The Big Bleach Speed CRT

[AppleLord]

@Arc7Kuroi; how many requirements does Byakurai fulfill?:

• Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real. Some examples of favourable properties are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis.

Hadō #11. Tsuzuri Raiden is:
1. flowing through conducting materials
2. making muscles of affected beings contract,
3. reishi lightning and kishi lightning come from the same source, the real world in bleach is artificial

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ichigo says "I can't move" after being struck by Byakurai.

So he's hit by a lightning attack and then can't move, checks out to me.

 

[Damage3245]

@AppleLord; the Kido isn't Reishi (Spirit Particles), it's Spiritual Energy.

@Arc7Kuroi; Ichigo not moving doesn't seem to be attributed to the Byukari itself. That could be the result of his injuries he's accumulated up to that point. Also this effect isn't seen on anyone else that's been hit by Byukari as far as I can tell.

 

[AppleLord]

@AppleLord; the Kido isn't Reishi (Spirit Particles), it's Spiritual Energy.

@Arc7Kuroi; Ichigo not moving doesn't seem to be attributed to the Byukari itself. That could be the result of his injuries he's accumulated up to that point. Also this effect isn't seen on anyone else that's been hit by Byukari as far as I can tell.

Reishi makes every particle in the Soul Society. Quincy can absorbed Kido. Jugram says her Kido is made out of reishi. Reiryoku is the energy used to cast Kido.

 

[Zoro21043]

@Arc7Kuroi; Ichigo not moving doesn't seem to be attributed to the Byukari itself. That could be the result of his injuries he's accumulated up to that point.

he later with the same injuries fired a getsuga tensho after getting rid of white
and byakuya put his guard down and started talking after using the kido meaning he expected the effects

 

[Damage3245]

@AppleLord; doesn't that just mean that Nanao's Kido makes a barrier out of Reishi, whereas Byakuya's Kido is a concentrated blast of Reiryoku?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ichigo not moving doesn't seem to be attributed to the Byukari itself. That could be the result of his injuries he's accumulated up to that point. Also this effect isn't seen on anyone else that's been hit by Byukari as far as I can tell.

He's able to dodge Byakuya's sword point blank while injured -> he's hit by Byakurai -> he can't move. I don't see how a shoulder wound would disable movement unless it was lightning based. Ichigo is slowing down sure, but it's not until he's pierced by Byakurai is he not able to move, Byakurai is portrayed as a beam of lightning/electrical in nature and that's supported by it paralyzing Ichigo. As Zoro said, an even more injured Ichigo is able to move later in the fight, post-white intervention, which point to Byakurai having temporarily immobilized Ichigo, through paralysis because it's Pale Lightning.

Edit: It's used in the manga twice: Rukia in chapter 44 and Byakuya in chapter 165. When Rukia uses it she's in that hyper-nerfed gigai state that's been making it so her powers can't return and the hollow blocks it. When Byakuya uses it against Ichigo it pierces his body and leads to Ichigo being immobilized. The other times it's used is in anime-only/mixed filler-canon episodes or by anime-only characters.

Edit2: For all it's worth, the Bleach Fandom Wiki is in agreement that Byakurai is a lightning attack.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean I'm willing to believe Lightning Speed based on the Databook and Byakurai, but does this contradict anything?

 

[AppleLord]

@AppleLord; doesn't that just mean that Nanao's Kido makes a barrier out of Reishi, whereas Byakuya's Kido is a concentrated blast of Reiryoku?

Not at all. Urahara said that kishi (matter) can't enter Soul Society and the only way to do so is to convert kishi into reishi (spiritual matter).

On what do you base an in-verse explanation that another type of matter besides Kishi and Reishi exists?

 

[Damage3245]

Not at all. Urahara said that kishi (matter) can't enter Soul Society and the only way to do so is to convert kishi into reishi (spiritual matter).

On what do you base an in-verse explanation that another type of matter besides Kishi and Reishi exists?

I didn't say another type of matter. I said spiritual energy (or to be more precise, the databook said that).

 

[Damage3245]

I mean I'm willing to believe Lightning Speed based on the Databook and Byakurai, but does this contradict anything?

I provided a quote from the databook that shows Byakurai is just an energy blast. Just because it has a fancy name does not mean we assume lightning speeds for it.

 

[AppleLord]

I didn't say another type of matter. I said spiritual energy (or to be more precise, the databook said that).

Yes, spiritual energy is the energy used in the verse. Fullbringers use the tiny reishi souls inside kishi to charge up their spiritual energy and attack. If spiritual energy wasn't made of reishi it wouldn't exist in the Soul Society according to Urahara.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I mean I'm willing to believe Lightning Speed based on the Databook and Byakurai, but does this contradict anything?

Nothing is contradicted. In fact while this doesn't inherently mean anything, no-named Shinigami who died in the TYBW have unreleased Zanpakuto that have attacks as fast as lightning according to CFYOW II. So even, absolute fodder can reach lightning speeds in some manner.

I provided a quote from the databook that shows Byakurai is just an energy blast. Just because it has a fancy name does not mean we assume lightning speeds for it.

I've provided evidence to show Byakurai has properties of real lightning.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I provided a quote from the databook that shows Byakurai is just an energy blast. Just because it has a fancy name does not mean we assume lightning speeds for it.

That’s fair, also someone can be like lightning without being lightning speed, i mean they could be close, but not fully there

 

[Damage3245]

If you want to continue discussing this more tomorrow @DemonGodMitchAubin, I'll be around then.

 

[Zoro21043]

it looks like lightning too

 

[Warren_Valion]

While "like Lightning" from a databook statement could usually be considered to be hyperbolic or flowery verbiage, using the statement as supporting evidence to Byakuya's belief that Byakurai (A lightning kido attack) wouldn't be fast enough to hit Ichigo if he wasn't pinned down seems fine as a logical basis to scale from.

Especially since it isn't contradicted and every other speed feet I can think off around that time has something to do with Light. Like multiple high ranking members of the Gotei 13 dodging the Negación or Aaroniero doing light, which should be Realtivstic-ish.

Also, IIRC, there is a point in the novels where regular Onmitsukidō members are described as being able to move at lightning speeds. ANd Ichigo and Byakuya should at least be at that level if not significantly faster.


So yeah, this seems fine.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That’s fair, also someone can be like lightning without being lightning speed, i mean they could be close, but not fully there

I mean the databook does directly compare Ichigo's speed and then makes an effort to note that Ichigo is attacking with the "fastest bankai speed"

Byakurai:

• Name: Pale Lightning, Ichibe confirms that in certain cases (specifically cases originating in the Soul Society) names are often literal. In the raws, Ichibe named "all things within Soul Society" which provides further credence to Byakurai being lightning.
• Ichigo is able to move and evade a point blank attack from Byakuya -> Byakuya skewers Ichigo with Byakurai -> Ichigo is paralyzed. Byakurai demonstrates a property of real lightning.

 

[Damage3245]

@Warren_Valion; it's not a lightning Kido attack. It's an energy beam.

And I see you've completely missed all of the discussion we've had on the novel feat.

 

[AppleLord]

it looks like lightning too

Didn't Ichigo got paralyzed afterward? That means it has a similar feat to Hadō #11. Tsuzuri Raiden that made Ayon muscles contract.

 

[Zoro21043]

I provided a quote from the databook that shows Byakurai is just an energy blast.

can you resend it? i cant find it or i missed it

 

[Damage3245]

@AppleLord; nowhere is it said that Ichigo was paralyzed from the Kido. And nobody else hit by that Kido has had the same effects on them, such as Aizen.

@Zoro21043; "Gathers high-density spiritual energy at the fingertip and discharges it all at once."

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

it's not a lightning Kido attack. It's an energy beam.

• Name: Pale Lightning, Ichibe confirms that in certain cases (specifically cases originating in the Soul Society) names are often literal. In the raws, Ichibe named "all things within Soul Society" which provides further credence to Byakurai being lightning.
• Ichigo is able to move and evade a point blank attack from Byakuya -> Byakuya skewers Ichigo with Byakurai -> Ichigo is paralyzed. Byakurai demonstrates a property of real lightning.

Also, I'm not saying Byakuya is summoning natural lightning, just that Byakurai has the properties of lightning.

And I see you've completely missed all of the discussion we've had on the novel feat.

Speaking in totality, the people participating in that discussion were split.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

nowhere is it said that Ichigo was paralyzed from the Kido. And nobody else hit by that Kido has had the same effects on them, such as Aizen.

Literally right after Ichigo is hit with Byakurai he says "I can't move" despite previously being able to dodge point blank strikes from Byakuya and later in the fight after the paralysis wears off Ichigo is able to move again.

Ichigo is only unable to move directly after being hit with Byakurai, before and a while after he is able to move.

 

[AppleLord]

@Warren_Valion; it's not a lightning Kido attack. It's an energy beam.

And I see you've completely missed all of the discussion we've had on the novel feat.

You go to the trouble of making people create arguments. You only reply if you have something that moves things on your favor . Once the argument gets proven false, you procede to say "is not a lightning kido attack. It's an energy beam" which was your first claim in the first place and acts like everything else we have discuss never happened. Smh Can you be less inconsistent. Is not funny.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; even if we accepted that as being a property of the Kido, that's still just one property.

And tomorrow I will break down exactly why this fodder from the novel argument is so ridiculous. I can't believe it has still been brought up at this point in the thread. It was already rejected earlier.

 

[AppleLord]

@AppleLord; nowhere is it said that Ichigo was paralyzed from the Kido. And nobody else hit by that Kido has had the same effects on them, such as Aizen.

@Zoro21043; "Gathers high-density spiritual energy at the fingertip and discharges it all at once."

Ichigo said he couldn't move after the lightning strike. Show me a scan of Aizen been hit by Byakurai.

 

[Damage3245]

Ichigo said he couldn't move after the lightning strike. Show me a scan of Aizen been hit by Byakurai.

Here. Identified in the 3rd databook as Byakurai.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

even if we accepted that as being a property of the Kido, that's still just one property.

You're ignoring my Ichibe argument. It looks like lightning, it shares properties of lightning, everyone here but you is in agreement that it is very likely lightning speed.

And tomorrow I will break down exactly why this fodder from the novel argument is so ridiculous. I can't believe it has still been brought up at this point in the thread. It was already rejected earlier.

Clearly it must be so ridiculous, especially when loads of people seem to think otherwise. Your argument around this revolves around you turning this nobody, a nobody who was off screened during the war by potentially a nobody from the Quincies, who isn't even seated high enough to be recognized, into somebody special, a somebody who surpasses the history of the Captains, those same Captains who are immortalized Soul Reaper history.

Here. Identified in the 3rd databook as Byakurai.

Aizen can neg the effects of attacks with his reiatsu. Plus Kisuke can't even sense the reiatsu of Aizen at this point, once Aizen starts transforming only Ichigo can sense it. This is no anti-feat. Also, that kido fired by Urahara was modified to turn into the seal we see later iirc, who knows what else is changed with it. As Zoro noted, characters of significant power are seemingly unaffected by the paralyzing properties of lightning.

Also, can you link the databook statement.

 

[Zoro21043]

that aizen is comparable to yamamoto someone who tanked chojiros bankai from the sternritter
unless byakurai>>chojiros bankai

 

[AppleLord]

Here. Identified in the 3rd databook as Byakurai.

Is it confirmed to be Byakurai? Aizen is only moving his head in that panel, but I wouldn't be surprise if it didn't affect him since Yamamoto could move after being hit by Chojiro's lightning that is the way to prove character's strength in anime.

P.S. I also forgot to add that spiritual energy is part of the reishi soul body. Yes, I am saying that shinigami can use the outside reishi, not their interior spiritual energy. Fullbring and Quincy are the only two races who can't produce their own and have to use it from their sorrundings.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; I'll respond to the rest tomorrow morning, but that Kido wasn't the Kido Urahara modified into a seal. That was another Kido fired later.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren_Valion; it's not a lightning Kido attack. It's an energy beam.

And I see you've completely missed all of the discussion we've had on the novel feat.

"Gathers high-density spiritual energy at the fingertip and discharges it all at once."

This means literally nothing, All Kido is created through Spiritual Energy, but the Kido spell changes the energy into whatever attack and gains whatever properties apply to the Kido, this includes elemental properties.

Fire Kido burns as Fire does, Wind Kido blows as Wind does, Water Kido makes you wet as Water does - Spiritual Energy by itself doesn't do these things, but through Kido, their energy is transformed into these things and take on these attributes.


If a Lightning Kido looks like Lightning, acts like Lightning, and is literally called lightning. Then it probably is lightning, and thus, is as fast as lightning. Occam's Razor is clear on how to act in these scenarios.


And yes, I missed the discussion, do you see how many pages there are on this stupid thread?

What's the point in wasting my time for an attribute which will just be equalized in every fight anyway when I have actual real-life problems to deal with, especially with how ridiculously pedantic the critique of Bleach speed feats are on this site:

"Oh, the character's face was 0.00005mm off from x position and y altitude or these lines aren't perfectly ruler-straight, so the thirty light-based feats in the series have to all be outliers!".

After like the third Bleach speed thread of this crap, I stopped caring, I just came because someone asked me to.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; I'll respond to the rest tomorrow morning, but that Kido wasn't the Kido Urahara modified into a seal. That was another Kido fired later.

Alrighty, that doesn't address the fact that Aizen can neg attacks with his reiatsu and that Yamamoto (who's comparable to Aizen) tanked a lightning strike from Chojiro without suffering paralysis, indicating that characters of sufficient power aren't necessarily paralyzed by lightning. Hell I don't even think Candice's lightning that surpasses natural lightning ever paralyzed strong characters either.

 

[Damage3245]

@Warren_Valion It sounds like you're having a rough time. You shouldn't force yourself to comment on something you don't care about if you'd rather not be involved.

As for me, I'm not arguing here just to mess with anybody or because I enjoy it. I'm arguing these points because I do believe there are flaws with some of these methods of scaling and that there are more accurate alternatives.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Warren_Valion It sounds like you're having a rough time. You shouldn't force yourself to comment on something you don't care about if you'd rather not be involved.

As for me, I'm not arguing here just to mess with anybody or because I enjoy it. I'm arguing these points because I do believe there are flaws with some of these methods of scaling and that there are more accurate alternatives.

Do you still feel Byakurai is not lightning-based after reading Warren's post?

 

[Zoro21043]

it is ridiculous how people assume light hit aaroniero when the whole point of rukia trapping him was to make sure if light effects him and to prevent him from dodging again and to test her theory out rukia has no way of knowing if light needs to be in contact with aaronierro for long enough to affect him (and that isnt even a fact thats a assumption) meaning she believes he is fast enough to dodge from that distance thus wanting to immobilize him
but it isnt as ridiculous as how the captains in soul society arc are scaled below lightning
when lightning based zanpakutos and kido exist and the captains need to be fast enough or they would get blitzed

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; as I said, I'll respond to your points in the morning.

 

[AppleLord]

@Warren_Valion It sounds like you're having a rough time. You shouldn't force yourself to comment on something you don't care about if you'd rather not be involved.

As for me, I'm not arguing here just to mess with anybody or because I enjoy it. I'm arguing these points because I do believe there are flaws with some of these methods of scaling and that there are more accurate alternatives.

If the claim holds any weight, work with everyone to resolve the scaling, don't discard every single feat because of a nitpick flaw. Nobody and nothing is perfect.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Nah, I am fine. I just got some school work to do, but I am doing amazing on time.

If I seem a little rough, it's because that's just my personality, when I am not altering my personality to be more formal.


I just couldn't give a shit about this thread, that's why I keep unfollow it after like 10 minutes each time.



Anyway, goodnight. Or whatever it is your reasons for leaving for now.