The Big Bleach Speed CRT

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Prove that other petals were knocked away as such, because Byakuya says Ichigo hit all petals, not that Ichigo hit some petals which chain reaction hit more petals.

No offense, but this is sounding like a specific nitpick that you’re asking to be proven when the opposite is your burden of proof and is a bigger assumption to claim.

Just because Byakuya said he hit all the pedal doesn’t mean each individual pedal was sliced.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

2 handed sword strikes are superior to 1 handed strikes. Just look at Kenpachi when he used 2 hands. His attack was vastly superior to a 1 handed strike.

A very basic skill to increase your AP in Bleach.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

No offense, but this is sounding like a specific nitpick that you’re asking to be proven when the opposite is your burden of proof and is a bigger assumption to claim.

Just because Byakuya said he hit all the pedal doesn’t mean each individual pedal was sliced.

Occam's Razor disagrees.

Ichigo moved so fast we as readers can't see each individual slice.

Byakuya says all were hit. Which is all we are given to go off.

Simplest assumption is that all were hit.

 

[Purgy]

We're shown a clear indication how much stronger an attack is when swung with both hands, we're not shown a clear indication how much stronger an attack is when the person doing it moves an indeterminable amount faster, therefore, Ichigo swinging with two arms > Ichigo swinging with one arm.

Regardless, it's basically stated Ichigo was slowing down the more he used Bankai anyway so I don't even agree he was faster when he cut the petals compared to when the petals blocked his swing.

 

[Damage3245]

@Purgy; do you not see how contradictory that is? That Ichigo hitting away all 100 million petals of Senbonzakura in a split-second is slower than than Ichigo who gets blocked by a portion of Senbonzakura?

In order to deflect all of Senbonzakura in a timeframe that tiny, Ichigo has to be moving thousands of times faster than Senbonzakura, going with your interpretation.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Purgy; do you not see how contradictory that is? That Ichigo hitting away all 100 million petals of Senbonzakura in a split-second is slower than than Ichigo who gets blocked by a portion of Senbonzakura?

In order to deflect all of Senbonzakura in a timeframe that tiny, Ichigo has to be moving thousands of times faster than Senbonzakura, going with your interpretation.

It's implied Byakuya was predicting where Ichigo would attack.

This is by no means a valid support for Ichigo cleaving through cross-sections btw.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Occam's Razor disagrees.

You know Occams Razor side’s with what’s Damage is saying right? When even real life logic does as well?

Explain how all of the pedals being hit at once is less simple than each and every pedal being sliced extremely quickly.

 

[Purgy]

Two different scenarios, Byakuya is attacking from afar when Ichigo swats them away and he creates a shield infront of him to block the swing.

However, even if Ichigo was faster when he swatted the petals, you can't say how much stronger that would make his swings, whereas we have a clear indication of how much stronger a swing with two hands is compared to a swing using only one hand.

Therefore, swinging with two arms while being an indeterminable amount slower is still > swinging with one arm while being an indeterminable amount faster.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You know Occams Razor side’s with what’s Damage is saying right? When even real life logic does as well?

Explain how all of the pedals being hit at once is less simple than each and every pedal being sliced extremely quickly.

Ok you weren't here for when I clarified my premise. I am not saying 1 slice per 1 petal. If you go back and read about the second half of page 2 things will become clearer.

To reiterate it's currently ~1000 petals per swing vs ~6000 petals per swing, reread the second page of the thread if you think I'm arguing 1 petal per swing.

 

[Duedate8898]

Regardless, it's basically stated Ichigo was slowing down the more he used Bankai anyway so I don't even agree he was faster when he cut the petals compared to when the petals blocked his swing.

Okay, so that is for sure wrong, because Ichigo himself says that he can go faster right after his attack is blocked by Byakuya and then proceeds to perform the very feat we're discussing. Not only that but Byakuya speeds up his attack in order to catch Ichigo which would then require Ichigo to prove his claim since this is much faster than Byakuya's previous defense and attacks.

@Arc7Kuroi
And what I'm saying is a perfectly valid interpretation of the events that transpired. I could easily call exactly what you're saying as headcanon since all you have to off of is a statement (one in which does not exactly state what you're pushing for) and visuals that do not show what your previous calc relies on. There is no solid support to say that ichigo struck every petal with his blade, only your own interpretation that he did.

 

[Purgy]

@Duedate8898 Ichigo wasn't aware he was slowing down, he thought he was going faster but in actuality, he was actually slowing down tremendously.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Okay, so that is for sure wrong, because Ichigo himself says that he can go faster right after his attack is blocked by Byakuya and then proceeds to perform the very feat we're discussing. Not only that but Byakuya speeds up his attack in order to catch Ichigo which would then require Ichigo to prove his claim since this is much faster than Byakuya's previous defense and attacks.

You/Damage asserted that it meant Ichigo was swinging with more AP. That however is not provably the case.

And what I'm saying is a perfectly valid interpretation of the events that transpired. I could easily call exactly what you're saying as headcanon since all you have to off of is a statement (one in which does not exactly state what you're pushing for) and visuals that do not show what your previous calc relies on. There is no solid support to say that ichigo struck every petal with his blade, only your own interpretation that he did.

Myself going off of the only statement regarding the feat is more evidence than you guys going off nothing. It also does state exactly what I'm pushing for. There is solid support Ichigo struck every petal, Byakuya says so lol. Again lol I'll clarify struck every petal =/= struck every petal individually, it appears some people still think that's what I'm saying.

 

[Duedate8898]

@Duedate8898 Ichigo wasn't aware he was slowing down, he thought he was going faster but in actuality, he was actually slowing down tremendously.

Ichigo also only notes Byakuya getting faster (where his speed actually starts to decline) after Byakuya places his bankai in Senkei, which occurs after the feat in question.

@Arc7Kuroi
And me and damage are going off the same statement but applying a dose of caution since the blades being knocked away in a chain reaction is a much safer estimate then going by what you're saying.

This:
He swatted them all away!
Does not equal this:
His blade struck every single one of my bankai's blades directly and knocked them away.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ichigo also only notes Byakuya getting faster (where his speed actually starts to decline) after Byakuya places his bankai in Senkei, which occurs after the feat in question.

Byakuya literally states he wasn't getting faster.

And me and damage are going off the same statement but applying a dose of caution since the blades being knocked away in a chain reaction is a much safer estimate then going by what you're saying.

This:
He swatted them all away!
Does not equal this:
His blade struck every single one of my bankai's blades directly and knocked them away.

Mmmm that is what all means tho.

If you look at Damage and I's arguments both incorporate striking every single petal, however Damage doesn't consider that his interpretation ignores Byakuya blocking Ichigo's earlier strike.

 

[Purgy]

@Duedate8898 I'm not sure what you mean? Byakuya wasn't getting faster, Ichigo was getting slower, the only time Byakuya got faster was when he started using the palms of his hands but when Ichigo asserts that Byakuya must be getting faster, this is false, it's just that Ichigo himself is getting much slower.

Also, him getting slower wasn't just an instant thing, rather I think it was more like a gradual process the longer he used Bankai, I say this because Zangetsu says Ichigo was being suffocated/crushed by his own Reiatsu which would be happening throughout the fight and not abruptly.

 

[Duedate8898]

What I was trying to say is that Ichigo only starts to getting slower after Byakuya uses Senkei not before. That's when it's made clear for us that Ichigo is actually declining in speed.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

What I was trying to say is that Ichigo only starts to getting slower after Byakuya uses Senkei not before. That's when it's made clear for us that Ichigo is actually declining in speed.

Still doesn't prove Ichigo's strikes deflecting the petals are stronger than the one Byakuya blocked.

 

[Purgy]

@Duedate8898 Oh I see, well as I said though, from what Zangetsu says, it was more like a gradual process to where Ichigo was getting slower as the fight progressed due to his own Reiatsu crushing him, just because Byakuya essentially started blitzing Ichigo at a certain point doesn't mean that's where it began, rather that's just the point where Ichigo's speed went far beneath Byakuya's.

Basically what I'm saying is, Ichigo's Reiatsu wouldn't start crushing him spontaneously, Reiatsu is a constant emission, rather it must have been a thing that started when he went into Bankai and gradually lowered his speed as he was fighting Byakuya.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

You're equating speed to AP here. Which while yes, faster can mean stronger, it's not always the case. For example, Balas are weaker than Ceros but 20x faster. So that does not prove that Ichigo's two handed swing was weaker than his one handed swing.

Saying faster = stronger is false equivalence, especially in Bleach. https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0234-018.png

This... This doesn't debunk Damage's argument. you're providing a specific example that can easily be countered by arguing that the exception proves the rule.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This... This doesn't debunk Damage's argument. you're providing a specific example that can easily be countered by arguing that the exception proves the rule.

Damage is arguing, maybe Ichigo swung with more AP. He made the claim first.

That cannot be definitively proven. As he made the claim, he needs to prove Ichigo swings were stronger in that instance, in which you cannot do.

Because yes faster = more KE (AP), but swinging with two hands also = more AP in Bleach. So both are arbitrarily stronger than a regular one handed swing. Since both are arbitrarily stronger, you cannot assert that one is stronger than the other simple as that.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; that still wouldn't make anything I've said wrong though.

Doesn't the fact that Ichigo can swat back all of Byakuya's Bankai whereas he was blocked by a portion of it before means that he was hitting it harder?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; that still wouldn't make anything I've said wrong though.

Doesn't the fact that Ichigo can swat back all of Byakuya's Bankai whereas he was blocked by a portion of it before means that he was hitting it harder?

It doesn't make what you said right either.

My claims are supported by Byakuya's quote without having to make multiple assumptions with it.

Your claims requires more assumptions interpreting the quote.

Not inherently.

 

[Purgy]

Doesn't the fact that Ichigo can swat back all of Byakuya's Bankai whereas he was blocked by a portion of it before means that he was hitting it harder?

It only makes sense if you can prove Ichigo actually swatted away huge pillars of petals while only using one hand, but the manga disagrees with that assessment given that it explicitly shows Ichigo failing to do just that whilst swinging with two hands.

 

[Damage3245]

It only makes sense if you can prove Ichigo actually swatted away huge pillars of petals while only using one hand, but the manga disagrees with that assessment given that it explicitly shows Ichigo failing to do just that whilst swinging with two hands.

That's only a disagreement if you make the assumption that Ichigo was only using equal force to his earlier swing.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It only makes sense if you can prove Ichigo actually swatted away huge pillars of petals while only using one hand, but the manga disagrees with that assessment given that it explicitly shows Ichigo failing to do just that whilst swinging with two hands.

Supporting this https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0163-014.png
We only see bits and pieces getting swatted away at a time from what we do see from the feat. Not entire cross-sections.
From the little we see, it supports my original calc where Ichigo is not swatting away massive chunks from the attack.

 

[Purgy]

@Damage3245 Again though, we've seen how much a swing using both hands amplifies an attack.

Ichigo failed to do that while swinging with both hands but your argument is that he did it while swinging with one hand?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Since both are arbitrarily stronger, you cannot assert that one is stronger than the other simple as that.

This defeats your own argument because if we can't prove either is stronger then you cant actually use the former feat as a counter-argument to pushing the petals away other than assuming the two handed strike> super fast Strike. which as you said we are unable to do.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This defeats your own argument, because if we can't prove either is stronger then you cant actually use the former feat as a counter argument to pushing the petals away other than assuming the two handed strike> super fast Strike. which as you said we are unable to do that.

Damage used it as an argument, I did not. It was used by Damage to discredit my calc, so yes I did debunk it's validity as a counter.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage used it as an argument, I did not. It was used by Damage to discredit my calc, so yes I did debunk it's validity as a counter.

You're the one who first mentioned it....

I'm fine just to ignore that thing as irrelevant to the calc.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You're the one who first mentioned it....

I'm fine just to ignore that thing as irrelevant to the calc.

No you first said "couldn't he have just swung harder against Byakuya's one attack"

Regardless there is still more evidence supporting my version of the calc.

 

[Damage3245]

No you first said "couldn't he have just swung harder against Byakuya's one attack"

Regardless there is still more evidence supporting my version of the calc.

When Ichigo's sword first hits the "cloud of Senbonzakura" and is covered in petals... do you think that the petals behind those petals just stop existing while Ichigo is completing his sword swing?

 

[Purgy]

@Shadowbokunohero We can actually prove swinging with two hands vastly increases an attacks power more compared to a completely unknown speed increase, Kenpachi went from losing to Nnoitra to almost cutting him in half and severing multiple limbs with the airslash of a single swing.

There hasn't been a single instance that I can recall where somebody moving faster greatly amplified their attack, at least to that degree.

So yeah, the argument that Ichigo was swatting away pillars of petals is all but debunked, I'm not sure what arguments it has left, the manga clearly disagrees with that interpretation.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

This defeats your own argument because if we can't prove either is stronger then you cant actually use the former feat as a counter-argument to pushing the petals away other than assuming the two handed strike> super fast Strike. which as you said we are unable to do.

What? Within the series Kendo factually increases your swinging power. Ichigo even did it against Kenpachi.

As far as I’m aware I doubt you can list an example supporting Damage within the series.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

When Ichigo's sword first hits the "cloud of Senbonzakura" and is covered in petals... do you think that the petals behind those petals just stop existing while Ichigo is completing his sword swing?

Nope, never said that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Damage and DDM.

 

[Damage3245]

Nope, never said that.

Okay... so do you agree that as Ichigo's sword pushes through the cloud (carrying the first layer of petals with it) that it will then in turn strike more petals?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

either way an argument can be made that the One handed blitz strike is superior to the earlier two handed strike.

Byakuya Increases the Speed of his senbonzakura to match Ichigo's which means Ichigo has to deal with far more KE than he had to before.

 

[Purgy]

@Shadowbokunohero Except it can't lol, at all.

The increase Kendo gives to AP is far higher than an unknown speed amp, and we're never even shown Ichigo cutting through pillars of petals, that was just another assumption Damage made that the manga clearly proves wrong.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Okay... so do you agree that as Ichigo's sword pushes through the cloud (carrying the first layer of petals with it) that it will then in turn strike more petals?

No, why does it have to push through the cloud like that? We are never shown that.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

either way, an argument can be made that the One-handed blitz strike is superior to the earlier two-handed strike.

Byakuya Increases the Speed of his senbonzakura to match Ichigo's which means Ichigo has to deal with far more KE than he had to before.