• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ultima_Reality said:
Average VSBWoid be like.
Click to expand...
spatial differentiation exists, as shown by a spatially large object being protected by a bubble around it
time exists, as shown by a person declaring "it's time", and the conversation occurring
it's spatially related to ordinary space, accessed by moving in another direction
but "beyond space, beyond time. Beyond the very meaning of those little concepts" so 1-A
Click to expand...
Bravo Ultima.
 
1-A supes lets go

jUOnsRY.png
 
Ultima_Reality said:
We're still waiting on DontTalk to post the summary of his points. Afterwards, we move to voting. In the meantime, I guess I can occupy myself answering stuff I missed from the past few pages.
Click to expand...
Hehe. I don’t suppose you have more in store for our discussion with the Endless and the Presence. Though this begs the question: Do you think Venom with the Enigma Force or even the Living Tribunal are above the Endless?
 
@Ultima_Reality As the reason for Low 1-A existing is that the collection of all dimensional spaces isn't a dimensional space nor an ontological jump, would it be a good idea to add a similar tier between High 1-A and 0 for characters who encompass all extensions of meta-qualitative superiorities but aren't true Monads?
 
Wouldn't you be a monad by being everything? You'd be reducing all things to a single entity.
 
Phoenks said:
Wouldn't you be a monad by being everything? You'd be reducing all things to a single entity.
Click to expand...
No.
Q: Is existing in multiple (Or all) states at once a Tier 0 feat?

A: Not really, no. Lack of differentiation is not "Existing in multiple states at once." And the reasons why are obvious.
Click to expand...
 
Out of curiosity, would a state of Platonic realism make a monad exempt from having aspects being an anti-feat? As in, certain concepts are merely aspects of the monad, but this is only because they're a shadow of the monad itself, which remains unaffected by the reflections of their true nature in reality?

Also, would existing in all possible states be an anti-feat by virtue of embodying multiple aspects?
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
I have no interest in the unsubstantiated.
Click to expand...
How is it unsubstantiated? There is objectively a big difference from "existing" in all states and "being" all states. The former would infer you are merely participating in (being "within") the qualities, while the latter infers all qualities are a derivative of you.

Must I explain why those are completely separate things? I think it should be clear why the former wouldn't qualify for being a Monad.

But if you really need Ultima's word, he already implied that "encompassing all qualities" is another kind of divine simplicity when I asked earlier in the thread.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Please stop, I'm waiting for Ultima.
Click to expand...
What exactly am I doing here that I'm supposed to stop? Nothing I said was rude or disrespectful, or even off-topic. I just denounced your claim about something being unsubstantiated. Frankly, I think the way you worded your rebuttal was itself was rude given that you opted to try and leave the conversation by flat-out stating "I don't care, because XYZ."
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Out of curiosity, would a state of Platonic realism make a monad exempt from having aspects being an anti-feat? As in, certain concepts are merely aspects of the monad, but this is only because they're a shadow of the monad itself, which remains unaffected by the reflections of their true nature in reality?
Click to expand...
Not really, it is simply just that the being in question is likely the Ground Of Being or something similar of the verse.
 
Robo432343 said:
if this comment gets more than 5 likes i will go to ultimas thread and say the word sex
Click to expand...
???
Ben_CleverName said:
What exactly am I doing here that I'm supposed to stop? Nothing I said was rude or disrespectful, or even off-topic. I just denounced your claim about something being unsubstantiated. Frankly, I think the way you worded your rebuttal was itself was rude given that you opted to try and leave the conversation by flat-out stating "I don't care, because XYZ."
Click to expand...
Sorry.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Out of curiosity, would a state of Platonic realism make a monad exempt from having aspects being an anti-feat? As in, certain concepts are merely aspects of the monad, but this is only because they're a shadow of the monad itself, which remains unaffected by the reflections of their true nature in reality?
Click to expand...
Technically, I believe everything is kind of an aspect of the Monad since the Monad is the totality and absolute source of all things. You know what I mean? I believe it only becomes an issue when these "aspects" are treated as scaling to, or being directly compared in any way to the Monad itself. Like if they were to be a "portion," or "piece," or "part" of the Monad, or if they were to be a comparable entity in any kind of scope, since that inherently doesn't really make sense. I am guessing that's what Ultima meant when he referred to "aspects."

In your example I'm guessing the relationship between your monad and its aspects would be like the relationship between the Form of the Good and other forms in Platonism. Or am I wrong on that?
 
Phoenks said:
Technically, I believe everything is kind of an aspect of the Monad since the Monad is the totality and absolute source of all things. You know what I mean? I believe it only becomes an issue when these "aspects" are treated as scaling to, or being directly compared in any way to the Monad itself. Like if they were to be a "portion," or "piece," or "part" of the Monad, or if they were to be a comparable entity in any kind of scope, since that inherently doesn't really make sense. I am guessing that's what Ultima meant when he referred to "aspects."
Click to expand...
I see. If that's the case, then that's really good to hear, but I'd of course like to know what Ultima has to say.
Phoenks said:
In your example I'm guessing the relationship between your monad and its aspects would be like the relationship between the Form of the Good and other forms in Platonism. Or am I wrong on that?
Click to expand...
Yes, exactly.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
We know God is 0. Is Maya at least 1-A and Pralaya High 1-A?
Click to expand...
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
@Ultima_Reality As the reason for Low 1-A existing is that the collection of all dimensional spaces isn't a dimensional space nor an ontological jump, would it be a good idea to add a similar tier between High 1-A and 0 for characters who encompass all extensions of meta-qualitative superiorities but aren't true Monads?
Click to expand...
These two questions are related, so I'm grouping them together.

Anyway: Good question, yeah. You could conceivably have a "High 1-A+" tier that essentially serves as a capstone for the entire Tiering System and the highest you can possibly go before reaching Tier 0. In this case, it could be formulated as being just the collection of all possibilities, where Tier 0 is the pure actuality that serves as the grounding and foundation of all these possibilities, while not being, itself, one of them. Basically the set of all possible things that the Tier 0 can bring into existence, which, obviously, is a composited thing that excludes the Tier 0 itself.

You could associate this with a Maya/Brahman dichotomy, where, if the Monad is the dreamer, the High 1-A+ character/structure is essentially the framework of its dreaming itself, which contains all things that the Monad can dream. You could also say that, while High 1-A+ is the set of all possible combinations of characters and letters and sentences, Tier 0 is the thing outside of that (See here for an example of such a thing), which brings all of it into existence or at least serves as the basis of it.

A can imagine a few characters that'd qualify for that tier, and it'd have some interesting properties that differ it from lower tiers. For example, you can't be above High 1-A+ without being Tier 0. And you can also have only one High 1-A+ per verse (You can't exactly have multiple collections of all possibility). Overall good food for thought.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Out of curiosity, would a state of Platonic realism make a monad exempt from having aspects being an anti-feat? As in, certain concepts are merely aspects of the monad, but this is only because they're a shadow of the monad itself, which remains unaffected by the reflections of their true nature in reality?

Also, would existing in all possible states be an anti-feat by virtue of embodying multiple aspects?
Click to expand...
The Monad having multiple aspects is fine, as long as:

1. These aspects share of one essence/substance, and don't constitute an actual division in it. You see a lot of that with verses that go "Oh these two entities appear separate but they're one and the same in reality." (This distinction can also be more than an appearance, but, yeah, that's the gist of it)

or

2. These aspects are like "projections" or "emanations" of the Monad that are below its true essence proper.

VeryGoofyToddler said:
Though this begs the question: Do you think Venom with the Enigma Force or even the Living Tribunal are above the Endless?
Click to expand...
Apologies, but my lawyer has advised me to not answer this question.

VeryGoofyToddler said:
Hehe. I don’t suppose you have more in store for our discussion with the Endless and the Presence.
Click to expand...
I'm open to discussing it further, if you'd like. If not here then elsewhere.

Rabbit2002 said:
Question: What will be the tier of "Non-Having-No-Immortality" in the following paragraphs according to Ultima's new tier? Note: People who cannot visualize, think, visualize.. It also includes characters who possess BDE type 2
Click to expand...
1. Get better taste in fiction.

2. Normally, I'd call this Tier 0, but seeing as this is a cultivation novel, I won't be as charitable. I'd say it's High 1-A, if it exceeds the duality between "Immortal" and "Non-Immortal" where at least one of those is 1-A and the other is lower.
 
Last edited:
Unqver said:
The dimension gap in a novel is the description of dream and reality, real and false, but in terms of the number of dimensions, the description is innumerable time and space dimensions or simple innumerable dimensions. How should this be treated?
Click to expand...
Can someone answer my question?
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Can this actually happen.
Click to expand...
I mean, DC obviously has 1-A things under the proposed Tiering System, yes. This just isn't one of them.

Unqver said:
Can someone answer my question?
Click to expand...
Oh, missed that one. Sorry.

Anyway: If it's explicitly described as regular geometrical dimensions, then that opens up the very strong possibility that the "reality/dream" and "true/false" stuff is just flowery language, but that's as far as I can say. I'd need the actual scans to evaluate that, obviously.
 
Tyranno223 said:
I've been looking into this on the side while going forward with my current Ainur revisions, but can you give a brief breakdown on how?

I understand stuff like Eru being infinite compared to the Ainur, Tolkien's ventures into Aristotelian Philosophy, his equalising with literal God and Eru, etc, but I haven't given Him a full look.

Also, do you think the Ainur are 1-A?
Click to expand...
Just gonna bump my question real quick.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I mean, DC obviously has 1-A things under the proposed Tiering System, yes. This just isn't one of them.


Oh, missed that one. Sorry.

Anyway: If it's explicitly described as regular geometrical dimensions, then that opens up the very strong possibility that the "reality/dream" and "true/false" stuff is just flowery language, but that's as far as I can say. I'd need the actual scans to evaluate that, obviously.
Click to expand...
This novel only mentions countless dimensions of time and space, without explicitly expressing that dimensions are geometric. When the protagonist's dimension is elevated to four dimensions in the ending, he believes that the entire three-dimensional world was originally a dream, but everything in the dream could also be real

Add the original text：
1, "That's right," Su Jie said This is indeed a paradox, and it is this paradox that can prove that the past, present, and future are all separate processes of development, interconnected but not interfering with each other. This is a divergent trend of countless dimensions, where time and space make up the world, and the world is divergent, not a straight line. You came today and asked me to tell your fortune, but it was actually because of anxiety in your thinking Just like humans, I have developed a fear of the future and my own life and death. Fear of life and death is one of the fundamental characteristics of life
2. "As I said, truth, falsehood, falsehood, truth, and falsehood are all aspects of understanding dimensions. The information that occurs within the dimension you are in is true, and your current state is far from perfect." Su Jie said, "For example, if you think I am fake now, but I can still beat you."
3. Is this very unusual? Your realm is still a bit inferior. Although your consciousness has a very high spiritual content, it is difficult to distinguish between reality and illusion, or to distinguish which dimension matter is in. It can be said that everything is true, even your dreams are actually true, just in different dimensions from us. To distinguish between truth and falsehood, it is actually to distinguish the dimension in which matter is located At this moment, Su Jie had a completely new understanding of reality and illusion.

1，“没错。”苏劫道：“这的确是一个悖论，正是这个悖论，可以证明过去和现在还有未来，都是单独发展的历程，相互之间互有联系，但相互之间，却并不干涉。这是一种无数维度的发散走向，时间和空间组成了世界，而世界，是发散的，不是一条直线。你今天来，让我为你算命，其实是因为你的思维之中产生了不安，你已经和人一样，对于未来，对于自己的生死存亡，有了恐惧心。对生死有恐惧心，这是生命的基本特征之一。”
2，“我说了，真真假假，假假真真，都是对于维度的认识，所发生的信息，在你所处的这个维度之中，就是真的，你现在的境界还差得远。”苏劫道：“比如你现在认为，我是假的，但是我照样可以打你。”
3，这很稀奇么？你的境界还是差了一些，虽然你的意识之中含灵量非常的高，可是很难分辨真实和虚幻，或者说是分辨物质在哪个维度，可以说，任何东西，都是真的，哪怕是你的梦，其实也是真的，只不过和我们在不同的维度而已，我们要分辨真假，实际上就是辨别物质所处的维度。”苏劫此时此刻，对于真实和虚幻，又有了一种全新的理解。
"Deep down inside, you actually don't believe in these mysterious things." Su Jiedao: Although you rely on this to make a living, your heart is very clear. However, cultural and cultural heritage are intangible spiritual wealth, and fate is actually just a kind of fit. It is not so mysterious. Just like a student who studies, some people naturally love mathematics, while others naturally love Chinese. People who love mathematics, even if they don't listen attentively in class, can still get high scores, which is also one of the reasons Fate, innate interest. In psychology, I call it atypical spiritual fit. Of course, as long as a person's spiritual realm reaches a certain level and comprehends the true colorless emptiness, non action and non form, they can fully align with the dimensions of time and space, as well as various great paths. This is called being able to bond with all sentient beings, non sentient beings, and this realm is very high
The mountains, waters, and cultural atmosphere of this place are always present in his spiritual world, or in other words, the soul here and his soul are deeply intertwined.
So Su Jie doesn't need any martial arts dragon veins at all.
Rooted here, spirit here, bloodline here, being in a foreign land, and having a home in the heart, what kind of dragon luck do we need?
Su Jie's spiritual realm has been elevated to an infinite level
The focus of Su Jie's current practice is on breaking through the spiritual level. He mainly uses his own spirit to connect with heaven and earth, time and space, the general trend, and humanity, so that his spirit can truly break through certain limitations, be able to travel freely, break free from constraints, and achieve true freedom and freedom.
In fact, after reaching a certain level of cultivation, people tend to prioritize spiritual cultivation over physical exercise.
The martial arts masters of all time have never been like this.
Even fighters tend to prioritize spiritual cultivation in the end. Because they know that the power of the flesh and blood of the human body is limited, and only the realm of the soul is infinite.
1，你的内心深处，其实根本不相信这些玄之又玄的东西。”苏劫道：“虽然你靠这个吃饭，但你的内心非常清楚。不过文运龙脉这些东西，也就是一种无形的精神财富，而缘分这东西，实际上是一种契合度而已。也并没有那么神秘。就如一个学生读书，有的人天生喜欢数学，有的人则是天生喜欢语文。喜欢数学的人，哪怕是上课不认真听讲，也可以考到高分，这也是一种缘分，与生俱来的兴趣。这在心理学上我称之为非典型精神契合度。当然，只要人的精神境界到达了一定程度，参悟了真正的无色无空，无为无相，就可以和时空维度，各种大道都完全契合。这就叫做和所有众生，非众生都能结缘，此境界，那就非常之高了。”
2此地的山山水水，人文气息，都在他的精神世界中时时刻刻存留着，或者说是这里的魂和他的魂已经心心相印。
所以苏劫根本不需要什么武运龙脉。
根在这里，精神在这里，血脉在这里，身在他乡，心亦有归宿，还要什么龙脉气运呢？
苏劫的精神境界已经提高到一个无限的层次
3苏劫现在修行的重点放在精神层次的突破上,他主要是运用自身的精神和天地、时空、大势、人文相互对接,使得自己的精神真正突破某种限制,能够畅游大千,打破束缚,得到真正的大自在,大自由。
其实修为到达了一定境界的人之后,都把修炼的比重放到心灵修为之上,而不是一味的肉体锻炼。
历来的武学大师,莫不是如此。
哪怕是格斗家,也最后偏重了心灵修行。因为他们知道,人体血肉之躯的力量是有限的,而只有心灵的境界是无限的。
The world is originally a dream, and everything is illusory, but the illusion in the illusion, in the dream, may also be true.
"大千世界，本来一梦，一切虚幻，但虚幻之中的虚幻，梦中之中，也有可能就是真实。
 
Last edited:
Ultima_Reality said:
I'm open to discussing it further, if you'd like. If not here then elsewhere
Click to expand...
Sorry to disturb your time
But, what do you think, will DC become 1A because there is this infinite higher-dimensional?
•Databook
•Hyperspace
DC has 6 layers of the world, not dimensions in general
•Here
Presence enters creation by manifesting himself as an avatar, in creation, he waits for living beings to shape his form, from the energy he gave to perpetua previously.
•The presence
 
🗿

presence block lvl

this guy negs presence
vsbattles.fandom.com

God (Seekers into the Mystery)

God is the central character of the graphic novel Seekers Into the Mystery, written by J.M DeMatteis. He is the ultimate reality and utmost source of all things, being the ocean of nothingness (And also of pure love) from which all of existence emanated, having been created so as to express...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
I'd rather do this here than on Discord where I'll inevitably forget and ask you again but...

WoD has various competing faiths and philosophies and what not, so in verses where it’s a grab bag of ideas, which do we consider to the the most true?

It was easy before, since the mathematics in WoD was just an undercurrent to the metaphysics but now we focus on the metaphysics…

Likewise, when you was talking about the idea of Monad and the thing which contains all of what Monad can dream, what about in cases where there’s multiple beings performing that act.

The example here I mean is the Wyld, Weaver and Wyrm, they essentially are that function but how would this proposed High 1-A+ work with three beings? And then beings like Gaia who are beyond their framework?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

  • Locked
VS Battles Is Nonsense / Delete My Account
Replies
6
Views
3K
Dragonite007
Dragonite007
demonwarrior2266
Application of Ultima's CRT
Replies
4
Views
2K
Hypertornado099
Hypertornado099
  • Locked
What would debunk the basis of the VSBW tiering system
Replies
6
Views
2K
Urshani
Boy.Line
Qualification issues.
Replies
7
Views
750
TheOrangeGuy09
TheOrangeGuy09
Ultima_Reality
  • Locked
On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System
12 13 14
Replies
530
Views
180K
Ultima_Reality
Ultima_Reality
Back
Top