The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Of course I wake up to people managing to turn this thread into "SCP bad ".

And of course people use the same nonsensical argument of "It's become ridden with powerscaling!!" (ignoring how the vast majority of authors, including the ones responsible for some of the modern tiers, either don't care about Vs Debating or actively despise it).

It's almost like both off-site SCP "supporters" and SCP haters alike don't actually read anything on the site and just say stuff based on gut feeling or vague impressions they get from our profiles.

 

[Da3ggman]

Of course I wake up to people managing to turn this thread into "SCP bad ".

And of course people use the same nonsensical argument of "It's become ridden with powerscaling!!" (ignoring how the vast majority of authors, including the ones responsible for some of the modern tiers, either don't care about Vs Debating or actively despise it).

It's almost like both off-site SCP "supporters" and SCP haters alike don't actually read anything on the site and just say stuff based on gut feeling or vague impressions they get from our profiles.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

So if Ultimas thread passes. Who would be the strongest 1-A's, H1-A's and 0's?

For High 1-A, WoD and (probably) SCP, as always.

And WoD would have a Tier 0 too.

 

[Iiliminal]

Goku victims

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Goku victims

Anos irrelevant layers into high boundless for his very existence >>>>>>

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I just realized. With this, the arguments of, "3D hax won't work on a 5D being" go out of the window since qualitive superiority isn't equalized with quantitative superiority.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I just realized. With this, the arguments of, "3D hax won't work on a 5D being" go out of the window since qualitive superiority isn't equalized with quantitative superiority.

So smurf hax is an obsolete concept top now?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So smurf hax is an obsolete concept top now?

Yep.

Maybe there could be smurfs with 1-A hax, but that would violate Ultima's proposal in my opinion.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I just realized. With this, the arguments of, "3D hax won't work on a 5D being" go out of the window since qualitive superiority isn't equalized with quantitative superiority.

Wouldn't range be required instead

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Yep.

Maybe there could be smurfs with 1-A hax, but that would violate Ultima's proposal in my opinion.

How so?

Really haven't been keeping up with all the changes lol

 

[Lynieryz]

Dimensionality will continue to exist in the same way as it is now the only difference is how far it goes in the tier and R>F will be higher than infinite dimensions so just think that it is the same as now only with R>F being above infinite dimensions.

 

[Maizesoup]

How so?

Really haven't been keeping up with all the changes lol

1-A smurf fear hax is possible given that fiction can scare real people

Based on the spirit of Ultima's proposed tiering system, my guess is that characters lower than 1-A wouldn't be able to affect 1-A characters for the same reason why fictional characters can't affect real people, so smurfs with 1-A hax would be an anti feat for the 1-A character(s) they are affecting.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

1-A smurf fear hax is possible given that fiction can scare real people

Based on the spirit of Ultima's proposed tiering system, my guess is that characters lower than 1-A wouldn't be able to affect 1-A characters for the same reason why fictional characters can't affect real people, so smurfs with 1-A hax would be an anti feat for the 1-A character(s) they are affecting.

That makes sense. I eas talking about let's say

3D law hax vs 5D being with no resistance to it

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Wouldn't range be required instead

Nope. Theoretically, a higher D being may be able to hide in higher space, but they would have to show they can do that in the first place. It wouldn't be assumed.

How so?

Really haven't been keeping up with all the changes lol

Lower reality is supposed equivalent to an empty set, if a character has 1A hax, that means a character with the value of nothing can affect the higher level which is kind of an oxymoron.

 

[Lynieryz]

1-A smurf fear hax is possible given that fiction can scare real people

Based on the spirit of Ultima's proposed tiering system, my guess is that characters lower than 1-A wouldn't be able to affect 1-A characters for the same reason why fictional characters can't affect real people, so smurfs with 1-A hax would be an anti feat for the 1-A character(s) they are affecting.

In terms of hax it will literally be the same as 4D vs 5D, so it won't be anti-feat it will depend on context like everything on the Wiki.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Nope. Theoretically, a higher D being may be able to hide in higher space, but they would have to show they can do that in the first place. It wouldn't be assumed.



Lower reality is supposed equivalent to an empty set, if a character has 1A hax, that means a character with the value of nothing can affect the higher level which is kind of an oxymoron.

I don't think it's an oxymoron. If you have a 10-B character with 1-A hax, clearly it's not the 10-B stats overpowering the 1-A stuff in order to attack. It's just a 10-B character that just so happens to have powers capable of interacting with 1-A things. Or sometimes it can just be a 1-A character that has a 10-B avatar or something. It's not more contradictory than our current smurf stuff in that regard.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I don't think it's an oxymoron. If you have a 10-B character with 1-A hax, clearly it's not the 10-B stats overpowering the 1-A stuff in order to attack. It's just a 10-B character that just so happens to have powers capable of interacting with 1-A things. Or sometimes it can just be a 1-A character that has a 10-B avatar or something. It's not more contradictory than our current smurf stuff in that regard.

We will have to see how the standards are specifically written out and how cases are handled. It could be very well that an avatar of a 1-A may not be given 1-A rating in the lower levels.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean yeah obviously this avatar wouldn't be 1-A physically but if they can draw upon some powers from their true selves in order to do stuff it would, in fact, be smurfy hax. And that isn't contradictory to their 1-Aness.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Sigh
@Sir_Ovens @Saikou_The_Lewd_King Could you help me here? I'm tired.

You'd think this would solve the faults.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Of course I wake up to people managing to turn this thread into "SCP bad ".

And of course people use the same nonsensical argument of "It's become ridden with powerscaling!!" (ignoring how the vast majority of authors, including the ones responsible for some of the modern tiers, either don't care about Vs Debating or actively despise it).

It's almost like both off-site SCP "supporters" and SCP haters alike don't actually read anything on the site and just say stuff based on gut feeling or vague impressions they get from our profiles.

No, Saikou. More or so- "why is Monty python and the holy grail suddenly canon here?" Or "why tf do we have characters that are an exact copy from another verse but in 2D" type thing. It's starting to take on the copycat vibe ya'know?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No, Saikou. More or so- "why is Monty python and the holy grail suddenly canon here?" Or "why tf do we have characters that are an exact copy from another verse but in 2D" type thing. It's starting to take on the copycat vibe ya'know?

Yeah it's almost like a setting based on our own world (like most fictional settings in existence) would also have the fiction from our world exist in it. It just so happens that the common theme of pataphysical stuff means interactions with said fiction is occasionally a little more in-depth. It's no less of a "copycat" verse than any other verse that happens to reference other fictional settings it doesn't have the copyright to but is otherwise wholly original (Ungalo springs to mind as an example, as it does explicitly reference things by name that it doesn't have the rights to).

It's not comparable to verses whose entire identity is using the copyright of other verses.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Yeah it's almost like a setting based on our own world (like most fictional settings in existence) would also have the fiction from our world exist in it. It just so happens that the common theme of pataphysical stuff means interactions with said fiction is occasionally a little more in-depth. It's no less of a "copycat" verse than any other verse that happens to reference other fictional settings it doesn't have the copyright to but is otherwise wholly original (Ungalo springs to mind as an example, as it does explicitly reference things by name that it doesn't have the rights to).

It's not comparable to verses whose entire identity is using the copyright of other verses.

Here's the thing, they are not canon in the form of references, They are canon in the form of being a copy of the original, stated to have the capacity to kill this character from another verse or simply something that inserts itself into a medium (that got AVA banned) that is from another verse; SCP-3166, SCP-3167, SCP-4335, SCP-3450 and etc.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

Here's the thing, they are not canon in the form of references, They are canon in the form of being a copy of the original, stated to have the capacity to kill this character from another verse or simply something that inserts itself into a medium (that got AVA banned) that is from another verse; SCP-3166, SCP-3167, SCP-4335, SCP-3450 and etc.

AVA got banned because Animation vs Minecraft was half of the verses content.

 

[Greatsage13th]

AVA got banned because Animation vs Minecraft was half of the verses content.

Not because it vs Minecraft. It was because it commonly uses Minecraft stuff as a medium for practically almost every single thing from building to items and npcs.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Here's the thing, they are not canon in the form of references, They are canon in the form of being a copy of the original, stated to have the capacity to kill this character from another verse or simply something that inserts itself into a medium (that got AVA banned) that is from another verse; SCP-3166, SCP-3167, SCP-4335, SCP-3450 and etc.

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Saying "probably" is underselling it by a lot

It's practically irrefutable at this point. The Journey Through the Afterlife story literally goes out of its way to say "lol yeah there's this infinitely-layered thing that characters scale to, with the bottom layer being conveniently exactly like Plato's Theory of Forms, and each layer transcends the world below it to the same extent that the World of Forms transcends the particulars." It also goes out of its way to name-drop a bunch of other philosophical/religious concepts (and even linking them) and then saying "Oh yeah all those things exist inside here too". It's honestly kind of cringe.

Edit: Here's my favorite passage from the post, and what makes it painfully obvious that it's meant to be powerscale hypebeasting:

“You see, Plato created an idea that there exists a world of forms. An idealistic, abstract realm where things called “platonic concepts” existed. These platonic concepts were described by him as “perfect”, transcending your physical universe, governing over even the archetypal concepts of space and time. Their forms are always constant, forever unchanging. Now these concepts cast shadows into the physical universe below, creating flawed versions of themselves.” Enoch explained. “You see, such a realm does exist below us. However, while Plato was correct about his theory, his perspective of “perfection” was flawed. Bound and tainted by his human mind, he could not comprehend what True Perfection looked like. Where we stand here. The first level of the afterlife is the beginning of “True Perfection”. The world of forms to your world of forms.”

They don't even call them platonic forms here, they call them platonic concepts lol

 

[Metalballrun]

I just realized. With this, the arguments of, "3D hax won't work on a 5D being" go out of the window since qualitive superiority isn't equalized with quantitative superiority.

I mean, that's how it is supposed to work unless a story uses dimensions differently, AFAIK.
A 5D extradimensional being may and can still be existing in 3D space.
Just that lots of extradimensional entities are portrayed to be transcendent and imperceptible and so on, really contextual for these cases.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Here's the thing, they are not canon in the form of references, They are canon in the form of being a copy of the original, stated to have the capacity to kill this character from another verse or simply something that inserts itself into a medium (that got AVA banned) that is from another verse; SCP-3166, SCP-3167, SCP-4335, SCP-3450 and etc.

They're 11-A beings capable of entering fictional mediums and beating up 11-A versions of the characters. None of that actually apply to any real stats or any actual form of scaling and we don't in fact use this for scaling (at least to my knowledge, I don't know if a bad CRT happened behind my back). The characters do not physically exist in the verse and are either actually, genuinely fiction or other anomalies that were made in the shape of fictional characters. I don't think we'd be deleting a verse if characters were throwing hands with someone in a Mickey costume or anything. And, again, Ungalo is quite literally the same thing except probably worse, given how they're actually brought to life physically with their same abilities.

I don't know much about AvA, but to my knowledge, it seems to be entire seasons worth of crossovers with Minecraft. That's a rather large chunk of the series dedicated to having the characters interact with Minecraft content. Once again, quite different than a very small portion of the verse dealing with this kind of content in a way that doesn't apply to actual stats to any degree.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

They're 11-A beings capable of entering fictional mediums and beating up 11-A versions of the characters. None of that actually apply to any real stats or any actual form of scaling and we don't in fact use this for scaling (at least to my knowledge, I don't know if a bad CRT happened behind my back). The characters do not physically exist in the verse and are either actually, genuinely fiction or other anomalies that were made in the shape of fictional characters. I don't think we'd be deleting a verse if characters were throwing hands with someone in a Mickey costume or anything. And, again, Ungalo is quite literally the same thing except probably worse, given how they're actually brought to life physically with their same abilities.

I don't know much about AvA, but to my knowledge, it seems to be entire seasons worth of crossovers with Minecraft. That's a rather large chunk of the series dedicated to having the characters interact with Minecraft content. Once again, quite different than a very small portion of the verse dealing with this kind of content in a way that doesn't apply to actual stats to any degree.

What you say makes sense, albeit I have no idea what or who Ungalo is.

 

[LimonataFresca]

Though, personally, I think SCP should be removed as well. Whether you want to admit it or not, I think the verse's extended canon and material has become littered with powerscaling. I mean, even those QnAs you provide seem very focused on it, which makes me believe it's a huge part of the community even more.

Finally someone with common sense lol

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Finally someone with common sense lol

STOP IT.

 

[Greatsage13th]

They're 11-A beings capable of entering fictional mediums and beating up 11-A versions of the characters. None of that actually apply to any real stats or any actual form of scaling and we don't in fact use this for scaling (at least to my knowledge, I don't know if a bad CRT happened behind my back). The characters do not physically exist in the verse and are either actually, genuinely fiction or other anomalies that were made in the shape of fictional characters. I don't think we'd be deleting a verse if characters were throwing hands with someone in a Mickey costume or anything. And, again, Ungalo is quite literally the same thing except probably worse, given how they're actually brought to life physically with their same abilities.

The points you gave are only related to 3167. What about the others? Also, the profiles of shelock homes and gandalf are linked from its profile in the manifestation key in the attack potency section.

 

[Maizesoup]

They're 11-A beings capable of entering fictional mediums and beating up 11-A versions of the characters. None of that actually apply to any real stats or any actual form of scaling and we don't in fact use this for scaling (at least to my knowledge, I don't know if a bad CRT happened behind my back). The characters do not physically exist in the verse and are either actually, genuinely fiction or other anomalies that were made in the shape of fictional characters. I don't think we'd be deleting a verse if characters were throwing hands with someone in a Mickey costume or anything. And, again, Ungalo is quite literally the same thing except probably worse, given how they're actually brought to life physically with their same abilities.

SCP-3922 is above tier 11 for harming characters from other works. Though I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that, yes, there was in fact a bad CRT that happened behind your back. (or you were just unaware of the profile)

 

[Blunt_Claw]

What you say makes sense, albeit I have no idea what or who Ungalo is.

This guy who can bring fiction to life,many copyrighted characters like Astro Boy,Kenshiro,Spider-man and Mickey Mouse get mentioned or shown during his story arc but no one would try to get JoJo's off the wiki because of this since he makes up a very small portion of the overall verse,just like SCP.

 

[Greatsage13th]

This guy who can bring fiction to life,many copyrighted characters like Astro Boy,Kenshiro,Spider-man and Mickey Mouse get mentioned or shown during his story arc but no one would try to get JoJo's off the wiki because of this since he makes up a very small portion of the overall verse,just like SCP.

The difference is, only the names are used but their physical appearance and their origin story are ABSOLUTELY different! You telling me a chocolate guy from the store kissed snow white!? Also, that falls under references (names) and not just inserting the original inside his own story otherwise he gets sued by Disney.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

The difference is, only the names are used but their physical appearance and their origin story are ABSOLUTELY different! You telling me a chocolate guy from the store kissed snow white!? Also, that falls under references (names) and not just inserting the original inside his own story otherwise he gets sued by Disney.

Have you read Ungalo's story arc?

Choclate guy from the store kisses Snow White because he gets turned into the prince from that story. Astro Boy is physically shown with no design alterations. Pinocchio is said to be every version of Pinocchio and killing him erases every picture of Pinocchio. The stories playing out the same way is explicitly stated with Kenshiro's fight being said to be destroying Tokyo in the same way as it did in canon and Anasui's life being in danger is because he gets turned into a character that dies in the story.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Have you read Ungalo's story arc?

Choclate guy from the store kisses Snow White because he gets turned into the prince from that story. Astro Boy is physically shown with no design alterations. Pinocchio is said to be every version of Pinocchio and killing him erases every picture of Pinocchio. The stories playing out the same way is explicitly stated with Kenshiro's fight being said to be destroying Tokyo in the same way as it did in canon and Anasui's life being in danger is because he gets turned into a character that dies in the story.

...just post the scans here so I can take a closer look.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

...just post the scans here so I can take a closer look.

Aight gathering screenshots,will be back in 10 or 30 minutes

 

[Greatsage13th]

Aight gathering screenshos,will be back in 10 or 30 minutes

Take as much time as you need.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

Take as much time as you need.

Thanks.