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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Phsccarvalho said:
I think I thought something similar.

Like, if a verse shows R > f but also talks about higher dimensions?

Like, there is R > f but the guy saying that theoretically he would get 1-A because of this, he was talking about higher dimensions in the sense of dimensional axes or higher dimension in a generic way to say that there is one after the 4D time.
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As I explained before
The metaphysical realm that sees the realm below as physical/fiction can by physical to itself in regards to an even higher realm. Like in Marvel where the House of Idea transcends infinite hierarchies of dream and reality, and yet is just the baseline for an even higher hierarchy.

It's possible to have a reality above certain fiction that has physically higher realities to itself. That is also explained by Ultima in the OP IIRC.
 
Lynieryz said:
What if a verse is tier 0 through R>F and then presents dimensional transcendence as something above R>F.
¹The dimensions of this verse are undeniably spatial.
²The entire R>F occurs in the third dimension.
³Anti-feats for R>F are non-existent.
Click to expand...
Apparently meaningless because all spatial tiers will be below 1-A. So they’ll get the tier for R>F and that will be as high as it goes.

The next tier would be another layer of R>F which from the sounds of it, the verse doesn’t have.
 
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Ultima said this:

“A character's "realness" is inherent insofar as their state of existence is not something that (Without supernatural intervention, at least) can mingle with the "lesser" states, and vice-versa. By that token, an author character cannot reside in the fiction (They can't cease to be real) and the fictional character cannot reside in reality (They can't become what the higher world recognizes as "real")”
Click to expand...

If R>F is this strict, then a lot of things will not make the cut. Wouldn’t even Marvel get downgraded? Lots of characters tend to roam around the higher levels for funsies.
 
Hm, thinking about it more...

What about cases where an inherent property of the cosmology is that it changes one's existential state based on what plane they enter? For example, entering a higher plane would make you more "real", not as a result of your own power, but because that's just how that world works.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Ultima said this:



If R>F is this strict, then a lot of things will not make the cut. Wouldn’t even Marvel get downgraded? Lots of characters tend to roam around the higher levels for funsies.
Click to expand...
Notice how I said "without supernatural intervention." Under those lenses, having an ability (An actual one, not one we simply assume exists to handwave something) that allows you to ascend though higher qualitative layers isn't an anti-feat.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
How would this affect omnipresent characters?
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Characters that completely permeate multiple layers would really just scale to the highest one.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Hm, thinking about it more...

What about cases where an inherent property of the cosmology is that it changes one's existential state based on what plane they enter? For example, entering a higher plane would make you more "real", not as a result of your own power, but because that's just how that world works.
Click to expand...
If that's relevant enough for the tier of a character, they could receive a "Varies" rating, if they can shift planes at will or somesuch. Umineko is an example of that.
 
Frankly, I think it unnecessarily goes far beyond the criteria shown in the verse, ignores what the verse shows, so it is a bit inconsistent. I think there needs to be certain context and requirements within the verse to qualify for 1-A with this type of R>F. Similar to all concepts of dimensions but also not quite the same.

In short... i guess it's suspicious, Especially doing this when there are more problems.... Mehhh, I guess I can give input if I can get permission lol

1129166506840821830.png
 
EndlessWords said:
For me the transcendence of SCP-3812 is extremely powerful because it does not depend on anything. But as I understand it, this could contradict the qualitative superiority between the layers because each higher layer should not be attainable unless there is a metaphysical interaction between the essence of the transcendent and the layer. But I'm not sure so we'll see.
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Actually, the reason he become 1-A in the first place was due his transcendence is qualitative one. His transcendence over layers fictionalize everything in the layers below. I think his tier would't change much, but the thing will affect higher entities specifically Pickman's Proposal and above.
 
Andika_CL_atmadja said:
hmmm i have new question

let say in some verse, there are already exist both quantitative superiority and qualitative superiority.

but quantitative superiority only 5-D or Low 1-C cosmology. But there is character that has qualitative superiority. like legit transcend to higher existence without lower power.
Can this character get 1-A tier ? since i believe qualitative superiority is generalization of N-higher dimension or n-axis ?
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I think I could guess the character, but not here. As for the problem, if this character meets all of these criteria and is not proven to be truly geometrically higher dimensional, this is a qualitative superiority and is placed in tier 1-A.
 
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I think the thread works well. I also imagine that R>F standards will be very strict before a character can be given 1-A without question. Not that knowing this is going to stop me from making jokes about the smallest 4th-wall break meaning 1-A at every opportunity.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Notice how I said "without supernatural intervention." Under those lenses, having an ability (An actual one, not one we simply assume exists to handwave something) that allows you to ascend though higher qualitative layers isn't an anti-feat.
Click to expand...
I noticed what you said. To me its just that how many works of fictions introduce a very specific mechanic that is for having a lower layer character interacting or existing in the higher layer?

Most of it, is “toon force” “got stronger” “trancended” or got teleported. Unless those would qualify as supernatural intervention.
 
Andika_CL_atmadja said:
from what i am understand based on premise of "Category error". I think the fundamental problems is.

fiction has several properties/attribute. Reality also has several properties/attribute. Each verse has it's own definition or semantics regarding those attribute. Sometime try to connect those attribute using R>F (using words statement) can cause category error.
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Like i say i dont think R>F is equal to nonexistence. Dream even if it just illusion it still exist, in thought or mental meaning. Nonexistence in other hand is literally not exist even in thought or mind, you cannot even think about that

I mean what is nonexistence??? Is it black, a darkness??? Then it not nonexistence at all

So the "atribute" of nonexistence is not equal to the atribute of fiction. Like from the very fundamental atribute of existence not equal to the atribute of reality
 
Fixxed said:
Like i say i dont think R>F is equal to nonexistence. Dream even if it just illusion it still exist, in thought or mental meaning. Nonexistence in other hand is literally not exist even in thought or mind, you cannot even think about that

I mean what is nonexistence??? Is it black, a darkness??? Then it not nonexistence at all

So the "atribute" of nonexistence is not equal to the atribute of fiction. Like from the very fundamental atribute of existence not equal to the atribute of reality
Click to expand...
Nonexistence can be defined as lacking. Visualization of nonexistence is a fool's errand.
 
Greatsage13th said:
Nonexistence can be defined as lacking. Visualization of nonexistence is a fool's errand.
Click to expand...
Then difference between dimensionality is also same as perceive as nonexistence the lower one by that logic. Just as 2D is lacking volume for be 3D, 3D also lacking some spatial axis or time for be 4D

What i mean in here is the equalization between nonexistence and fiction/illusion. If you think just "lacking" is nonexistence then everything is nonexistence, dark is lack of light cool is lack of hot yeah fiction is lack of reality.... the nonexistence in here i mean the opposite of existence it self
 
 
Gasper said:
Is this going to impact Cthulhu Mythos in anyway? If i understand the tiering correctly, it should get higher into tier 0?
Click to expand...
If it's mostly mathematics, then their tier would plunge to High 1-B+. If it is based on infinite, inaccessible reality-unreality transcendenses, it would be higher into tier 0
 
Greatsage13th said:
If it's mostly mathematics, then their tier would plunge to High 1-B+. If it is based on infinite, inaccessible reality-unreality transcendenses, it would be higher into tier 0
Click to expand...
It has nothing to do with mathematics other than two statements of other gods being beyond mathematics as a whole.

It does however, have infinite hierarchy of spatial dimensions, higher one views the lower one as infinitesimal in comparison and then it has infinite gates the higher views the lower one as illusion or "imperfection" or even as Shadow.
 
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Gasper said:
It does however, have infinite hierarchy of spatial dimensions, higher one views the lower one as infinitesimal in comparison and then it has infinite gates the higher views the lower one as illusion or "imperfection" or even as Shadow.
Click to expand...
That's mathematics.
 
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