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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Agnaa said:
Well yeah, but my idea for how they'd reach that would be through UES shenanigans, scaling, and magic.

Or, if they can toggle their physiology between the two, but some could argue that both would just have different tiers, even though that feels a little wack.
Click to expand...

True, they could interact with volume without volume equalization through these ways

vice versa tho? haha... I lowkey wonder how something which lacks volume can be destroyed. Its funny to think about.

Time for moi to go to bed.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Screenshot_20231224-153116_Photo_Editor.jpg
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Damn, that actually scared me. Lol
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Yeah


Well, a Tier 0 under the proposed system has to be totally undifferentiated and possess no "degrees" to its power and nature, which is one single irreducible totality. God, on paper, is described as such in the story, but in practice:


So, clearly God's attributes have degrees and differentiation to them, so much so they can be reduced and subtracted to make the universe. That kills any possibility of Tier 0 for him, I'd say.

I'm decently confident that Agnaa and I can reach an agreement pretty quickly at the rate things are going. Even if we don't, it'll ultimately come down to a vote, so it doesn't really matter, if the opposition's side ultimately finds itself outvoted.
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I do not agree. he was stated to be unending, boundless, infinite, which shows, even if he takes from himself, it will never be exhausted. The 1 is unending, the 0 is also unending. That is god, the embodiment of the fullness of 1 and the nothingness of 0.
 
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Iamunanimousinthat said:
Are we still going to be doing that thing where we pretend transcending something and lacking something are two different things?
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Me when I transcend size on every axis beyond the 3 in our universe because I lack size in them.
Trigger said:
I do not agree. he was stated to be unending, boundless, infinite, which shows, even if he takes from himself, it will never be exhausted. The 1 is unending, the 0 is also unending. That is god, the embodiment of the fullness of 1 and the nothingness of 0.
Click to expand...
That's not how Unsong's God is described. The 0 isn't him, it's the absence left by him withdrawing from the world.
“Leibniz was studying the I Ching, and he noticed that its yin and yang sticks, when arranged in hexagrams, corresponded to a new form of arithmetic, because he was Leibniz and of course he noticed that. So he invented binary numbers and wrote a letter to the Duke of Brunswick saying that he had explained how God could create the universe out of nothing. It goes like this. You’ve got God, who is 1. You’ve got nothingness, which is 0. And that’s all you need to create everything. 1s and 0s arranged in a long enough string.”

“How, exactly?”

“The kabbalistic conception is that God withdrew from Himself to create the world. I, for example, am beautiful and intelligent, but not so physically strong. God is perfectly beautiful and intelligent and strong, so by withdrawing a little bit of His beauty and intelligence, and a lot of His strength, and some other things, we end up with an Ana.”
Click to expand...
 
Agnaa said:
Me when I transcend size on every axis beyond the 3 in our universe because I lack size in them.

That's not how Unsong's God is described. The 0 isn't him, it's the absence left by him withdrawing from the world.
Click to expand...
Are you really going to make me go through the entire book to prove you wrong🥺🥺
 
Trigger said:
Are you really going to make me go through the entire book to prove you wrong🥺🥺
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I believe that interlude is the only place where divine nothingness is really talked about, so I don't think you'd need to.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Are we still going to be doing that thing where we pretend transcending something and lacking something are two different things?
Click to expand...
Agnaa said:
Me when I transcend size on every axis beyond the 3 in our universe because I lack size in them.
Click to expand...

Awkchwaly its not not "because"... its "as a result":geek:

Transcending something depending on the context leads to the lack there of.

if you transcend the 3 in such a way that you separate from them entirely, you have transcended the fundamental 1s that will make up the 3s
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
Screenshot_20231224-153116_Photo_Editor.jpg
Click to expand...
So for simplicity assume this "nothingness" that composed reality is tier 0.

Nothingness is a fundamental form that forms all and every reality, but characters and ordinary beings perceive what their brains and 5 basic senses interacting with the world's wants to be perceived and makes everything "real." (Hopefully that makes sense)

However, ascending to a higher state allows you to see that that reality is inherently Nothingness and is not "real." And they cam manipulate the Nothingness that composes the reality.

Hopefully this example is straightforward, easy to understand, and is a good enough example.......

I assume the answer is a straightforward but wanted to make sure
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
So for simplicity assume this "nothingness" that composed reality is tier 0.

Nothingness is a fundamental form that forms all and every reality, but characters and ordinary beings perceive what their brains and 5 basic senses interacting with the world's wants to be perceived and makes everything "real." (Hopefully that makes sense)

However, ascending to a higher state allows you to see that that reality is inherently Nothingness and is not "real." And they cam manipulate the Nothingness that composes the reality.

Hopefully this example is straightforward, easy to understand, and is a good enough example.......

I assume the answer is a straightforward but wanted to make sure
Click to expand...
if they can manipulate it then that suggests it's subject to change therefore not tier 0
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
exactly why I'm asking
Click to expand...
Sounds like you got your answer already.
TheUnshakableOne said:
So for simplicity assume this "nothingness" that composed reality is tier 0.

Nothingness is a fundamental form that forms all and every reality, but characters and ordinary beings perceive what their brains and 5 basic senses interacting with the world's wants to be perceived and makes everything "real." (Hopefully that makes sense)

However, ascending to a higher state allows you to see that that reality is inherently Nothingness and is not "real." And they cam manipulate the Nothingness that composes the reality.

Hopefully this example is straightforward, easy to understand, and is a good enough example.......

I assume the answer is a straightforward but wanted to make sure
Click to expand...
Anyways this already has two red flags (characters being able to "ascend" to this state, and Nothingness being able to be manipulated), so RIP.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Sounds like you got your answer already.

Anyways this already has two red flags (characters being able to "ascend" to this state, and Nothingness being able to be manipulated), so RIP.
Click to expand...
They aren't ascending to that state equal top it* but to a state where they perceive and can see it and then manipulate the cosmology with it.

But yeah the unchangeable nature I see the issue there, but what if it's for the sake of the plots movement?
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
So for simplicity assume this "nothingness" that composed reality is tier 0.

Nothingness is a fundamental form that forms all and every reality, but characters and ordinary beings perceive what their brains and 5 basic senses interacting with the world's wants to be perceived and makes everything "real." (Hopefully that makes sense)

However, ascending to a higher state allows you to see that that reality is inherently Nothingness and is not "real." And they cam manipulate the Nothingness that composes the reality.

Hopefully this example is straightforward, easy to understand, and is a good enough example.......

I assume the answer is a straightforward but wanted to make sure
Click to expand...
Sounds less like Tier 0 and more like Tier 1-A IMO.
 
I personally see the revision as good mainly by removing Low 1-A. The unchanged nature is what I'm unsure of, so restricting 0 to the very absolute is a good idea.
 
So, does anyone have any ideas what verse would qualify for the new tier 1-a rating? I think Shinra from fire force or veldanava from tensura would qualify.
 
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