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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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So a reality that views another reality as nonexistent that views another reality as nonexistent would be 2 times over baseline 1-A?
 
HigashikataJobin said:
Umineko is the first one that come to my mind when I think about this CRT because the entire cosmology is based on R>F.
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Doesn't the transcendence of the characters contradict the qualitative superiority between the layers? Or is this not a problem because transcendence is spiritual/mental, not physical?
 
Interested with category error since it can be applied to many case.

Honestly i would like to think that R>F only applicable to It's own cosmology setting and it does not make any sense to bring it in versus battle.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
Yeah basically. But what if someone like scp 3812 sees an infinite number of r>f as irrelevant and in the end fully transcends them?
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I'm not sure, but doesn't the transcendence of SCP-3812 contradict the qualitative difference between the layers? As far as I know, SCP-3812 transcends all layers because it was created to do so from a lower layer. Unless there's an explanation for the nature of its transcendence that links it to a higher power/concept. If there's no problem with his transcandance, then he should keep the same level.
 
EndlessWords said:
I'm not sure, but doesn't the transcendence of SCP-3812 contradict the qualitative difference between the layers? As far as I know, SCP-3812 transcends all layers because it was created to do so from a lower layer. Unless there's an explanation for the nature of its transcendence that links it to a higher power/concept. If there's no problem with his transcandance, then he should keep the same level.
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No it doesn't contradict it. It's just his power to surpass this difference. It was created to do that from a higher layer.
 
In my mind regarding R>F stuff, the problem with it, in the past we also use Quantitative superiority or mathematics consideration to determine if R>F was valid or not. So i feel like it makes R>F independence obsolete.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
No it doesn't contradict it. It's just his power to surpass this difference. It was created to do that from a higher layer.
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Well, I may have missed some of the proposals for the new version of the tiering system, but my understanding was that the difference between the layers was comparable to that between reality and unreality, and that transcendence and interaction could only be achieved through a metaphysical mechanism.

For example, if the essences of the characters are intimately linked to God, then their transcendences towards God is not an anti-feat, whereas if the characters transcend higher layers with the power of a lower layer, this contradicts qualitative superiority.
 
EndlessWords said:
Well, I may have missed some of the proposals for the new version of the tiering system, but my understanding was that the difference between the layers was comparable to that between reality and unreality, and that transcendence and interaction could only be achieved through a metaphysical mechanism.

For example, if the essences of the characters are intimately linked to God, then their transcendences towards God is not an anti-feat, whereas if the characters transcend higher layers with the power of a lower layer, this contradicts qualitative superiority.
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In that case it wouldn't know. It's his power to do that. His power is to surpass his previous strenght continuously which let's him reach the peak of the hierarchy.
 
I dont think perceive as fiction is equal to perceive as nonexistence. Fiction is still exist, even if it just a imagination, but it still exist in mental meaning, just as thought. It not nonexistence

So the empty set assumption i think is false
 
Executor_N0 said:
About that
There isn't a single type of "layer"

Summarizing, there's both dimensional layers of higher dimensional values and metaphysical layers of undimensional values.

The standard reality is assumed to be physical and existing in what we already accept as 3+1 space-time dimensions.

Higher physical reality would still be 4+1, 4+2, and so on. Even if r>f is used as a metaphor to represent dimensional difference.

Truly metaphysical transcendence/r>f/qualitative superiority is a completely different type of hierarchy that generalizes any n-dimensional space from what is "physical/fiction" as qualitatively not being a thing that affects the higher layer.

So no, just by using r>f or metaphysical elements won't be enough for Tier 1-A if the series doesn't depict a true physical transcendence.

It'll be mostly case-by-case depending in the nature of each individual franchise and their cosmology. Sometimes it'll be very clear, sometimes it'll be very complex and contradictory.
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and I believe it would cause massive war in CRT thread.
 
EndlessWords said:
Well, I may have missed some of the proposals for the new version of the tiering system, but my understanding was that the difference between the layers was comparable to that between reality and unreality, and that transcendence and interaction could only be achieved through a metaphysical mechanism.

For example, if the essences of the characters are intimately linked to God, then their transcendences towards God is not an anti-feat, whereas if the characters transcend higher layers with the power of a lower layer, this contradicts qualitative superiority.
Click to expand...
so this is why ultima bring empty set stuff ? if i transcend infinite hierarchy of empty set then i am basically still empty set, right ?
 
Also R>F are greatly different in context of many verse settings. There are many interpretation what reality and what fiction is.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
In that case it wouldn't know. It's his power to do that. His power is to surpass his previous strenght continuously which let's him reach the peak of the hierarchy.
Click to expand...
For me the transcendence of SCP-3812 is extremely powerful because it does not depend on anything. But as I understand it, this could contradict the qualitative superiority between the layers because each higher layer should not be attainable unless there is a metaphysical interaction between the essence of the transcendent and the layer. But I'm not sure so we'll see.
 
Honestly I agree with Ultima's thread. R>F was always above dimensionality in my eyes.

That being said, the tiering system should accommodate to allow more tiers of characters R>F characters because if I understand well, it goes from "Finite R>F transcendences" to "Infinite R>F transcendences" in a single tier

It should have more sub tiers just like how we threat spacetimes.
 
Andika_CL_atmadja said:
so this is why ultima bring empty set stuff ? if i transcend infinite hierarchy of empty set then i am basically still empty set, right ?
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If I understood his explanation correctly, he said that a fiction was not comparable to an object of lower dimension but to an empty set: a true nonexistence.
So the qualitative difference is not a difference of a higher dimension on a lower dimension, but that between "something" and "nothing"
 
Fixxed said:
I dont think perceive as fiction is equal to perceive as nonexistence. Fiction is still exist, even if it just a imagination, but it still exist in mental meaning, just as thought. It not nonexistence

So the empty set assumption i think is false
Click to expand...
from what i am understand based on premise of "Category error". I think the fundamental problems is.

fiction has several properties/attribute. Reality also has several properties/attribute. Each verse has it's own definition or semantics regarding those attribute. Sometime try to connect those attribute using R>F (using words statement) can cause category error.
 
Andika_CL_atmadja said:
from what i am understand based on premise of "Category error". I think the fundamental problems is.

fiction has several properties/attribute. Reality also has several properties/attribute. Each verse has it's own definition or semantics regarding those attribute. Sometime try to connect those attribute using R>F (using words statement) can cause category error.
Click to expand...
for example "god perceive this reality like dream/illusion that can go "poof". Can this statement equal to 5D>4D or reality >unreality ?
 
EndlessWords said:
Reality > Unreality if the qualitative superiority is not contradicted, otherwise it would be a dimensional layer.
Click to expand...
btw so if i transcend to higher existence based on power of lower existence/fiction would that mean i am contradict to QS ? so basically i don't transcend anything ?
 
Andika_CL_atmadja said:
btw so if i transcend to higher existence based on power of lower existence/fiction would that mean i am contradict to QS ? so basically i don't transcend anything ?
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I was talking about regarding SCP-3812 previously.
I'm not sure but I think it would imply that your transcendence is only quantitative and not qualitative.
 
Ok say there’s a reality that’s already 1-A. This reality is seen as mere fiction by authors, who exist above an “interface” compared to a canvas in which they can freely create edit and erase anything (be it stories with characters, beyond dimensional structures, etc.) And then, there’s a plane superior to even that, a sea of concepts that predates and stand above everything with no origin nor ending, non-existence and existence, reality and unreality (its nature is completely different) Is this 1-a, High 1-A or higher (by this new system)
 
hmmm i have new question

let say in some verse, there are already exist both quantitative superiority and qualitative superiority.

but quantitative superiority only 5-D or Low 1-C cosmology. But there is character that has qualitative superiority. like legit transcend to higher existence without lower power.
Can this character get 1-A tier ? since i believe qualitative superiority is generalization of N-higher dimension or n-axis ?
 
What if a verse is tier 0 through R>F and then presents dimensional transcendence as something above R>F.
¹The dimensions of this verse are undeniably spatial.
²The entire R>F occurs in the third dimension.
³Anti-feats for R>F are non-existent.
 
Lynieryz said:
What if a verse is tier 0 through R>F and then presents dimensional transcendence as something above R>F.
¹The dimensions of this verse are undeniably spatial.
²The entire R>F occurs in the third dimension.
³Anti-feats for R>F are non-existent.
Click to expand...
I think I thought something similar.

Like, if a verse shows R > f but also talks about higher dimensions?

Like, there is R > f but the guy saying that theoretically he would get 1-A because of this, he was talking about higher dimensions in the sense of dimensional axes or higher dimension in a generic way to say that there is one after the 4D time.
 
Iiliminal said:
Ok say there’s a reality that’s already 1-A. This reality is seen as mere fiction by authors, who exist above an “interface” compared to a canvas in which they can freely create edit and erase anything (be it stories with characters, beyond dimensional structures, etc.) And then, there’s a plane superior to even that, a sea of concepts that predates and stand above everything with no origin nor ending, non-existence and existence, reality and unreality (its nature is completely different) Is this 1-a, High 1-A or higher (by this new system)
Click to expand...
I would say that the sea would be an upper layer in tier 1-A or High 1-A.
 
Andika_CL_atmadja said:
hmmm i have new question

let say in some verse, there are already exist both quantitative superiority and qualitative superiority.

but quantitative superiority only 5-D or Low 1-C cosmology. But there is character that has qualitative superiority. like legit transcend to higher existence without lower power.
Can this character get 1-A tier ?
Click to expand...
Yes he would be 1-A.

since i believe qualitative superiority is generalization of N-higher dimension or n-axis ?
Click to expand...
No, qualitative superiority would be beyond all the mathematics that would culminate at High 1-B
 
Lynieryz said:
What if a verse is tier 0 through R>F and then presents dimensional transcendence as something above R>F.
¹The dimensions of this verse are undeniably spatial.
²The entire R>F occurs in the third dimension.
³Anti-feats for R>F are non-existent.
Click to expand...
I asked myself the same question and currently don't have an answer. I imagine that this could contradict all the qualitative superiority of the verse, or not?
 
I feel like the wiki should make more tiers to categorize all these new R>F characters because right now we would jump from finite R>F transcendences (Outerversal) to infinite R>F transcendences (Outerversal+) in the span of 1 tier.

Like, with spacetimes/timelines we categorize them into 4 different tiers depending on the amount. Universe+, Low multiversal, Multiversal and Multiversal+

With spatial dimensions we categorize them into 6 different tiers depending on the amount Low complex multiversal, Complex multiversal, High complex multiversal, Hyperversal, High hyperversal and Low outerversal.

It feels weird and inconsistent with how the tiering system is, to have one tier for finite R>F transcendences, there should be more.
 
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