• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Tyranno223 said:
Pretty sure it would qualify for 1-A due to R>F
Click to expand...
Well, i see that a lot of people think you only need one R>F difference to reach 1-A but i'm pretty sure that's not what Ultima is talking about at all. If anything, it would be even harder to get 1-A now. Low 2-C up to High 1-B stays the same.
 
Gasper said:
Well, i see that a lot of people think you only need one R>F difference to reach 1-A but i'm pretty sure that's not what Ultima is talking about at all. If anything, it would be even harder to get 1-A now. Low 2-C up to High 1-B stays the same.
Click to expand...
Qualitative superiority would automatically be 1-A. R>F is qualitative superiority so yes only one R>F difference would be 1-A.
 
Gasper said:
Well, i see that a lot of people think you only need one R>F difference to reach 1-A but i'm pretty sure that's not what Ultima is talking about at all. If anything, it would be even harder to get 1-A now. Low 2-C up to High 1-B stays the same.
Click to expand...
From what I read it is one layer of R>F that gets you to 1-A. Quantitative is High 1-B.
 
Lynieryz said:
83cmo2.jpg
Click to expand...
Forgot High 1-B but otherwise lol
 
Gasper said:
Did you?
Or did you misunderstand it?
Click to expand...
Don't gaslight me bud.
That is to say: Dimensional jumps and differences in cardinality would simply all peak at High 1-B, with perhaps a High 1-B+ tier for infinite-dimensional spaces that are larger than countably infinite dimensions. Meanwhile, strictly qualitative superiorities, such as Reality-Fiction Transcendences, transcendences over dimensionality, and etc. would land at 1-A.
Click to expand...
 
Greatsage13th said:
For example, you imagined yourself eating pineapple on pizza. Does that mean you ate pineapple on pizza?
Click to expand...
I dont know the relevance of that with my argument. But that not matter it not exist physically, it exist mentally in imagination, therefore it not nonexist at all
 
Last edited:
Georredannea15 said:
This is where I disagreed with Ultima because the dimensions that the verse shows us are what we actually have and here we can call "the quality of dimensions", because in the verse, the existence of other dimensions (higher dimensions) has never been shown to us and it would be very unhealthy to "assume" that they exist when their existence is not known. .
Click to expand...
It doesn't need to. Because any number of dimensions is generalized to be the same thing because they really are. If someone is beyond dimensions as a concept, Ultima isn't assuming that this universe with 5 physical dimensions has infinite others it has to transcend, it's just that it transcends dimensions as a physical extension. If we assume this is 6th-dimensional, then by pure logic we can say it's not really beyond dimensions, because we are just saying it becomes something akin to 6th-dimensional, when it goes against its quality. Giving something beyond a logical hierarchy something that is only an extension of said hierarchy is the same as saying it's not beyond that logical hierarchy, which is Ultima's point.

There are nuances to this, of course. There are a lot of franchises that do what I like to call "false metaphysics", which is when instead of something truly metaphysical, it's only an unknown extent of what is physical. Any work that puts stuff like Platonic forms with higher dimensions (Such as Morrison's DC works or all those religions that use pseudo-science to say stuff like "angels live in the 5th dimension" are like that). For those cases, they of course are just an extension of the physical instead of something truly metaphyisical, and Ultima isn't requesting to change that. He merely requests that works that don't use that kind of logic are forced to do so when that logic doesn't work when pushed to its most logical consequence.

In the end, it's not something focused on just pushing high tiers to any metaphysics reference or r>f usage, even though a lot of people looking forward to that thread just want an excuse to make a CRT giving their favorite verses 1-A ranting. It's merely about accepting a logical consequence of the nature of metaphysical and qualitative superiority to give a more faithful representation of works that do that kind of stuff.

Basically, think of it like saying that when Proclus explained infinite and eternity he was just saying stuff like "adding one higher dimension", when doing that would only expand the physical representation of what he wanted to transcend, instead of just giving the transcendence he was implying. In the end, it doesn't matter how complex any given physical system is, they are still physical and bounded by that logical hierarchy.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
Fiction is something that our brain tricks us into thinking is there but when you think about it, it's not. The brain is piecing together a variety of real information to make up something that does not exist. A comic page is in reality paint, words and paper not actual characters seen inside. From a 3-D model, 2-D space would only have a value of zero in Height/Depth. Fiction would have a value of zero in all three aspects of length, width and height/depth.
Click to expand...
Does not exist physically dont mean it literally nonexistence. Ultima based his assumption on empty set, where is only 0 there are no more that is equal to nonexistence he say.
And fiction is just some information that take place in mind, it is abstract not nonexistence. Some verse make the fiction is a lower physicall reality that are just a dream from higher one. In fact 2D is not even physical compare to our 3D, is just a geometry theory and we made them into lower physicall "world" when we put it in physicall or 3D
 
Gasper said:
OVER A DIMENSIONALITY. Can you read.
Not that it literally jumps f*cking 10 tiers. Lol
Click to expand...
Transcendence over dimensionality and R>F are treated as two separate instances of transcendences that also achieve essentially the same result that qualifies for 1-A.

It's separated by a comma to indicate seperate stuff which would qualify for 1-A under his system.
 
Number one, chill. Number two, read the commas. R>F OR over a dimensionality
Gasper said:
OVER A DIMENSIONALITY. Can you read.
Not that it literally jumps f*cking 10 tiers. Lol
Click to expand...
Meanwhile, strictly qualitative superiorities, such as Reality-Fiction Transcendences, transcendences over dimensionality, and etc. would land at 1-A.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Transcendence over dimensionality and R>F are treated as two separate instances of transcendences that also achieve essentially the same result that qualifies for 1-A.

It's separated by a comma to indicate separate stuff which would qualify for 1-A under his system.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about blud, do you seriously think Ultima will let most characters get 1-A tiers only due to one R>F transcendence?
 
Interested with category error in general. For example

  • Dodging speed of space
  • bear the weight of conceptual souls
  • etc

probably happen a lot in Web Novels
 
Executor_N0 said:
It doesn't need to. Because any number of dimensions is generalized to be the same thing because they really are. If someone is beyond dimensions as a concept, Ultima isn't assuming that this universe with 5 physical dimensions has infinite others it has to transcend, it's just that it transcends dimensions as a physical extension. If we assume this is 6th-dimensional, then by pure logic we can say it's not really beyond dimensions, because we are just saying it becomes something akin to 6th-dimensional, when it goes against its quality. Giving something beyond a logical hierarchy something that is only an extension of said hierarchy is the same as saying it's not beyond that logical hierarchy, which is Ultima's point.

There are nuances to this, of course. There are a lot of franchises that do what I like to call "false metaphysics", which is when instead of something truly metaphysical, it's only an unknown extent of what is physical. Any work that puts stuff like Platonic forms with higher dimensions (Such as Morrison's DC works or all those religions that use pseudo-science to say stuff like "angels live in the 5th dimension" are like that). For those cases, they of course are just an extension of the physical instead of something truly metaphyisical, and Ultima isn't requesting to change that. He merely requests that works that don't use that kind of logic are forced to do so when that logic doesn't work when pushed to its most logical consequence.

In the end, it's not something focused on just pushing high tiers to any metaphysics reference or r>f usage, even though a lot of people looking forward to that thread just want an excuse to make a CRT giving their favorite verses 1-A ranting. It's merely about accepting a logical consequence of the nature of metaphysical and qualitative superiority to give a more faithful representation of works that do that kind of stuff.

Basically, think of it like saying that when Proclus explained infinite and eternity he was just saying stuff like "adding one higher dimension", when doing that would only expand the physical representation of what he wanted to transcend, instead of just giving the transcendence he was implying. In the end, it doesn't matter how complex any given physical system is, they are still physical and bounded by that logical hierarchy.
Click to expand...
I don't think it really needs to be expanded unless it's shown in the verse that it can be expanded. I have already written my reasons above, in fact there are more reasons, but the system they are trying to implement is like forcibly loading 100 kilograms onto a 50 kilogram vehicle.
 
Georredannea15 said:
But to do this is to go beyond the dimensions that the verse shows us. This is where I disagreed with Ultima because the dimensions that the verse shows us are what we actually have and here we can call "the quality of dimensions", because in the verse, the existence of other dimensions (higher dimensions) has never been shown to us and it would be very unhealthy to "assume" that they exist when their existence is not known. .



The simplest example of this is the way we follow in the concepts of dimension. "All dimension concepts" are limited to what is shown in the verse, because more dimensions that can be included in this concept are not shown to us in the verse.

And from this point on, all theoretical dimensions that we will think and model will still be limited to the dimension shown in cosmology and will be modeled within that cosmology and limited there.

we humans can only model 4-dimensional or higher-dimensional cubes in the 3rd dimension, within the boundaries of the 3rd dimension.
I still think this way. I prefer to walk on a safe path that I know, rather than on a path that I don't know and assume.
Click to expand...
So this is like Logic inductive vs empirical statistic ?

in the end you need "data" to prove that QS (1-A stuff) Valid and consistent to inductive logic.
 
Gasper said:
So, there will be quite a few verses that will be downgraded, SRE, maybe WOD, Unsong, Manifold and basically all verses that currently depend on mathematics.
Click to expand...
WoD does not depend on Mathematics.

Almost the entire thing is Theologically based and Redpilled, Mathematics only really comes in because Technocrats exist and a bunch of other scientific stuff is thrown in for good measure
 
Udlmaster said:
WoD does not depend on Mathematics.

Almost the entire thing is Theologically based and Redpilled, Mathematics only really comes in because Technocrats exist and a bunch of other scientific stuff is thrown in for good measure
Click to expand...
Oh no i know, i meant some certain aspects maybe.
 
DarkGrath said:
Ah, so this is where the peasants spend their hours of luxury. How indubitably boorish. sips from Vs Battles brand champagne glass with British intent
Click to expand...
Btw can i make commoners thread for immeasurable speed topics ? or such thread already exist ?
 
Magicomethkuon said:
It would be real to us from a dimensional perspective, but to these presumed characters of a higher state of being, it would relegate the structure of dimensional space to the ranks of fiction. I don't think there is a paradox, simply a scenario where all values of dimensions are made irrelevant. The tiering comes from the observers being powerful enough to treat something that under real world principles should be a scale in the way that we with the same real world scale treat actual fiction.

Having said that, I can already see a tidal wave of revisions trying to upgrade or downgrade things after this thread. Mercy on the staff's souls.
Click to expand...
True but thats requiring we assume the lower level is akin to us rather than the higher level.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

  • Locked
VS Battles Is Nonsense / Delete My Account
Replies
6
Views
3K
Dragonite007
Dragonite007
demonwarrior2266
Application of Ultima's CRT
Replies
4
Views
2K
Hypertornado099
Hypertornado099
  • Locked
What would debunk the basis of the VSBW tiering system
Replies
6
Views
2K
Urshani
Boy.Line
Qualification issues.
Replies
7
Views
643
TheOrangeGuy09
TheOrangeGuy09
Ultima_Reality
  • Locked
On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System
12 13 14
Replies
530
Views
178K
Ultima_Reality
Ultima_Reality
Back
Top