The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[ÆONS]

OPM fanfiction vs Undertale fan wiki

It's over...

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

It is, the fact that Arata can go to the dragon lord realm by mere dimensional travel (with a ship) disprove R>F. And it's lack some of the requirements for R>F.

Arata is not a "Fiction". Let's see if that standard has been applied.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

You can always count on SCP being bullshit.

It's the only verse I know of that explicitly mentions inaccessible cardinals (here, fifth footnote).

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Arata is not a "Fiction". Let's see if that standard has been applied.

That the more reason why TS R>F isn't valid lol

 

[Deidalius]

OPM fanfiction vs Undertale fan wiki

All of that nerdybabble just for Goku to solo.

 

[StekFence]

Nice complex hax, now check this shit out.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I think Gao Chuan is tier 0 :V

Gao Chuan is omnipotence awakened, an omnipotence that could not possibly exist, yet still awakened in an instant that could not be measured by time, with omnipotence being the greatest, strongest and most inconceivable power. It is normally impossible to achieve omniscience and omnipotence as it is the realm of True Infinity, the unreachable last step by beings who can expand their power infinitely with no limit or end. As such to reach True Infinity one must surpass infinite limits, as this is a truly endless realm, a boundless realm, surpassing incomplete logic entirely

 

[Phoenks]

"truly endless, boundless, AND boundless"

Wow. I hate this. I also don't think it's Tier 0.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

"truly endless, boundless, AND boundless"

Wow. I hate this. I also don't think it's Tier 0.

It is Chinese literature and the translation is lost in English.

That boundless and the other boundless literally use different characters.

There's more than six different Chinese characters for the word "Boundless" that can have different meanings each.

 

[TheGatememer]

So, under new standards, is it completely impossible for a character in lower tiers to have “Smurf” hax? (ie, a 3D character having 1-A hax)

 

[Everything12]

Avatars can still apply, higher dimensional smurfs can still apply, beings bestowed powers from higher beings can probably still apply, stuff gained from having a 1-A soul or whatever can probably still apply with the right context. But non-1-A character punching 1-A character in face, probably not.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

Let's see if that standard has been applied.

shit, r>f standard tightened

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

shit, r>f standard tightened

Lmao

 

[Everything12]

We have known that it would day 1.

 

[Everything12]

So now that we have had a look at Ultima's suggestion, what's the opinion on this draft:

The Main Proposal
Arceus is the "God who transcends everything", whose realm is far beyond both the infinite space (which consists of parallel universes and directions) and time and the Distortion World, which lacks time and direction.

The true form of Arceus is the Heart/Original Spirit, an all-encompassing absolute existence who gave birth to the world, both the regular world and Giratina's, through perceiving it. Within it all the people and Pokemon were the same being, they were all the same within its consciousness all possessing the same heart. Even the concepts which formed creation were mixed within itself, before it emanated them into existence. It is the primordial consciousness, that is both a part of everything and outside everything, beyond time and space, and everything material, spiritual or nonexistent. It is only through it's physical manifestation, that itself is beyond both time and space and the reach of everything else in the world, that it can see and walk the world on the same level as it's inhabitants.

The Original Spirit and Chaos
When talking about Arceus their are actual few mentions of it in the primary canon, mostly restricted to the Canalave Library myth, the engravings on the Plates, and the myth given by the Miner when you show them Arceus. However, withe appearance of Arceus in Legends: Arceus we were shown that those myths weren't just stories but contained actual factual evidence. However, despite this fact they are still presented as myths and so are poetic in nature and what they say can be up to interpretation, which is why the further explain the nature of Arceus I will give my own understanding of these myths based on teh context of me being knowledge on the Pokemon series.

In the beginning their was only a churning turmoil of chaos.
At the heart of chaos, where all things become one, appeared an Egg.
Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One.
From itself, two beings the Original One did make.
Time started to spin. Space began to expand.

Now when reading this particular text it seems as if it only talks about the Original One, and isn't too relevant to Arceus' true form. However, I'd like to point to the line:

"At the heart of chaos, where all things become one, appeared an Egg."

A heart where all things are one, this is similar description to the descriptions given of Arceus' true form as all-encompassing shared heart of people and Pokemon which gave birth to the world and the Original One. Through this understanding it can be read that the chaos is actually a metaphor for Arceus' true form, with the egg and tumbling from the chaos being a metaphorical description of Arceus creating it's avatar within the lower world it will soon create.

The "Birth" of the Original Spirit

"The way I see, our world began when the spirit within people was born.
When that spirit came to be, there followed awareness awareness about the world."

"Within the newborn spirit, time and space were intertwined as one.
People and Pokemon, too, were but the same presence.
As I understand it, people and Pokemon shared the spirit and awareness.
They should have understood and accepted each other then.
Because they shared the same spirit, people and Pokemon intermingled.
People took the place of Pokemon, and the opposite held true.
That interpenetration could give us an idea of how our world came to be."

Now these two quotes seem to suggest that the Original Spirit is not an eternal being that always existed, but actual came into being. I however think this surface level interpretation is not the actual meaning of what is being said, instead of talking about the creation of the Original Spirit it is instead talking about it's metaphorical birth into the world it created.

The first quote talks about how the spirit was born and this gave awareness leading to the world's creation, but I'd like to point out another point where Arceus and perception a linked together.

"Upon thee..and upon this creation where thou now dwellest...
I bestow my blessing.
And I bestow upon thee a part of myself.
I would walk this path world together with thee. Show me how it appeareth in thine eyes."

This is what Arceus says when it gives the trainer in Legends Arceus it's avatar. It uses the avatar to see the world in a difference perspective, to gain awareness of the world from the view of the people and Pokemon.

As for the second quote I reference this, the second of which comes from Arceus' Plates:

"From itself, two beings the Original One did make. Time started to spin. Space began to expand."

"Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One."

As well as the Hiker's own mussing on the subject:

"Hmm... The Spirit came to be, and from it, time and space were born...
That seems to point to Legendary Dialga, the Pokemon of time, and Palkia, the Pokemon of space...
And they lead back to Arceus, the Pokemon that made them arise."

So when it talks about the spirit being born, it's talking about it's creation of the Original One and through this avatar it gained a new awareness of the world, through seeing it how the people and Pokemon will see it in the future when they dwell in the world, and through this the creation of the world. Thus the spirit was never created or experience any actual change itself.

Conclusion
I think that the Original Spirit should be Tier 0 it's nature of being the almighty all-encompassing deity that is transcendent of everything, existing both within and outside all things. Though it should get at least 1-A if this isn't considered enough.

Meanwhile, the Original One should get a additional Possibly Low 1-A tier for having created it's realm that is beyond dimensions.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Read ultimas proposal. Agree with BDE. Not with R>F of course as is my brand.

“Equating this to a dimensional jump is erroneous because, ultimately, an object of n dimensions and an object of n+1 dimensions are equally real. An object of finite dimensions and an object of infinite dimensions are equally real, too. An object of infinite dimensions and an object of uncountably infinite dimensions are, in fact, also equally real.”

While this is true, the opposite is also true. Take a real world that has n dimensional space and objects. Make it more real, the dimensions don’t increase what so ever. No matter how more ontologically real you make something, no other property of itself changes. The only example I can think of other properties intrinsically changing is that the more real things were the more good and more beautiful they are (Narnia) but those aren’t qualities that can be quantified or associated with power.

Also side note:

I don’t think narnia will be accepted. The layers of more real narnia are all connected and the cast of the book literally physically walk through the layers like they’re backpacking across country. It would fit in Ultimas example of what doesn’t qualify.

 

[Everything12]

Read ultimas proposal. Agree with BDE. Not with R>F of course as is my brand.

“Equating this to a dimensional jump is erroneous because, ultimately, an object of n dimensions and an object of n+1 dimensions are equally real. An object of finite dimensions and an object of infinite dimensions are equally real, too. An object of infinite dimensions and an object of uncountably infinite dimensions are, in fact, also equally real.”

While this is true, the opposite is also true. Take a real world that has n dimensional space and objects. Make it more real, the dimensions don’t increase what so ever. No matter how more ontologically real you make something, no other property of itself changes. The only example I can think of other properties intrinsically changing is that the more real things were the more good and more beautiful they are (Narnia) but those aren’t qualities that can be quantified or associated with power.

Isn't that covered by this point.

The second one is straightforward, and is only really a factor in the second forms of R>F described above: Is the "real world" really being depicted as something transcendentally powerful, compared to the fictional reality? A good example of what I mean by this would be this scene from Final Crisis: Superman Beyond, where Superman reaches out to try and grasp what is implied to be the reader of the comic, and describes it as "something immense beyond understanding." The Luminous Being from Dungeons and Dragons would be yet another instance of this.

In contrast, there can be characters who are depicted as literal authors and so on, but whose exact relationship with the fictional world is... vague, at best. In many such cases, you could very well interpret them as simply living externally to these worlds, and as having control over them, not involving total ontological transcendence at all. In which case, they'd be similar to the example of the One Being given above, simply swap dreams with books or whatever you like.

 

[Everything12]

IF you meet the R>F standards, then I imagine 1-A.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Isn't that covered by this point.

Not really. To me, if he is going to use that as an example of true R>F, then the majority of characters with R>F are going to be downgraded to depths of hell.

Those are literally conventions to describe the reader, actual real world people. The parameters of the medium of comic books and table top games make it impossible for the characters in these medium to interact with us in a real time basis.

Video games can interact with us in real time, but still limited. AR and holographic mediums can do more. Until we get AI robots that can simulate a tangible intractable experience, where they create an entirely physical and immersive world, these fictional stories will always be limited by their mediums.

If West world was real, would the characters in these game stories be highest tier since they can affect the reader while super man cant?

And looping back, while those are great examples, the quality to me doesn’t come from real or fiction, it comes from the narratives relation to the reader or consumer.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, after reading the TL;DR, I'm far more confident in those funny Touhou upgrades than I was before. The first two requirements are easy - the third is problematic, but ultimately something I think can be explained away with verse mechanics (assuming I'm not misunderstanding Ultima's other points).

 

[Everything12]

I think the third part is one of the most important, which doesn't mean much being one of three but anyway, and I don't think a mere verse mechanics will cover it.

 

[Tyranno223]

LotR seems pretty safe as well.

1. Eru and the Ainur's level of existence compared to the Legendarium is the same difference between myth and reality, author and fiction, thinker and thought.
2. The Ainur's level of existence is so immense that they had to "descend" into infinite space-time and reduce themselves to its boundaries to interact with it as a "real" thing and not distant fiction. They're so powerful that they have to cripple themselves to fit in the work's boundaries.
3. Same as 1 and 2. Interactions between Eru and the Legendarium are described as author with fiction, or thinker with thought. There is no genuine way to interact with that level of existence for lower beings unless you originate from there (like the restrained Ainur) and even then, you merely get visions and instructions rather than actually truly interacting.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't think a mere verse mechanics will cover it.

I've asked Ultima about this earlier in this thread and he suggested that it was acceptable. He also mentions the possibility of outside forces being able to explain such interaction between fictional and real entities (although I would like an example of such so I know I'm not misinterpreting things). Obviously, such a thing would need to have an extraordinarily high standard of proof behind it, which I believe Touhou does (it spends a lot of time talking about the mechanics of how things change existential states, becoming more or less "real"; it's practically the entire basis for the setting).

Of course, things may change once these standards are accepted and written in a more formal manner, so I could be way off base and 1-A Touhou could've always just been a fruitless endeavor.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I believe Narnia would be affected as well.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Despite my hatred of R>F, moving all qualitative stuff to 1-A will finally get rid of that silly, “nu-uh, my character is 7D. Your 4D hax wont work.” Make hax great again.

 

[Everything12]

Was their anything saying that Higher-Dimensional Existence will no longer give immunity to lower dimensional abilities?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

From my memory, the immunity was sprung from the qualitative superiority. 4D cant interact with 5D. But without that, there is no reason for it. After all quantitatively speaking, all higher dimensions have lower dimensional cross sections.

 

[Everything12]

It came from the fact that a higher dimensional object has a whole lot of surface area a lower dimensional being won't be able to reach.

 

[Deagonx]

It came from the fact that a higher dimensional object has a whole lot of surface area a lower dimensional being won't be able to reach.

That would only apply to physical impact though, right? Not other abilities.

 

[deonment]

That would only apply to physical impact though, right? Not other abilities.

No, it would apply to anything that has to interface with the scope of something.

 

[Everything12]

I believe the logic is that their concept/soul/whatever is also so big that whatever damage the abilities do is negligible. Though in truth its probably just that stolen from some popular anime or comic where higher dimensions are not treated as dimensional axis but more higher planes of existence equivalent to R>F differences and that higher dimensional beings can just ignore whatever the lower dimensional beings do and the wiki has just kept the system because of tradition.

 

[Deagonx]

I believe the logic is that their concept/soul/whatever is also so big that whatever damage the abilities do is negligible. Though in truth its just that stolen from some popular anime or comic where higher dimensions are not dimensional axis but more higher planes of existence equivalent to R>F differences and that higher dimensional beings can just ignore whatever the lower dimensional beings do and the wiki has just kept the system because of tradition.

Right, but I believe unanimous is saying that this change will largely redact that. There's no reason why mind hax or concept hax would be limited by the dimensionality of the user/target if we are no longer equating them to ontological differences.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I guess range vs potency thing where resisting something from a unlayered 5-D source wouldn't protect you from lets say a layered 3-D source since 5-D wouldn't really be applicable for a potency.

 

[Everything12]

Right, but I believe unanimous is saying that this change will largely redact that. There's no reason why mind hax or concept hax would be limited by the dimensionality of the user/target if we are no longer equating them to ontological differences.

Depends if Ultima cares enough to bring it up or just leaves it untalked about and is kept around because tradition.

 

[SYPHe5D]

It came from the fact that a higher dimensional object has a whole lot of surface area a lower dimensional being won't be able to reach.

Yeah, they have higher dimensional sections which lower dimensional beings can’t interact with to my understanding.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It came from the fact that a higher dimensional object has a whole lot of surface area a lower dimensional being won't be able to reach.

A 7D object’s surface area would be 6D. So a 6D being/attack/hax would still be able to interact with it. You can argue that a 6D being wouldn’t be able to interact with 7D volume, but they would still be able to interact with the 6D cross sections of that volume.

Many attacks/hax ignore durability, need only a single point of touch, or are nonphysical, so being a higher D will not make you automatically and outright immune.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

A 7D object’s surface area would be 6D. So a 6D being/attack/hax would still be able to interact with it. You can argue that a 6D being wouldn’t be able to interact with 7D volume, but they would still be able to interact with the 6D cross sections of that volume.

Many attacks/hax ignore durability, need only a single point of touch, or are nonphysical, so being a higher D will not make you automatically and outright immune.

Yeah, I've been catching up and I do believe that was the case.

 

[deonment]

Right, but I believe unanimous is saying that this change will largely redact that. There's no reason why mind hax or concept hax would be limited by the dimensionality of the user/target if we are no longer equating them to ontological differences.

I mean we haven't been (especially after Bob's smurf hax revisions). We used to mostly say that the mind or soul would also scale up for whatever reason despite those things being innately non-physical, which isn't really changed by the current revisions.

A 7D object’s surface area would be 6D. So a 6D being/attack/hax would still be able to interact with it. You can argue that a 6D being wouldn’t be able to interact with 7D volume, but they would still be able to interact with the 6D cross sections of that volume.

Many attacks/hax ignore durability, need only a single point of touch, or are nonphysical, so being a higher D will not make you automatically and outright immune.

Sure you would be able to affect the surface but
1)A decent amount of dura negging haxes (ignoring the obvious ones such as mind and soul) very much has a limit to the scope they can affect, you can erase that 6D cross-section but it won't really affect the full 7D being
2)for the stuff that only needs a point of contact, depending on the mechanic we wouldn't really have reason to presume they could spread through an additional axis beyond what it already has shown, so once again it would affect the cross-section but not the full being

 

[Deagonx]

We used to mostly say that the mind or soul would also scale up for whatever reason despite those things being innately non-physical, which isn't really changed by the current revisions.

I see. This was removed by Bob's revisions? I saw the thread but I didn't participate.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Sure you would be able to affect the surface but
1)A decent amount of dura negging haxes (ignoring the obvious ones such as mind and soul) very much has a limit to the scope they can affect, you can erase that 6D cross-section but it won't really affect the full 7D being
2)for the stuff that only needs a point of contact, depending on the mechanic we wouldn't really have reason to presume they could spread through an additional axis beyond what it already has shown, so once again it would affect the cross-section but not the full being

This is true, but the question is, if I erase an infinitesimal slip down the half of you, can you survive being severed in half.

And this question of immunity only is for beings with HDE. 3D beings with higher d attack potency and durability will definitely get their entire volumes affected.