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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Universe Prime hasn't appeared in any official SCP writings yet, with its existence only hinted at in an interview and a , but I'd say it being Tier 0 isn't doubtful based on the evidence
I just noticed that one of the leading SCP authors made an FAQ directed at us because they were tired of being bombarded with questions from vs debaters. In response, I'll say this: quoting Stan Lee's "the author decides who wins" is good if you're trying to get us to examine scaling more closely to see if something's an outlier or not, but it's not going to make us abandon trying to powerscale entirely because that's silly. Authors take into consideration narrative weight, but versus debaters don't because we're here to have fun by being clinical, not to write a story. Given how much the SCP site values clinical tone, you should respect, not mock, us for this.

Remember that time when Goku defeated Vegeta? Yeah, that fight that left Goku crushed and broken on the ground but ultimately resulted in a net victory for the Earth, because Yajirobe, Gohan, and Krillin were able to finish what Goku started and pull off a climactic victory against the insurmountable Saiyan titan?

We would say that Saiyan arc Goku, in a fight against Saiyan arc Vegeta, flat-out loses.

This is not an accurate depiction of the fight that happened onscreen because the fight that happened onscreen was the product of a writer creating tension, building drama, and bringing his characters towards a predetermined conclusion in as dramatically intense fashion as possible. Which is not what versus discussions are about.

In writing, the winner of a fight is the person that the writer wants to win the fight. The goal of the story is to make that predetermined outcome believable.

In versus debating, the winner of a fight is the person whose pre-established stats and abilities most warrant winning the fight. There are no underdog triumphs, no one-in-a-million longshots, no eleventh-hour miracle turnarounds. It's just a straight stat-for-stat comparison.

Fights in storytelling are wrestling. They're pre-scripted endeavors with a pre-determined victor, where the ultimate decider for who wins the fight is whatever suits the narrative that the writers have in mind.

Fights in versus debating are arm-wrestling. Here is my arm, you give me your arm, and then we see whose muscles are bigger. With the caveat that "muscles" here refers to AP, hax, etc.
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Based on the FAQ, Universe Prime is simply the peak of the narrative hierarchy representing the real world.

Doesn't seem to qualify.
 
Given the amount of R>F stuff it has, I doubt it's going to go to baseline 1-A unless we equate those R>F layers to simply dimensions
 
I once heard from a very wise man that SCP would cap at high 1-B+ because it's all run by computers which debunks any sort of qualitative superiority since computers are all numbers and computing.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
I once heard from a very wise man that SCP would cap at high 1-B+ because it's all run by computers which debunks any sort of qualitative superiority since computers are all numbers and computing.
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This reasoning is completely invalid when you consider additional context. The part of the cosmology you seem to be referring to is how the Infosphere, the structure containing the SCP multiverse, is run by the Proxyverse, a giant computer meant to represent the website and profiles of the SCP authors that exists as an intermediate layer between the SCP universe and the true authors. However, when you look at how the layers in the SCP cosmology are legitimately portrayed, all of it indicates metafiction, and precisely none indicates computing, so trying to debunk the SCP cosmology based on a lazy interpretation of how one layer was vaguely described as a "computer" is utterly meaningless. Also, even if this reasoning was valid, it wouldn't even change the cosmology all that much because only that one layer was ever described as a computer, and removing one layer from infinite doesn't change infinity.
 
I think the problems posed about the tiering system and the need and will to change it for the better is good, but whether or not the proposed methods of fixing it will ultimately be a step forward to absolute progress remains to be seen, although I agree with some parts of it.

I'll leave the complaining in the future if the changes proposed do happen and it causes changes that I don't like.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
I once heard from a very wise man that SCP would cap at high 1-B+ because it's all run by computers which debunks any sort of qualitative superiority since computers are all numbers and computing.
Click to expand...
Probably a joke about Halting problem.

The halting problem closes all of the possible loopholes in practice.

So technically the halting problem is the hole in mathematics, but incompleteness theorem came first and revealed a big chunk of the hole.

Even after the incompleteness theorem, it was still "possible" that some other foundation not based on first order logic could be complete and sound. But that was ruled out when the halting problem was shown undecidable: if a foundation was computable (which is a requirement for humans to actually use it), it can't solve the halting problem, which is a mathematical problem.

Which would result the Universe Prime being peak at High 1-B+ in new system (which is probably a joke lol don't take it literally)
 
Hjxdvd said:
Probably a joke about Halting problem.

The halting problem closes all of the possible loopholes in practice.

So technically the halting problem is the hole in mathematics, but incompleteness theorem came first and revealed a big chunk of the hole.

Even after the incompleteness theorem, it was still "possible" that some other foundation not based on first order logic could be complete and sound. But that was ruled out when the halting problem was shown undecidable: if a foundation was computable (which is a requirement for humans to actually use it), it can't solve the halting problem, which is a mathematical problem.

Which would result the Universe Prime being peak at High 1-B+ in new system (which is probably a joke lol don't take it literally)
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I have no idea what you're talking about or how the halting problem is remotely relevant here.
 
SCP will probably reach a few layers of Meta-Qualitative superiority.

Going through this...

  • From bottom to top, a single universe in the infinite SCP multiverse consists of four layers: physical reality, the Noosphere, the Semiosphere, and the Patasphere, with each layer entirely transcending the frameworks of everything before it. Physical reality varies between universes, but the other three layers are identical for every universe.
  • At least one of these universes already contains an infinite amount of R>f layers, with the author in charge of that one explicitly saying (Here, in Addendum 3812.6) that metafictional dimensions are inherently superior to spatiotemporal ones. This means that a single universe's physical component would vary up to 1-A+ under Ultima's new system while all of a universe taken together is two layers above baseline High 1-A.

So one universe would be 1-A+

All of the universes taken together, I'm unsure about that being High 1-A. Being layers above 1-A+ would just be 1-A+ I think.

  • The entire multiverse is encased in a structure called the Infosphere that entirely transcends it, meaning the multiverse as a whole is three layers above baseline High 1-A.
I believe this Infosphere gets you to baseline High 1-A.
  • There is another stack of meta-R>f layers above the multiverse, which is infinite layers into High 1-A. A nebulous, entirely ineffable Tier 0 structure called Universe Prime subsumes this stack entirely.
Meta R>F stack would get you infinite layers into the High 1-A, but still within "Meta-Qualitative" superiority.

Keep in mind, though, that "infinite layers into High 1-A" is actually a bit vague.

Because High 1-A actually contains an endless recursion of higher meta-qualities. So, you could be infinite layers into the first meta-quality, but still completely irrelevant to something of "meta-meta-quality" or "meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-quality" and etc.

If I had to equivalate it to something, it would be like the gap between 1-A and High 1-A in the current tiering system repeated infinitely.


Based on what I have seen of the "Universe Prime" it is not Tier 0 in the slightest. It's simply the highest possible layer in the meta-fictional narrative hierarchy representing the real world.
 
It doesn't seem like SCP will have a 0 character, given their highest tier characters are us, and we are much so not true transdual entities with oneness with the verse with no true features.
 
Hjxdvd said:
If the Universe Prime is this computer then that means the Universe Prime is itself limited by things like the Halting problem

It is not that hard to understand, kek.
Click to expand...
The Universe Prime isn't this computer.
Phoenks said:
SCP will probably reach a few layers of Meta-Qualitative superiority.

Going through this...

  • From bottom to top, a single universe in the infinite SCP multiverse consists of four layers: physical reality, the Noosphere, the Semiosphere, and the Patasphere, with each layer entirely transcending the frameworks of everything before it. Physical reality varies between universes, but the other three layers are identical for every universe.
  • At least one of these universes already contains an infinite amount of R>f layers, with the author in charge of that one explicitly saying (Here, in Addendum 3812.6) that metafictional dimensions are inherently superior to spatiotemporal ones. This means that a single universe's physical component would vary up to 1-A+ under Ultima's new system while all of a universe taken together is two layers above baseline High 1-A.

So one universe would be 1-A+

All of the universes taken together, I'm unsure about that being High 1-A. Being layers above 1-A+ would just be 1-A+ I think.

  • The entire multiverse is encased in a structure called the Infosphere that entirely transcends it, meaning the multiverse as a whole is three layers above baseline High 1-A.
I believe this Infosphere gets you to baseline High 1-A.
Click to expand...
No, I meant the physical component of a universe is 1-A+ while the full extent of one universe is two layers into High 1-A. In layman's terms, individual universes in SCP are divided into four layers:
  1. Physical reality - 1-A+
  2. Noosphere - Baseline High 1-A
  3. Semiosphere - 1 layer above baseline High 1-A
  4. Patasphere - 2 layers above baseline High 1-A
With that in mind, the Infosphere is 3 layers above baseline High 1-A.
Phoenks said:
  • There is another stack of meta-R>f layers above the multiverse, which is infinite layers into High 1-A. A nebulous, entirely ineffable Tier 0 structure called Universe Prime subsumes this stack entirely.
Meta R>F stack would get you infinite layers into the High 1-A, but still within "Meta-Qualitative" superiority.

Keep in mind, though, that "infinite layers into High 1-A" is actually a bit vague.

Because High 1-A actually contains an endless recursion of higher meta-qualities. So, you could be infinite layers into the first meta-quality, but still completely irrelevant into something of "meta-meta-quality" or "meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-quality" and etc.

If I had to equivalate it to something, it would be like the gap between 1-A and High 1-A in the current tiering system repeated infinitely.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if the meta R>f stack is the former or the latter; I'd have to reread to find out.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
The universes in SCP aren't baseline at all, if by "baseline" you mean what a universe is assumed to be (A Low 2-C structure) without further context.
Click to expand...
baseline doesn’t mean low 2-C. Under the new system a baseline can be anywhere up High 1B+.

In order to gain qualitative superiority for 1-A, you need to show that the layer is superior to the baseline.

If the physical reality is 1-A, what is superior to?
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
baseline doesn’t mean low 2-C. Under the new system a baseline can be anywhere up High 1B+.

In order to gain qualitative superiority for 1-A, you need to show that the layer is superior to the baseline.

If the physical reality is 1-A, what is superior to?
Click to expand...
I don't understand.
 
If I remember correctly 1-A+ is also because of 3812 who basically ascends to higher planes of reality to infinity and "beyond" :) and yet never reaches to or above the noosphere.
 
I'm so glad WoD doesn't require a flow chart to explain its cosmology because it's written to at least have a semblance of cohesion rather than mashing all the deranged rambling of 15 year olds on a Creepypasta website all together like High School toilet paper about to be thrown at a wall and or mirror.
 
Udlmaster said:
I'm so glad WoD doesn't require a flow chart to explain its cosmology because it's written to at least have a semblance of cohesion rather than mashing all the deranged rambling of 15 year olds on a Creepypasta website all together like High School toilet paper about to be thrown at a wall and or mirror.
Click to expand...
It still needs a lengthy and verbose blog so mid verse. All mid verses.
 
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