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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Gasper said:
It does however, have infinite hierarchy of spatial dimensions, higher one views the lower one as infinitesimal in comparison and then it has infinite gates the higher views the lower one as illusion or "imperfection" or even as Shadow.
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Yeah methinks Angled Space would be a chain of R>F since Space & Time are just illusions and nonexistent actually as they are imperfect manifestations of Angled Space.
 
Fixxed said:
Like i say i dont think R>F is equal to nonexistence. Dream even if it just illusion it still exist, in thought or mental meaning. Nonexistence in other hand is literally not exist even in thought or mind, you cannot even think about that

I mean what is nonexistence??? Is it black, a darkness??? Then it not nonexistence at all

So the "atribute" of nonexistence is not equal to the atribute of fiction. Like from the very fundamental atribute of existence not equal to the atribute of reality
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Correct.

The difference between R>F is abstraction and physical.
 
Fixxed said:
Bruh i dont know where you got 2D is not lacking of volume, 2D is 2D because it have no volume, the volume is 0



Even DT say 4D is strecth in 5D space, but the volume is still 0, and cannot be tiered
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The thread in simple terms:

Ideal scenarios of R>F where there are no anti-feats and there is an unquestionable Reality to Fiction transcendence are effectively a higher tier than any dimensional stacking.

This is factual because a lesser dimension only has the value of zero in a higher dimensional space, while a fiction would have a value of zero in every possible space and level of reality.

Therefore if you can see dimensional space as fiction you effectively are seeing any structure that follows dimensional guidelines, no matter how many values are there, as fake and equal to 0 in your reality.
 
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Fixxed said:
Like i say i dont think R>F is equal to nonexistence. Dream even if it just illusion it still exist, in thought or mental meaning. Nonexistence in other hand is literally not exist even in thought or mind, you cannot even think about that

I mean what is nonexistence??? Is it black, a darkness??? Then it not nonexistence at all

So the "atribute" of nonexistence is not equal to the atribute of fiction. Like from the very fundamental atribute of existence not equal to the atribute of reality
Click to expand...
In fact, the R>F relationship that Ultima wants to make works like "real-unreal" or "something-nothing".


According to current R>F standards, many characters only get from "seeing books or dream" nonsense, but, according to this, may change and many characters may lose their R>F.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
The thread in simple terms:

Ideal scenarios of R>F where there are no anti-feats and there is an unquestionable Reality to Fiction transcendence are effectively a higher tier than any dimensional stacking.

This is factual because a lesser dimension only has the value of zero in a higher dimensional space, while a fiction would have a value of zero in every possible space and level of reality.

Therefore if you can see dimensional space as fiction you effectively are seeing any structure that follows dimensional guidelines, no matter how many values are there, as fake and equal to 0 in your reality.
Click to expand...
Making our own world example, 2-D space should exist as a fundamental part of reality, we just can't perceive it. It is more extreme, but you can compare this situation to how we see time always going forward because of our perception of entropy in the visible world, but in microscopic physics time actually has a neutral direction.

A fiction meanwhile, no matter its complexity, does not exist no matter the level of reality that we try and look at. It is a fabrication and no matter how elaborate a fabrication is made it remains a fabrication in all layers of reality.

By the way this is also why the thread makes sense to me. Hope that this simplifies the idea. Math weak, comics strong and Hulk smash.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
Ideal scenarios of R>F where there are no anti-feats and there is an unquestionable Reality to Fiction transcendence are effectively a higher tier than any dimensional stacking.

This is factual because a lesser dimension only has the value of zero in a higher dimensional space, while a fiction would have a value of zero in every possible space and level of reality.

Therefore if you can see dimensional space as fiction you effectively are seeing any structure that follows dimensional guidelines, no matter how many values are there, as fake and equal to 0 in your reality.
Click to expand...
While this may be true, it should be limited only by the space and dimensionality available in your verse. If the existence of at most the 5th dimension is shown in the verse, the "quality of all dimensions" mentioned in that verse is only the part up to the 5th dimension, because besides the physical 5th dimension, there are even higher theoretical dimensions that you think of. The beings that we can imagine and model are still within the boundaries of the 5th dimension.

You are modeling with dimensions, so even if it is a higher dimension that you can imagine, 1000D, you will actually still imagine and model it within the dimensionality that cosmology limits you, that is, within the boundaries of the 5th dimension.

To give an example, we humans can only model 4-dimensional or higher-dimensional cubes in the 3rd dimension, within the boundaries of the 3rd dimension.

Even though we say "there are higher dimensions" and model them, they still cannot go beyond the 3rd dimension, there is always the same thing within the all concepts of dimensions

In short, we cannot go beyond the dimension shown in the verse. If we do this, we will have made NLF. That's why " being beyond the all concepts of dimensions" is just give you +1
 
Georredannea15 said:
In fact, the R>F relationship that Ultima wants to make works like "real-unreal" or "something-nothing".


According to current R>F standards, many characters only get from "seeing books or dream" nonsense, but, according to this, may change and many characters may lose their R>F.
Click to expand...
Then i dont think "R>F" is good word for that. Seeing as dream is R>F by it meaning, but yeah not nonexistence. I just think we can create some superiority criteria beyond "R>F" for something that literally perceive the whole world as nonexistence to it existence
 
Magicomethkuon said:
The thread in simple terms:

Ideal scenarios of R>F where there are no anti-feats and there is an unquestionable Reality to Fiction transcendence are effectively a higher tier than any dimensional stacking.

This is factual because a lesser dimension only has the value of zero in a higher dimensional space, while a fiction would have a value of zero in every possible space and level of reality.

Therefore if you can see dimensional space as fiction you effectively are seeing any structure that follows dimensional guidelines, no matter how many values are there, as fake and equal to 0 in your reality.
Click to expand...
0 is same value in every dimensional space. So there are no lower D is only have 0 in higher dimension and fiction is 0 in every possible dimension

And in fact fiction is not 0 value, it not nothing. It still have value in mind or thought, it not nonexistence
 
Georredannea15 said:
While this may be true, it should be limited only by the space and dimensionality available in your verse. If the existence of at most the 5th dimension is shown in the verse, the "quality of all dimensions" mentioned in that verse is only the part up to the 5th dimension, because besides the physical 5th dimension, there are even higher theoretical dimensions that you think of. The beings that we can imagine and model are still within the boundaries of the 5th dimension.

You are modeling with dimensions, so even if it is a higher dimension that you can imagine, 1000D, you will actually still imagine and model it within the dimensionality that cosmology limits you, that is, within the boundaries of the 5th dimension.

To give an example, we humans can only model 4-dimensional or higher-dimensional cubes in the 3rd dimension, within the boundaries of the 3rd dimension.

Even though we say "there are higher dimensions" and model them, they still cannot go beyond the 3rd dimension, there is always the same thing within the all concepts of dimensions

In short, we cannot go beyond the dimension shown in the verse. If we do this, we will have made NLF.
Click to expand...
That's an interesting observation! For me, that would depend on how the evaluated work treats its higher dimensions. If they function under similar principles, following the standard 4-D model of Space-Time (ergo, we are informed about them being infinitely higher spaces but otherwise following similar rules in a higher layer of space) then I think R>F transcendence is superior, no matter how many layers are stacked.

In the proposed thought, R>F would be qualitatively superior regardless of complexity. It's not transcending the complexity of what is in the model but the very rules that the model is bound to follow.

If the higher dimensions of a work are shown to be qualitatively better and invalidate the core structure, the laws designing all functions of the lower one, that changes things. Here higher dimensions wouldn't be a higher level but a higher state, making those below impossible to compare under similar principles because the dimensional climb would also be a climb of the very functionality of your world. This would be a work that shows higher dimensions in a way where they are also qualitatively superior and one level of such a theoretical dimension should be about the same as one jump in R>F transcendence. This aligns with Ultima's proposal as well.
 
For me, I've always thought it was more sensible to regard R>F as not really being a power at all (in most situations) due to reality equalization. Ultima's contention is that the verse treats it like a power and thus we should but I think that's very subjective.
 
So, there will be quite a few verses that will be downgraded, SRE, maybe WOD, Unsong, Manifold and basically all verses that currently depend on mathematics.
 
Fixxed said:
0 is same value in every dimensional space. So there are no lower D is only have 0 in higher dimension and fiction is 0 in every possible dimension

And in fact fiction is not 0 value, it not nothing. It still have value in mind or thought, it not nonexistence
Click to expand...
Fiction is something that our brain tricks us into thinking is there but when you think about it, it's not. The brain is piecing together a variety of real information to make up something that does not exist. A comic page is in reality paint, words and paper not actual characters seen inside. From a 3-D model, 2-D space would only have a value of zero in Height/Depth. Fiction would have a value of zero in all three aspects of length, width and height/depth.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
A fiction meanwhile, no matter its complexity, does not exist no matter the level of reality that we try and look at. It is a fabrication and no matter how elaborate a fabrication is made it remains a fabrication in all layers of reality.
Click to expand...
Which then creates a paradox.

The fabrication doesn’t exist, isn’t real, has a value of nothing, but it is still tiered. And the Real layer’s tier is dependent on the tier of the fabrication.

This new proposed system requires us to view the lower layers as nothing but at the same time having a value that can be tiered.
 
Georredannea15 said:
While this may be true, it should be limited only by the space and dimensionality available in your verse. If the existence of at most the 5th dimension is shown in the verse, the "quality of all dimensions" mentioned in that verse is only the part up to the 5th dimension, because besides the physical 5th dimension, there are even higher theoretical dimensions that you think of. The beings that we can imagine and model are still within the boundaries of the 5th dimension.

In short, we cannot go beyond the dimension shown in the verse. If we do this, we will have made NLF. That's why " being beyond the all concepts of dimensions" is just give you +1
Click to expand...
As Ultimate explained in the thread, dimensional quality is valid to any number of dimensions, because dimensions can be generalized as such and their quality doesn't change with a higher number of dimensions (It's just a 90º degree rotation of the same dimension in a way that is perpendicular to the other dimensions, it's not something of different quality as the basic nature remains the same, all n-dimensions are the same 1-dimensional lines).

If you are above all dimensions in a 4-dimensional setting, stating that it exists limited to a possible 5th dimension implies it's not beyond dimensions as a quality. It's like saying that something is beyond age, but just adding one year to the oldest thing in the universe, is just giving it age, not something that is really beyond age.

Basically, solving qualitative superiority using quantitative superiority is not using the quality, just assuming that the quantitative is a valid interpretation to it. And of course, there are a lot of universes that do this kind of thing (Like how many times something that is 5th-dimensional is stated to be beyond time and space in stuff like Marvel and DC), but just because franchises often do this kind of correlation doesn't mean that our systems need to just follow what they do. Instead they should be open to both verses that generalize the two as equal and also those that don't. All that the changes Ultima wants to make is accepting the logic of the difference between qualitative and quantitative and allowing franchises that do the correct approach a ranting that better fits their universes.
 
image.png


NERD-OFF!
NERD-OFF!
NERD-OFF!
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Which then creates a paradox.

The fabrication doesn’t exist, isn’t real, has a value of nothing, but it is still tiered. And the Real layer’s tier is dependent on the tier of the fabrication.

This new proposed system requires us to view the lower layers as nothing but at the same time having a value that can be tiered.
Click to expand...
It would be real to us from a dimensional perspective, but to these presumed characters of a higher state of being, it would relegate the structure of dimensional space to the ranks of fiction. I don't think there is a paradox, simply a scenario where all values of dimensions are made irrelevant. The tiering comes from the observers being powerful enough to treat something that under real world principles should be a scale in the way that we with the same real world scale treat actual fiction.

Having said that, I can already see a tidal wave of revisions trying to upgrade or downgrade things after this thread. Mercy on the staff's souls.
 
Executor_N0 said:
As Ultimate explained in the thread, dimensional quality is valid to any number of dimensions, because dimensions can be generalized as such and their quality doesn't change with a higher number of dimensions (It's just a 90º degree rotation of the same dimension in a way that is perpendicular to the other dimensions, it's not something of different quality as the basic nature remains the same, all n-dimensions are the same 1-dimensional lines).

If you are above all dimensions in a 4-dimensional setting, stating that it exists limited to a possible 5th dimension implies it's not beyond dimensions as a quality. It's like saying that something is beyond age, but just adding one year to the oldest thing in the universe, is just giving it age, not something that is really beyond age.

Basically, solving qualitative superiority using quantitative superiority is not using the quality, just assuming that the quantitative is a valid interpretation to it. And of course, there are a lot of universes that do this kind of thing (Like how many times something that is 5th-dimensional is stated to be beyond time and space in stuff like Marvel and DC), but just because franchises often do this kind of correlation doesn't mean that our systems need to just follow what they do. Instead they should be open to both verses that generalize the two as equal and also those that don't. All that the changes Ultima wants to make is accepting the logic of the difference between qualitative and quantitative and allowing franchises that do the correct approach a ranting that better fits their universes.
Click to expand...
But to do this is to go beyond the dimensions that the verse shows us. This is where I disagreed with Ultima because the dimensions that the verse shows us are what we actually have and here we can call "the quality of dimensions", because in the verse, the existence of other dimensions (higher dimensions) has never been shown to us and it would be very unhealthy to "assume" that they exist when their existence is not known. .



The simplest example of this is the way we follow in the concepts of dimension. "All dimension concepts" are limited to what is shown in the verse, because more dimensions that can be included in this concept are not shown to us in the verse.

And from this point on, all theoretical dimensions that we will think and model will still be limited to the dimension shown in cosmology and will be modeled within that cosmology and limited there.

we humans can only model 4-dimensional or higher-dimensional cubes in the 3rd dimension, within the boundaries of the 3rd dimension.
I still think this way. I prefer to walk on a safe path that I know, rather than on a path that I don't know and assume.
 
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