• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

The Big Bleach Speed CRT

Status
Not open for further replies.
Here's a page going over using all as a determiner, like it is in reference to Byakuya's petals within the Bleach manga.

"every one of, the complete number/amount, the whole of"

I don't know how you say Ichigo swatting all the petals means Ichigo swatted some petals and the other petals hit themselves.
 
This is an unsupported claim. We see in the anime as well he swats them all. Byakuya can control every single petal he was in shock Ichigo deflected them all. Not some ridiculous chain reaction.
I'm sorry, but in the anime all we see is ichigo's arm blurring wildly and then the cloud of petals dispersing in a grouped together manner. If he truly deflected every petal individually then they wouldn't have been so closely grouped together before fully dispersing due to just how wild and haphazard his swings were.

Also, my claim is supported simply by using real-world logic. Like, when things are in large packed together groups you don't have to knock them away individually in order to get them to disperse. You knocking away what you can and then what you knocked away knocking other things away is far more plausible and likely than individually knocking away every single one. And Byakuya's is shown controlling his petals in large groups not as individuals doing their own thing, not just that but he was leading them with his hand, which there is no way just through simple hand gestures that he could make each individual petal shoot towards ichigo while ignoring all the others.

Does Byakuya or anything else ever say that the way his shikai and bankai work is by him instructing each individual blade forward or does it just say that he can control all the blades? Because it requires more assumption and guesswork to come to the conclusion that he's doing the former when on screen it looks more like a general condensed thing.
 
I don't know how you say Ichigo swatting all the petals means Ichigo swatted some petals and the other petals hit themselves.
Because the end result of that is that the petals will still all be sent away from Ichigo... Do you not get that part?
 
Because the end result of that is that the petals will still all be sent away from Ichigo... Do you not get that part?
I don't care about the end result.

Byakuya said Ichigo swatted ALL of them away.

He doesn't say "Ichigo blocked my attack completely" he brings specific notice to Ichigo deflecting ALL the petals.

We agree that the end result is Ichigo not being touched by Senbonzakura Kageyoshi.

Byakuya then tells us the exact means of which Ichigo did to block them all. Ichigo swatted ALL of them away. Do you not understand that?

If Byakuya never said how Ichigo got to that end result, then I'd agree with your interpretation, as you'd be right since we wouldn't know how Ichigo did it. But we do know how Ichigo does it, Byakuya tells us.
 
@Arc7Kuroi; swatting all of them away =/= swatting each individual petal away.

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this. Other people at least seem to have grasped the bowling analogy.
 
I don't know how you say Ichigo swatting all the petals means Ichigo swatted some petals and the other petals hit themselves.
because Damage isn't arguing about the resolution of the event but the mechanics in how the action resolves those events.

"he swatted all of the pedals away" is the resolution of the action as in the What.

Damage is arguing the logistics of how we came to that Resolution as in the How
 
@Arc7Kuroi; swatting all of them away =/= swatting each individual petal away.

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this. Other people at least seem to have grasped the bowling analogy.
Ah yes the Staff agree with you but literally everyone else agrees with me.

Swatting all of the petals means all of the petals.
 
because Damage isn't arguing about the resolution of the event but the mechanics in how the action resolves those events.

"he swatted all of the pedals away" is the resolution of the action as in the What.

Damage is arguing the logistics of how we came to that Resolution as in the How
Swatting all the petals away is the how. The what is Ichigo blocking the entire attack.

Let me break the scene down for you:
Byakuya launches an omnidirectional attack at Ichigo ->
Ichigo completely blocks the attack ->
Byakuya comments on how it should have been impossible for Ichigo to block all the petals

The what is Ichigo blocking the attack here, the how is by deflecting all the petals with Zangetsu.
 
You guys keep bringing up these analogies that aren't necessary because Byakuya says "he swatted away all of them"
 
I don't care about the end result.

Byakuya said Ichigo swatted ALL of them away.

He doesn't say "Ichigo blocked my attack completely" he brings specific notice to Ichigo deflecting ALL the petals.

We agree that the end result is Ichigo not being touched by Senbonzakura Kageyoshi.

Byakuya then tells us the exact means of which Ichigo did to block them all. Ichigo swatted ALL of them away. Do you not understand that?

If Byakuya never said how Ichigo got to that end result, then I'd agree with your interpretation, as you'd be right since we wouldn't know how Ichigo did it. But we do know how Ichigo does it, Byakuya tells us.
I don't even disagree with the idea he swatted each individually but honestly, Damage does have a point. You're arguing that because he swatted them all away it MUST be the case that he swatted each petal individually which is just unfounded. The only thing the statement supports is the idea that he swatted them all away which I'm sure everyone agrees with. Nothing that you personally have shown would support him slicing each petal individually.
 
I don't even disagree with the idea he swatted each individually but honestly, Damage does have a point. You're arguing that because he swatted them all away it MUST be the case that he swatted each petal individually which is just unfounded. The only thing the statement supports is the idea that he swatted them all away which I'm sure everyone agrees with. Nothing that you personally have shown would support him slicing each petal individually.
No no no, I am not arguing each slice = 1 petal. I am arguing my original calc is more accurate.
 
If the disconnect here is that people think I'm arguing 1 slice per 1 petal then I apologize because that was not my original premise.

Let me clarify my premise.
 
I guess we should be more clear with each other then that way we can reach a better consensus without choking each other's necks in a fight that could happen
 
Swatting all the petals away is the how. The what is Ichigo blocking the entire attack.
No it isn't because the swatting ALL THE PETALS AWAY part comes from Byakuya's statements which happens after the fact.

If you want to argue Ichigo swatting away every literal petal is the actual ACTION then you neeed to provide evidence of ichigo literally hitting every Individual petal.

Byakuya is describing the resolution of Ichigos actions.
 
My original calc assumes that with each swing of his sword Ichigo hits enough petals equivalent to the length of Tensa Zangetsu if the petals were stacked like paper. (works out to about 1000 petals per swing)

Damage argues that Ichigo could be slicing through a cross-section of petals rather than a sword's length of petals. (works out to about 6000 petals per swing)

My problem with Damage's suggestion is this:
Byakuya states Ichigo swatted every one of the petals.
It is also demonstrated that Tensa Zangetsu cannot actually break an individual petal, as we see Byakuya block Tensa Zangetsu.
So my issue is that according to Damage's suggestion, Ichigo would be splitting petals in two whilst cleaving through a cross-section, but we know that can't be true because Ichigo didn't break any of the individual petals within that fight.
Therefore, for Ichigo to swat all the petals and not break them, my calc would be more accurate.
 
No it isn't because the swatting ALL THE PETALS AWAY part comes from Byakuya's statements which happens after the fact.

If you want to argue Ichigo swatting away every literal petal is the actual ACTION then you neeed to provide evidence of ichigo literally hitting every Individual petal.

Byakuya is describing the resolution of Ichigos actions.
You're confusing Byakuya's statement coming after the action to mean that Byakuya is describing the what.

The proof that Ichigo's blade in some form or another came into contact with all the petals, is Byakuya's statement.
 
I just want to point out that the petals are controlled by Byakuya, so they all aimed at Ichigo with a force, so it is not like hitting some of them would just create chain reactions like real petals flying into the air, as people seems to think, they need to be hit by something really strong to change their motions towards ichigo.

@Shadowbokunohero we never assumed that, we assumed each sword wings hitting more than 1100 of petals, not 1, based on sword size.
 
> So my issue is that according to Damage's suggestion, Ichigo would be splitting petals in two whilst cleaving through a cross-section, but we know that can't be true because Ichigo didn't break any of the individual petals within that fight.

When the hell did I say Ichigo would be splitting the petals in two?
 
That is quite literally the only way for Ichigo to cleave through a cross-section that densely packed and hit all the petals.
 
That is quite literally the only way for Ichigo to cleave through a cross-section that densely packed and hit all the petals.
No... It isn't... Because his sword strike would be pushing the petals back through the dense mass, not cutting them in two. Or, you know, swatting them back through the mass if you want to use that term.

To go back to the bowling analogy, do you think that the bowling ball is destroying each pin that it hits in order to knock over the one behind it?
 
No... It isn't... Because his sword strike would be pushing the petals back through the dense mass, not cutting them in two. Or, you know, swatting them back through the mass if you want to use that term.
That ignores the fact that a wall of petals were previously shown to be able to block Tensa Zangetsu. If that were the case then when Ichigo original slashed at Byakuya his blade would've sunken into the petal pillar and not stop at the surface.

Tensa Zangetsu is shown to be a match for a surface of petals equivalent to the size of Tensa Zangetsu, not a volume of petals occupied by a swing from Tensa Zangetsu. Thus it makes more sense that Ichigo is shaving off the surface rather than cleaving through a cross-section.
 
That ignores the fact that a wall of petals were previously shown to be able to block Tensa Zangetsu. If that were the case then when Ichigo original slashed at Byakuya his blade would've sunken into the petal pillar and not stop at the surface.
You could just say that Ichigo hit harder when he deflect all of Byakuya's Senbonzakura. Especially since it is pretty apparent that his speed increased massively for that feat since Byakuya couldn't believe what he was seeing.
 
You could just say that Ichigo hit harder when he deflect all of Byakuya's Senbonzakura. Especially since it is pretty apparent that his speed increased massively for that feat since Byakuya couldn't believe what he was seeing.
There's no proof Ichigo was striking with a different force in either of the two scenes. In fact when Byakuya blocks the strike, Ichigo is using two hands (and as Kenpachi says "do you know a strike is more powerful when swung with two hands"). In fact the narrative of the fight is that Ichigo is getting slower with time since he isn't used to Bankai. https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0165-015.png
 
Ichigo also says right after Byukaya blocks that very two-handed attack that he can go faster, which I think would also imply he can swing faster and deal more power. He then proceeds to go faster in reaction to Byukaya going faster as well, the very feat in question being a result of that so yes in this instance I would agree that a 1 handed sword swing is stronger than a 2 handed sword swing.
 
You could just say that Ichigo hit harder when he deflect all of Byakuya's Senbonzakura. Especially since it is pretty apparent that his speed increased massively for that feat since Byakuya couldn't believe what he was seeing.
That just proves the petals are strong enough to maintain their own positions, Ichigo needed to slashs all of them, not some chain reactions doing the job. Byakuya can literally control them and those petals condesed are > Ichigo 2 pages before, and were aiming at him.

Also the fact that here Ichigo can't bypass the petals defense and 2 pages after here can, just lowkey proves Ichigo cannot bypass the petal via sheer strenght when the petals are condensed in one point but with sheer speed, hitting them seperatly, does actually work, because is the weakness of the petals themselves.

This is also lowkey the entire point of the feat, but whatever. People really thinking that Ichigo with a swing is gonna cause massive chain reaction when 2 pages before he cannot even bypass the petals.
 
Ichigo also says right after Byukaya blocks that very two-handed attack that he can go faster, which I think would also imply he can swing faster and deal more power. He then proceeds to go faster in reaction to Byukaya going faster as well, the very feat in question being a result of that so yes in this instance I would agree that a 1 handed sword sing is stronger than a 2 handed sword swing.
You're equating speed to AP here. Which while yes, faster can mean stronger, it's not always the case. For example, Balas are weaker than Ceros but 20x faster. So that does not prove that Ichigo's two handed swing was weaker than his one handed swing.

Saying faster = stronger is false equivalence, especially in Bleach. https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0234-018.png
 
You're equating speed to AP here. Which while yes, faster can mean stronger, it's not always the case. For example, Balas are weaker than Ceros but 20x faster. So that does not prove that Ichigo's two handed swing was weaker than his one handed swing.
Balas are specifically noted to work that way due to their composition and are also energy attacks, whereas Ichigo swinging a sword requires the speed in order for the force to exist. Sure, the actual AP he gets out of it definitely isn't going to be what we rate it as, however I think it makes sense to say that his slower swings are defintely weaker than his faster ones since it has never been noted in series that there is any form of trade-off for speeding up or slowing his attacks.
 
Balas are specifically noted to work that way due to their composition and are also energy attacks, whereas Ichigo swinging a sword requires the speed in order for the force to exist. Sure, the actual AP he gets out of it definitely isn't going to be what we rate it as, however I think it makes sense to say that his slower swings are defintely weaker than his faster ones since it has never been noted in series that there is any form of trade-off for speeding up or slowing his attacks.
I'd be inclined to believe you if both were one handed swings, but they are not. There is more mass behind the two handed swing, whilst there is more speed behind the one handed swing.

Regardless you cannot prove one is stronger than the other and to assert so is headcanon.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top