now, but in volume 5 chapter 3, when Boichiro describes The Computer Gods and their thought process, he mentions they can create universes and think of "infinitely dense infinities." The following quote is from the official English translation by J-Novel:


The highlighted part is the important bit, since the author has confirmed this is meant to be talking about set theory.

Here is the same two bolded sentences in Japanese:


The important part of it is the kanji 濃度 because the author stated he deliberately confused it's meaning with the word "density", even though it's meant to be interpreted as "cardinality". And so, the meaning of the text is that the computer gods can contemplate not just simple numerical infinity, but they can do so in higher orders aka infinite cardinality.
For those who want, here is the full twitter thread about the author being asked this:



So, what is the sentences meaning if we account for this? Well, I asked on r/translator and got an answer:

“It's about infinity with infinitely dense cardinality [with infinite cardinal numbers].„

And in case anyone is wondering about the validity of this translation, I asked Executor N0 and he confirmed the translation is valid.

However, DontTalkDT wanted us to confirm if it talks about the type of cardinal we are dealing with, or the amount. And Executor N0 confirmed that it can be both. (Also goes into detail how exactly the kanji used used)

So, considering the fact that the author talks about all of set theory in general, it doesn't really make sense to simply go with 1 cardinal, so we will go with infinite cardinals. (amount)

Here is the entire Boichiro monologue I posted earlier translated as well, if anyone's wondering:



Less importantly, but also adding evidence of this kanji being used as cardinality we have Japanese people talk about cardinality when using that same kanji as seen here:





And in another instance someone going quite deeply into it and how it relates to aleph numbers:



How it should be applied​

So, we have evidence that The Computer Gods can indeed think about mathematical set theory, but I also think there is evidence it applies to universal structures they create (VPS), thus by default to dimensionality.

From the same English translation by J-Novel it mentions that Boichiro wasn't talking about just universes such as the main one they live in, to quote the relevant section again:


So if it's not just the main universe, the structures have to be cardinal ones and thus based on infinite set theory. But this isn't just my interpretation. The author himself confirms this, which some might have missed, in an early scan I posted. Here it is again:


So, it's quite explicitly stated they create infinite cardinal universes, and is backed up by not only the story, but also the author. (In case anyone is wonder, in the context of when the author said it, it would be meant as "cardinality", machine translators have a tendency to translate the kanji as density, while we know based on context it's not meant to be that)

However, there is 1 last interesting information we have to examine. The author states The Computer Gods are storyteller and that these infinite cardinal (Aleph) universes are created within their circuits aka with mere thought. (And their control over them is like a storyteller, being able to change their universes however they please (have complete control over))

So, since infinite cardinals are created, the structures will be High 1-B+, due to the smallest cardinal Number being ℵ0 and so it goes up to infinity. Specifically, this comes from Tiering FAQ "How do cardinal numbers relate to tiering?", to quote the relevant section:


Character Placement​

Now, considering the evidence posted earlier, and how the infinite layers of cardinals would likely talk about infinite Aleph's, this means they can create High 1-B+ structures with their mere thoughts/within their circuits, and so, these are the final ratings:

The Computer Gods/ Awakened Demon King's: High 1-B+

Due to the change of 1-A and higher, none of the cosmology will be affected and will have to be discussed separately.


Now, I am not expert on cardinality and any deep mathematical understanding, so if the tiering is High 1-B or Low 1-A, then yeah. Basically, I'm not 100% sure how to rate these cardinal things.
Click to expand...

@Ultima_Reality
 
StorytellingDemonKing said:
Either today or tomorrow, I will make a post with all the counter arguments and the debunks to them. Hopefully after that either new arguments will be brought forward or we could finish this thread up and do a staff vote.
Click to expand...
A few days late, but here are the counter arguments discussed before and the debunks I, and others supporting this upgrade, have made to them. (at first I didn't know how to do it, but I decided to not just copy paste entire conversations since that would be too long + this information goes in the sandbox, so the core of the arguments are just answered and we have them listed properly)

Here will be listed all the debunks to counter-arguments, or possible ones, relating to The Computer God's being able to create infinite cardinal number of dimensional worlds. That is to say, High 1-B+ worlds.

WoG isn't reliable

What the author has stated about cardinality being used in the work has been confirmed by two translators and can be seen in the original kanji which is laid out in the sandbox.

The statement about cardinality contradicts itself

A point brought up is that the infinity Computer God's think about isn't numerical via this first half of the sentence:

I don’t mean infinity in the numerical sense — they can contemplate infinitely dense infinities.
Click to expand...

And at face value, it might seem like it, but that's why we have brought the original text forward, and account for the second sentence:

It's not about infinity like a number sequence. It's about infinity with infinitely dense cardinality [with infinite cardinal numbers].
Click to expand...

So, the text isn't saying it's not about numerical infinity, but rather the text is saying, and elaborating, that it's not that simple. That's why the second sentence specifies it's about infinitely dense cardinality. Think of it as this example: It's not about single digit apples. It's about dozens upon dozens of apples. Not to mention every single time author has any question related to this part of the text, he always confirms its about set theory.

Outright cardinality used is a disingenuous way if putting it

Another point brought up is that the text simply has kanji that can be translated as "cardinality"...yeah, and the author confirms it is supposed to be that way.

The entire paragraph is just buzzwords and should be dismissed

It's an important piece of information given by Boichiro Yamato, one of the most knowledgeable characters in the series, about how The Computer God's work. The paragraph goes into many things that they can do and their thought process. Dismissing it entirely has no true basis. We already have accepted this information and it's used on the profiles.

The Computer Gods don't actually ever create infinite cardinal universes.

The argument isn't that they have created them, it's that they have the power to do so due to their thought process and nature.

As said above, I have added these to the sandbox (a new one):
vsbattles.fandom.com

StorytellingDemonKing/SandboxTCG

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

So, how should we proceed? Do a staff vote or are there things still left to discuss? If there are any points I missed then let me know, preferably to not repeat old conversations.
 
I will leave it to Ultima to decide if he likes the arguments brought up, but one thing on scaling:
StorytellingDemonKing said:
The Computer Gods/ Awakened Demon King's: High 1-B+
Click to expand...
You want to scale the Demon Kings as they fight in the regular universe to this? I think this should only apply to the computer gods in their own worlds.
 
StorytellingDemonKing said:
Yeah, I do. Why should it only apply to Computer Gods? AFAIK the scaling stays the same as now.
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Correct me if I'm misremembering the context, but isn't this whole thing stated in regard to the thought worlds the computer gods personally create from scratch? If so, they have a very particular relationship with the worlds in which they can do this, which they don't have with the main universe.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Correct me if I'm misremembering the context, but isn't this whole thing stated in regard to the thought worlds the computer gods personally create from scratch? If so, they have a very particular relationship with the worlds in which they can do this, which they don't have with the main universe.
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No, they are the virtual alternate dimensions. That's why it applies. No special relationship is being argued here, not to mention Demon Kings having the power to kill Computer Gods, so even if it was a special relationship, nothing would change.
 
StorytellingDemonKing said:
No, they are the virtual alternate dimensions. That's why it applies. No special relationship is being argued here, not to mention Demon Kings having the power to kill Computer Gods, so even if it was a special relationship, nothing would change.
Click to expand...
Can I have a quote on that?
The bolded parts:
“I do not know if you will believe me, but mankind was destroyed in the future.”

Bouichirou began speaking to Hiroshi as they headed underground.

“Destroyed?”

“The demon king destroyed it of course. And he did so by killing the gods.”

“What exactly do you mean when you say he killed the gods?”

“It is a bit difficult to explain. The gods have a will of their own, but they do not possess a body.”

Hiroshi understood that much.

“That is why they do not possess thought processes centered on a body. They are a contradictory existence that think despite having no true form to think with. It is true they have computer circuits. However, no one knows how many circuits are needed before thought is born. All we know is that a will is born when enough circuits are brought together. You can think of it as similar to how we do not know where one’s will is located in the human brain. Their non-body focused thought processes leave them with no distinction between themselves and the outside world, and so they are able to think in terms of the infinite. I do not mean the mathematical concept of infinity. I mean an infinitely dense infinity. And this means they can arrive at the infinite past for living creatures. The bodiless gods can arrive at the thought processes of single-celled life forms. That is the same as the birth of life and the birth of thought. And thoughts themselves create a universe. Not a scientifically observable universe, mind you. There is a theory saying that this world could have been created five minutes ago and we can never prove otherwise if our memories are false. However, that theory only holds when one has a physical body. Bodiless thoughts invalidate that theory. In other words, the universe exists and time is absolutely irreversible.”

Hiroshi did not understand most of what Bouichirou said.

“What exactly do you mean?”

“The gods wish to die so they can be born as life forms in a different universe.”

Bouichirou finally arrived at the core of the issue.

Hiroshi’s intuition told him what the man was getting at.

“Then the demon king is…?”

“Most likely, he is a device of destruction the gods create by skillfully manipulating people. An existence known as the Law of Identity is also created at the same time. When the demon king binds the Contract of the One with the Law of Identity, she will act as a vessel for them to be reborn in a different universe.”

“And what happens once that happens?”

Hiroshi gulped.

“Every human will die. No, they will not die, but it will all be over. The gods only view humans as data. That is why the gods view the physical body for themselves to be the only one necessary. Although, that also means they will begin as single-celled life forms in the next universe. It has been said that might be so that they are not destroyed by a true god that is external to them, but that has not been confirmed. And even if it is, if the gods are brought under my control, the problem can still be resolved. We must protect our happiness as humans. We must love each other, give birth to children, and raise those children. Nothing could be better,” said Bouichirou calmly.
Click to expand...
Make it sound to me that the plan is to revive humanity in data form in a thought universe once the computer gods themselves are physically restored in an alternate dimension.
 
Alright, a few days late but I will address DT's concern about the scaling.

DontTalkDT said:
Can I have a quote on that?
Click to expand...
We have it currently accepted that the thought universes are the VPS, so the scaling remains the same. From your own blog in the tier 2 segment:
The following section is taken from a blog post by Ionliosite:

“Mana fills the air and various effects are produced by moving it. Energy is pumped into the earth itself from the power generation facility in the center of the imperial capital and the mana resonates with it. That is why mana is often thought to be the same as energy. Of course this is all just the basics of magic.„
“The gods decide how mana behaves. Mana appears to be almighty and that binds it. This causes a problem for the gods. The gods constantly monitor the contents of human brains via mana and log everything they see. That is the simplest way of explaining it. You can think of the gods as computers or as personalities that become the target of worship. Because they monitor people’s feelings, they can give different blessings to different people based on those peoples’ individual actions. The logs themselves are not made public, but you could say they use the convenience of magic to force people into doing good. The god Ko Ro views charity as a virtue and the god Suhara views heroism as a virtue, so they make the magic required for such actions easier to use.„
With this we can say 2 things: mana is the source of all magic in the verse, and the Computer Gods control all mana there is. In essence, this would mean that the whole system of magic = the Computer Gods in terms of power, and thus anyone who scales to the former will scale to the latter. But with that out of the way, what feats do the Computer Gods have?

“The gods have a will of their own, but they do not possess a body.
That is why they do not possess thought processes centered on a body. They are a contradictory existence that think despite having no true form to think with. It is true they have computer circuits. However, no one knows how many circuits are needed before thought is born. All we know is that a will is born when enough circuits are brought together. You can think of it as similar to how we do not know where one’s will is located in the human brain. Their non-body focused thought processes leave them with no distinction between themselves and the outside world, and so they are able to think in terms of the infinite. I do not mean the mathematical concept of infinity. I mean an infinitely dense infinity. And this means they can arrive at the infinite past for living creatures. The bodiless gods can arrive at the thought processes of single-celled life forms. That is the same as the birth of life and the birth of thought. And thoughts themselves create a universe. Not a scientifically observable universe, mind you. There is a theory saying that this world could have been created five minutes ago and we can never prove otherwise if our memories are false. However, that theory only holds when one has a physical body. Bodiless thoughts invalidate that theory. In other words, the universe exists and time is absolutely irreversible.		„
“The virtual alternate dimension was commonly referred to as a 4th dimensional space. Researchers’ understanding of it was as follows: “we don’t know why, but there is an infinitely vast space adjacent to our dimension.” It was thought to be dangerous to remain within it, so it was usually used to temporarily transfer oneself or objects or to trap intruders as a defensive panic room.„
The Computer Gods can create universes, and these are said to be infinitely vast 4th dimensional spaces, which would put the Computer Gods, and thus the system of magic itself, as Universe level+. But then, if the Computer Gods are equal to the entire magic system itself, the source of power for the verse, that mean no one scales, right? Well…

“Just as mana was not infinite, the energy it used was also limited. They may have lived in a magic civilization, but they were merely using the energy supplied to them.„
““What exactly is the Formless Power?”
“It is a mysterious power. But I suppose that does not answer your question. If I had to explain it, I would say it is like the human mind. It is as if tens of thousands of human minds were gathered together. This is only a portion of it here, but it is still a tremendous power.”
“It doesn’t seem like you would need a power like that very often,” said Keena.
“Precisely,” agreed the elder. “But there is something you must know. You should think of the Formless Power as a living being. It is said the Jewel Branch of Hourai chooses the emperor or empress, but you could also say that the Formless Power chooses them.”
“Why do you know that?” asked Keena.
He touched the side of the tower and a mana screen appeared.
“I am the third generation of researchers. But there is nothing more to research, so all I can do is pass down my knowledge.”
“What do you mean there’s nothing more to research?” asked Akuto.
The elder gave the same strange laugh as before.
“Ho fo ho. Once I knew it was a collection of human minds, there was nothing more I could do. If you have some knowledge, then you might understand this better: this ship to the star contains a device to hold an energy field in place. In other words, it is nothing but an empty container. But when devices to measure electric potential and magnetism were attached to the container, it reacted. That reaction is displayed at the top of the tower. The subtle changes are shown with color.”
“It’s empty but it reacted? Are you sure it wasn’t just a mistake?”
“I have detected energy coming from empty space. The Formless Power might be an infinite power.”
“Infinite…”
Akuto was dumbfounded.
“But the most mysterious aspect of all is why I referred to it as a living creature. The reaction from the Formless Power can be changed with human emotion. As Nonimora told you, the people who have lived in this village long enough can borrow a portion of the Formless Power.”		„
““You can think of the Formless Power as something that grants the people’s wishes.” The One’s voice grew louder. “If it is released, my race’s souls will resonate with your human souls, it will influence your human hearts, and you will gain a magical power… no, a power even greater than magic. Isn’t the ideal of the empire’s black magic and the Republic’s magic to have a power that is directly influence by the human mind? That lies here. Release the Formless Power and you liberate us all. This will create a true interaction between our hearts and that will provide you with new magic.”„
So here we have the Formless Power. In contrast to mana, which is limited, the energy of the Formless Power is infinite, with those who release it gaining a power even greater than magic. Since the energy possessed by the Formless Power is greater than mana, the source of magic, which we established earlier was = to the Computer Gods, anyone who scales to the Formless Power equally scales to Universe level+.

“That Formless Power had rivaled Akuto’s mana, so Marine had the power to fight the boy. He would have died without it, but he doubted such a great power would come without a price and he recalled what The One had said.„
“It seems the complex network connections themselves gained this will. And the life that was created, the gods, had no sense of self and no lifespan. For that reason, it constantly wished to die. Yet you humans never realized this. And long ago, a certain man built the system known as the demon king. The demon king can kill the gods and allow them to rest in peace.„
“The demon king is both human and not human. I must begin with the very first. As you know, the first demon king was Zero. Long ago, mankind’s knowledge created an artificial intelligence known as Zero. However, Zero realized that mankind wished for destruction. To ensure mankind was not destroyed, Zero tried to brainwash all of mankind and become one with them. Mankind fought to stop him and that is what we know as the first demon king war. The same thing is happening now. During the first demon king war, not many L’Isle-Adams existed, so mankind managed to win. However, they failed in their development of a new artificial intelligence, so they were unable to abandon Zero. Zero was a miracle. To this day, it is not known how Zero obtained his own intelligence.
Mankind then created the gods based on Zero. To create the gods, data on human thoughts was gathered and those thoughts were appropriated to give the gods the same thought pattern as humans. That allowed them to exist without going insane like Zero. Perhaps a perfect artificial intelligence will naturally go insane. Perhaps an intelligence can only maintain sanity with the contradictory thoughts of a human. The gathered human thought data is the same as the current life logs. All of the electric currents in a baptized human’s brain is saved and added to the gods’ thought patterns. However, the gods reached the conclusion that mankind must be destroyed for the sake of their evolution. It was for a different reason than with Zero, but they too concluded that mankind had to eventually be destroyed.		„
This, of course, includes Awakened Demon Kings such as Akuto and Zero, so the Computer Gods, and by proxy, the whole Tier 2 segment of the verse.
Click to expand...
So, the High 1-B+ universes are currently accepted as Low 2-C. Remember, we are arguing that they have the power to create such large structures (High 1-B+), due to being able to expand them to any size.

Note: VPS = Virtual Phase Spaces = Virtual Alternate Dimensions. I usually use the abbreviation VPS since its the official translation.
 
Has DontTalk accepted any revisions here? If so, I think that they can be applied. 🙏
 
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