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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Iamunanimousinthat said:
"The lower layer is literal unreality/nonexistence while the higher layer is reality/existence." would be the criteria as Ultima said. Going just by that, any character in the higher layer that interacts with the lower layer would be an anti-feat and disqualify the verse for R>F transcendence. You could see a bunch of infinite hierarchies becomes just regular infinite multiverses.
Click to expand...
For me, if we consider that a lower layer is literally NOTHING, then the layer that transcends it is nothing special because it transcends nothing at all.
And I don't understand why a character would be considered more powerful than other characters who are "unreal" to him. Something real can't fight and defeat something unreal (unless that something real is completely insane).
 
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The moment you get into something that feels as strange as categorizing many levels of infinities, it becomes something that is complicated by nature. You won't have a conversation about those topics with anyone walking the street, this type of thing has been basically discussed by philosophers trying to make sense of religion and transcendence over centuries with various discussions that are basically people writing books with more than a thousand pages that gets discussed by other people making their analysis and answers to the books with more thousands of pages.

If anything, the fact that we have yet to make a thread with one thousand pages discussing any of these topics shows we are literally 1000x less detailed than the philosophers that lived 2 thousand years ago that thought the same.
 
Executor_N0 said:
The moment you get into something that feels as strange as categorizing many levels of infinities, it becomes something that is complicated by nature. You won't have a conversation about those topics with anyone walking the street, this type of thing has been basically discussed by philosophers trying to make sense of religion and transcendence over centuries with various discussions that are basically people writing books with more than a thousand pages that gets discussed by other people making their analysis and answers to the books with more thousands of pages.

If anything, the fact that we have yet to make a thread with one thousand pages discussing any of these topics shows we are literally 1000x less detailed than the philosophers that lived 2 thousand years ago that thought the same.
Click to expand...
Just cap everything at universe level and for everything else toss a coin to your witcher.
 
EndlessWords said:
This is not what was proposed. But I agree with you that the bottom layer isn't basically nothing, so the difference between the two layers is definitely quantitative.
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No it's not because while it's not nothing for the people actually residing in it, it is for the people that see it as fiction and that's the whole argument. It's not some dimensional stuff like lines and cubes, but rather something irrelevant.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
It's nothint to the ones above it. Not fundamentally nothing.
Click to expand...
So we are just tiering subjectivity then?

dimensions, size, mass, and energy are all objective quantities we can guage each piece of fiction for, across the board.

R>F Transcendence and Qualitative Superiority is not objective and very subjective, and relies on the individual perceptions of characters in their own stories. We can’t compare two different characters from two different stories without making up an arbitrary assumption about levels of reality being universal to all fiction.

Deagonx brought up a good point with this chart:



This is an equally valid way of tiering the subjectiveness of “realness”.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
Just cap everything at universe level and for everything else toss a coin to your witcher.
Click to expand...
And that is a perfectly valid approach.

Something people need to understand more is that VsBattles isn't the one big truth about fictional cosmology classifications or anything like that. It's one wiki with a lot of people who are trying to figure out common ground on how to make this work that changes over time with the supporters.

In the same way we need to be open to franchises with totally different cosmologies, we also need to be open to the idea that there are other systems that are less or more comprehensive than ours. Which one we'll follow will just depend on its special name that will suggest a change and how many people will agree or not.

In the end, if someone thinks they know a better system, they are totally free to start their own website featuring that system. It's like if someone sees there's a problem with the comic book industry and instead of just making their own comic book, they think they need to enter Marvel or DC, discuss with the editor-in-chief, and somehow change the entire landscape with their brilliant idea. Of course, it might happen depending on who you are (Like when DC got Jack Kirby and they just went with "do whatever you want" and he made the New Gods), but I don't think everyone would have this luck.

But basically, the website mods don't see their work as the one truth (At least not the ones I interacted with), so any system can be true as long as it's self-consistent.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
No it's not because while it's not nothing for the people actually residing in it, it is for the people that see it as fiction and that's the whole argument. It's not some dimensional stuff like lines and cubes, but rather something irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Either the bottom layer is totally unreal, or it's real, unless there are "degrees of reality" I don't know about.
I also don't understand why being real means being more powerful, a real being can't face and defeat a being that is totally unreal to him.
 
I basically always took the basic setting of any fiction as being the real world. Anything above that is either dimensionally above or R>F. So any characters that has these relations with their own verse gets them at any other verse.

Also some similar arguments can be made about the dimensional system. There isn't much in real life as to what 5-D would be. Stuff I remember said stuff would need to be smaller to operate at higher dimensions.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
So we are just tiering subjectivity then?

dimensions, size, mass, and energy are all objective quantities we can guage each piece of fiction for, across the board.

R>F Transcendence and Qualitative Superiority is not objective and very subjective, and relies on the individual perceptions of characters in their own stories. We can’t compare two different characters from two different stories without making up an arbitrary assumption about levels of reality being universal to all fiction.

Deagonx brought up a good point with this chart:



This is an equally valid way of tiering the subjectiveness of “realness”.
Click to expand...
I saw you saying that the unreal affecting the real would be a great anti-deed.

But for example
Looney Tunes? That the drawings come out of their own drawings and affect the "Real World"

It is very explicit how their world is treated by the animators, as there are several episodes that show that they are in something like an animation tool and the animators use various tools in the application.

Would they qualify for 1-A? And would them jumping/jumping into the world of animators be an anti-feat?
 
Executor_N0 said:
And that is a perfectly valid approach.

Something people need to understand more is that VsBattles isn't the one big truth about fictional cosmology classifications or anything like that. It's one wiki with a lot of people who are trying to figure out common ground on how to make this work that changes over time with the supporters.

In the same way we need to be open to franchises with totally different cosmologies, we also need to be open to the idea that there are other systems that are less or more comprehensive than ours. Which one we'll follow will just depend on its special name that will suggest a change and how many people will agree or not.

In the end, if someone thinks they know a better system, they are totally free to start their own website featuring that system. It's like if someone sees there's a problem with the comic book industry and instead of just making their own comic book, they think they need to enter Marvel or DC, discuss with the editor-in-chief, and somehow change the entire landscape with their brilliant idea. Of course, it might happen depending on who you are (Like when DC got Jack Kirby and they just went with "do whatever you want" and he made the New Gods), but I don't think everyone would have this luck.

But basically, the website mods don't see their work as the one truth (At least not the ones I interacted with), so any system can be true as long as it's self-consistent.
Click to expand...
I mean I remember when NLF was a thing. Now this isn't as big anymore but in the past it actually existed. Also could you give your view on Looney Tunes characters?
 
EndlessWords said:
Either the bottom layer is totally unreal, or it's real, unless there are "degrees of reality" I don't know about.
I also don't understand why being real means being more powerful, a real being can't face and defeat a being that is totally unreal to him.
Click to expand...
It's more powerful in the sense that in the hierarchy of existence, no amount of what lies below can reach what lies beyond because of its qualitative superiority. If the two layers can interact or not with some kind of trans-metaphysical interaction, the system should be open to that.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
I saw you saying that the unreal affecting the real would be a great anti-deed.

But for example
Looney Tunes? That the drawings come out of their own drawings and affect the "Real World"

It is very explicit how their world is treated by the animators, as there are several episodes that show that they are in something like an animation tool and the animators use various tools in the application.

Would they qualify for 1-A? And would them jumping/jumping into the world of animators be an anti-feat?
Click to expand...
I asked Ultima about that already.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
I saw you saying that the unreal affecting the real would be a great anti-deed.

But for example
Looney Tunes? That the drawings come out of their own drawings and affect the "Real World"

It is very explicit how their world is treated by the animators, as there are several episodes that show that they are in something like an animation tool and the animators use various tools in the application.

Would they qualify for 1-A? And would them jumping/jumping into the world of animators be an anti-feat?
Click to expand...
Based in what I understood, If the real and unreal world are both effective each other, then there is no reason to assume there is any trancendence between them. They act more like two different universes. An animator who can manipulate the unreal world is no different than a reality warper who can create and manipulate a parallel universe.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Based in what I understood, If the real and unreal world are both effective each other, then there is no reason to assume there is any trancendence between them. They act more like two different universes. An animator who can manipulate the unreal world is no different than a reality warper who can create and manipulate a parallel universe.
Click to expand...
But isn't there a problem when only one character can affect that reality warper. Generally the mcs of cartoons can do that. In some we even see them drawing the cartoon and the characters and the characters tearing the pages which is no mere reality warping.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
I mean I remember when NLF was a thing. Now this isn't as big anymore but in the past it actually existed.
Click to expand...
That has all to do with the approach. And many times, it was used as a way to say that "X transcendent stuff isn't transcendent because Y could happen". But if you read those books with hundreds and thousands of pages I mentioned, it's something that all to do with the approach and what any given people will accept as valid or not.

You'll have authors that agreed upon the notion that God should be temporarily transcendental and so the angels, but since angels can't have the same transcendence as God, they should be transcendent upon the physical existence but have some kind of non-physical measurement that is time-like for their temporal timelessness. And yet you also had authors who thought this was non-sense and you are either temporal or atemporal and no in-between, so there should be no level between physical temporality and God's timelessness, and so many of the bizarre "They transcend time, yet they showcase something that is time-like" would just be "they don't transcend time, they are temporal just like us".

The stuff we do here on the wiki really is just a repeat of what great philosophers did trying to understand the nature of the divine and how it relates to us... It's kind of beautiful when you think about it.
 
Executor_N0 said:
That has all to do with the approach. And many times, it was used as a way to say that "X transcendent stuff isn't transcendent because Y could happen". But if you read those books with hundreds and thousands of pages I mentioned, it's something that all to do with the approach and what any given people will accept as valid or not.

You'll have authors that agreed upon the notion that God should be temporarily transcendental and so the angels, but since angels can't have the same transcendence as God, they should be transcendent upon the physical existence but have some kind of non-physical measurement that is time-like for their temporal timelessness. And yet you also had authors who thought this was non-sense and you are either temporal or atemporal and no in-between, so there should be no level between physical temporality and God's timelessness, and so many of the bizarre "They transcend time, yet they showcase something that is time-like" would just be "they don't transcend time, they are temporal just like us".

The stuff we do here on the wiki really is just a repeat of what great philosophers did trying to understand the nature of the divine and how it relates to us... It's kind of beautiful when you think about it.
Click to expand...
But also kind of idiotic that we use it for Superman vs Kratos. They would be banging their heads on walls. Also basically the highest echelon of fiction is basically a philosophical contest?
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Based in what I understood, If the real and unreal world are both effective each other, then there is no reason to assume there is any trancendence between them. They act more like two different universes. An animator who can manipulate the unreal world is no different than a reality warper who can create and manipulate a parallel universe.
Click to expand...
But what if there is R > f but it is also type.

The LT universe is literally in an animation tool/drawing in an animation tool.

Which in this case would be an infinite 4D (infinite time by default) being reduced to something like a drawing inside a technological object.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Which in this case would be an infinite 4D (infinite time by default) being reduced to something like a drawing inside a technological object.
Click to expand...
Ultima’s post has specified that dimensionality and quality of reality cannot be compared.

The higher layer could be a 2D drawing that sees an infinite dimensional space as a lower reality, and therefore as nothing.

Ironically, it is the toon force characters that will be affected the most because they have a lot of inconsistencies.
 
Executor_N0 said:
The stuff we do here on the wiki really is just a repeat of what great philosophers did trying to understand the nature of the divine and how it relates to us... It's kind of beautiful when you think about it.
Click to expand...
Let’s make a tier system based on the teachings Emmanuel Kant!
 
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