-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
The Big Bleach Speed CRT
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
- Status
- 19,198
- 28,259
The durability/toughness of Senbonzakura didn't change between the two scenes.
- 16,168
- 11,534
Prove to me that massively increasing your speed to improve the KE and AP is much weaker than swinging with two hands.
- 19,198
- 28,259
Woah there, prove that it was a "massive speed amp" first. Byakuya doubles his speed and Ichigo matches it, the most you can give Ichigo is that he increased his speed at least 2 times. Doesn't sound like a massive speed amp to me.
- 8,170
- 2,204
This is stupid lol.
Kendo is how you increase the power of your swings or adding more reiatsu into your swings.
Kendo is how you increase the power of your swings or adding more reiatsu into your swings.
- 16,168
- 11,534
Byakuya had to amp his speed by three times to match Ichigo.
- 19,198
- 28,259
Two times* you're using a faulty translation. And twice is not massive. That would only increase KE by a factor of 4. Albeit to say Ichigo upped his AP by 4 times as well is incorrect, as there was less mass behind the swing, since he used one arm instead of both.
- 5,227
- 3,366
@Shadowbokunohero
- How much faster Ichigo got exactly is unknown, the most you can say is over 2x given that's how much faster Byakuya got
- Kenpachi doing this with a single swing that didn't even connect with Nnoitra >>>>>>> Some random unknown speed amp to KE.
- 10,541
- 12,352
People, people
Just do an average mid end and GG, since both interpretations appear to be valid.
Just do an average mid end and GG, since both interpretations appear to be valid.
- 19,198
- 28,259
I would honestly be down to average the results from mine and Damage's methods. If that seems like a fair compromise @Damage3245.
- 16,168
- 11,534
@Arc7Kuroi
it's something still quantifiably higher than his regular one-handed swing as opposed to unquantifiable stronger because his using two hands.
it's something still quantifiably higher than his regular one-handed swing as opposed to unquantifiable stronger because his using two hands.
- 10,541
- 12,352
- 31,574
- 28,024
- Thread starter
- #254
The Mid End of the new updated version of the calc you did using cross-sections seems like the best middle ground between our two points.
- 5,227
- 3,366
I've seen a lot of people agree with Damage but I've yet to see somebody actually defend his interpretation, seems like a bunch of yes men to me.
The increase from using two hands on a sword is shown to be far above what 2x speed would amp for Ichigo's AP, this is pretty clearly shown in the manga.
And if we agree that two hands > one hand with a 2x speed amp, then we've already seen Ichigo fail to cut or even move a pillar of petals, meaning the argument that he was swatting away entire pillars is already debunked by that alone.
The increase from using two hands on a sword is shown to be far above what 2x speed would amp for Ichigo's AP, this is pretty clearly shown in the manga.
And if we agree that two hands > one hand with a 2x speed amp, then we've already seen Ichigo fail to cut or even move a pillar of petals, meaning the argument that he was swatting away entire pillars is already debunked by that alone.
- 2,939
- 1,400
This feat here is ridiculous, even if you consider a superhuman speed the result is MHS
- 19,198
- 28,259
If you went to get nitty gritty, Ichigo only used his arm for his faster one-handed strike, while he used his whole body in his two-handed strike. Being that the arm is less than a fourth of your body mass, it would actually make the one-armed strike weaker.
1 Arm is 5.33% body mass so the mass behind Ichigo's strikes decreases by a factor of about ~20 but his speed increases by at least 2, meaning his KE would actually decrease by a factor of ~1/5 when he swatted away all the petals if we want to keep pushing this argument.
- 16,168
- 11,534
This is an Association Fallacy, Kenpachis is literally the only character in the series to go from struggling to doing massive damage just by using two hands. there are tons of examples of people switching between one hand to two hands and not getting massive jumps in power.
- 19,198
- 28,259
That would be just your point. I believe what the fella was suggesting was taking the average of both methods of calculation.
- 10,541
- 12,352
Correct.
- 31,574
- 28,024
- Thread starter
- #261
No, my point actually goes further than what you've calced in there. Because of deflected petals going back into the cloud and stopping other petals before they even reach Ichigo.
The current version of your calc is more of a midway point between our two interpretations. Where Ichigo still hits every petal, just not one sliver at a time.
- 4,477
- 4,551
I'm sorry, but what do you think I was doing this entire time? I was arguing and defending the points myself and saying exactly why.
- 5,227
- 3,366
@Shadowbokunohero Care to show a few examples?
And I think you're overestimating how much Ichigo moving twice as fast would increase his AP, it's not massive by any means.
And I think you're overestimating how much Ichigo moving twice as fast would increase his AP, it's not massive by any means.
- 19,198
- 28,259
This point was disproved. Because that would mean Ichigo didn't swat all the petals. It would just mean he blocked the whole attack, but Byakuya flat out says every petal was swatted.
- 31,574
- 28,024
- Thread starter
- #265
Disagreeing with it is not a disproval.
Arc7, from your perspective my entire interpretation is disproven so I don't know why you would even settle on a compromise.
I still have four members of staff on my side agreeing that your interpretation is wrong.
- 5,227
- 3,366
@Duedate8898 Sorry, I should have worded it better, I was more so talking about the people who just say they agree with Damage without actually explaining why nor addressing the counter arguments.
- 19,198
- 28,259
I didn't simply disagree, I provided evidence. Something you have done little of. The only people who say "I agree/disagree" without providing any evidence in this argument was Matthew. So you generalizing my debunk of your claim as "disagreeing" really just tells me you're not listening.
Last edited:
- 10,541
- 12,352
Welp, so much for an average. ovo
- 16,168
- 11,534
Except the Ichigo using the Master one hand stroke has better feats than the two-handed one.
Deflecting large quantities of petals that are faster> his earlier dual holding feat
Edit: I'm going to Bed, will check out the thread (or whats left of it) tomorrow.
- 19,198
- 28,259
It's a better speed feat, not a better AP feat.
- 5,227
- 3,366
Only if you assume he's swatting away entire pillars of petals, which again, beyond an assumption that the manga disagrees with, there's no evidence of.
- 19,198
- 28,259
Just wanna say that the panel of the feat agrees that Ichigo shaved thin layers off rather than cleaving through cross-sections. Just putting that out there.
- 2,684
- 317
I actually brought up that Ichigo dodging point blank Senbonzakura. How much MHS would it be?
CloudStrife00T
They/Them- 313
- 66
Are you guys missing somethings ?
Damage is saying that (lets assume that there are 7 walls of senbonsakura) then ichigo swatted the 1st wall and and other 6 were swatted away by the force transferred by the 1st wall. (which is basically presenting his shockwave argument in a different manner)
But Byakuya is applying counterforce at all time. If we assume that byakuya wasn't able to react and apply counterforce then the time used in calc would change from 1 second or 5 second to accepted reaction time of byakuya or captain level characters (which might be 0.000001 not good with the numbers but yeah you get the point)
Senbonsakura are controlled so ichigo swatted the some and even few of them that were not properly swatted away would use that counter force to attack again. So Ichigo would have to swat them again. The only way to beat the counter force is to swat away every petal and from byakuya's statement we know he did.
Other than that why ichigo was not able to break open shield of senbon is because there are 100 million petals in the area of that shield while byakuya attacks ichigo to trap him he divided the petals differently therefore even if ichigo used one handed slash he was able to slash through that thinkness.
Damage is saying that (lets assume that there are 7 walls of senbonsakura) then ichigo swatted the 1st wall and and other 6 were swatted away by the force transferred by the 1st wall. (which is basically presenting his shockwave argument in a different manner)
But Byakuya is applying counterforce at all time. If we assume that byakuya wasn't able to react and apply counterforce then the time used in calc would change from 1 second or 5 second to accepted reaction time of byakuya or captain level characters (which might be 0.000001 not good with the numbers but yeah you get the point)
Senbonsakura are controlled so ichigo swatted the some and even few of them that were not properly swatted away would use that counter force to attack again. So Ichigo would have to swat them again. The only way to beat the counter force is to swat away every petal and from byakuya's statement we know he did.
Other than that why ichigo was not able to break open shield of senbon is because there are 100 million petals in the area of that shield while byakuya attacks ichigo to trap him he divided the petals differently therefore even if ichigo used one handed slash he was able to slash through that thinkness.
- 13,587
- 5,754
I am confused. One armed Ichigo swinging x2 faster is > full body, two armed Ichigo? Even though the KE increase from the speed is x2 while we know that using two hands is over x5 and this doesn’t even take into account the usage of the entire body.
CloudStrife00T
They/Them- 313
- 66
I think the fact that 1 arm ichigo covers a lot more are than 2 arm ichigo is causing the misunderstanding. It's not that he is faster with 1 hand sword but he is covering much bigger area with it. Since fighting with two handed swords would mean area ichigo covers would be much less unless he makes big body movements.
Last edited:
- 31,574
- 28,024
- Thread starter
- #277
@AnonymousBlank; I don't think anybody said that Ichigo was only swinging two times faster.
- 16,168
- 11,534
This comes from my earlier statement about Byakuya having to move twice as fast to keep up with Ichigo before Arckuroi extrapolated the KE from that. the problem here is that Ichigo would still have to have moved faster than Byakuya's X2 speed to blitz those senbon, hence the point of the feat.
- 31,574
- 28,024
- Thread starter
- #280
There's two interpretations of Ichigo's feat of deflecting Byakuya's Senbonzakura. (Clouds of petal-like blades, numbering at 100 million).
Arc7Kuroi is insisting that Ichigo had to hit every single blade physically with his sword whereas Shadow and I have been explaining that that doesn't make a lot of sense since as his blade is passing through the cloud he will be knocking back blades that he isn't even touching directly.
This alters the nature of the calc being used to find his speed.
So far Shadow, Jvando, DDM and Matthew Schroder agree with me, along with a few other users on here. Some other Bleach fans support Arc7's POV.
Last edited:
- Status
