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The Big Bleach Speed CRT

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Not open for further replies.
Databook Statement

This is the statement from the databook:

雷光の如き神速で白哉を追い詰め、その至近にまで攻め掛かる一護

The official translation puts it as:

“Like lightning, Ichigo pressures Byakuya with god-like speed and attacks him at close range!”

Another translation from IMade puts it as:

“Chasing down Byakuya with great speed like lightning, Ichigo attacks up close!”

Regarding these kinds of statements, I’ll bring up this post from LordGriffin1000 which general sums up our position on them as far as I can tell: https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightning-fast-is-equal-to-lightning-speed.75613/#post-2494922

“Saying someone is "Lightning Fast" is usually treated as hyperbole. It's just a fancy way of saying the character is fast.

You get stuff like this a lot in fiction. Unless their is other things supporting it then no, you can't say the character is actual as fast as lightning with just that statement alone. Now it you has a credible source that stated "He moved as fast as a bolt of lightning" and he easily blized High Hypersonic characters then you might have something.”

The statement doesn’t say that Ichigo is as fast as a lightning bolt. It’s a simile, drawing comparison to lightning to emphasize Ichigo’s huge increase in speed. It’s one of the most common types of statements out there in fiction.

So, the next feat which is being used support for this is the Kido used by Byakuya:

Byakurai

Regarding Byakurai, I’ll address each of the points that are put forward for it to be lightning speed:

If a Lightning Kido looks like Lightning
Click to expand...

The Kido, in each of its manga depictions, does not look like a lightning bolt.
In the anime, sometimes it does resemble lightning and sometimes it does not:


So out of these examples here, there's one version in the anime where it appears to resemble lightning and rest for the manga and their anime depictions do not.

There’s probably more in anime-only scenes where it does resemble lightning, but these are the examples that use the manga itself, it is a great divergence in appearance for the Kido.

acts like Lightning
Click to expand...

The only claim for it so far to act like lightning is that Ichigo is paralyzed shortly after he’s shot through in the shoulder by it.

I don't think this is actually the case. Immediately after Ichigo is shot he can still move and take a step, and he can speak to Byakuya. The paralysis isn't something that happens as soon as he's hit by Byakurai. Also shortly after this Ichigo's Hollow speaks to him and says that every bone in Ichigo's body is creaking from the weight of his Spiritual Pressure, and Byakuya did say that Ichigo has been slowing down over the course of the fight.

It seems more likely to me that Ichigo hitting his limit is what caused him to be unable to move than some kind of delayed effect from the Kido.

And even if we did accept this, this is just 1 of the requirements for resembling real-life lightning. Is that enough?

is literally called lightning
Click to expand...

I’ll concede on this point at least. It is called Byakurai, translated as Pale Lightning / White Lightning, but I don’t think we accept a name of a technique as being proof of it possessing lightning speed.

Gin's Statement

One counter argument to all of this is Gin’s statement. It is one of the few times that Kubo gives us a speed figure within the manga itself.

Gin states that his 13 kilometer Bankai can extend and retract at Mach 500 / 500 times the speed of sound by giving a demonstration to Ichigo of the sound from his clapping reaching him and stating that it is 500 times faster than that.

He then follows it up by saying that his Mach 500 Bankai is the fastest Zanpakuto.

Ichigo struggles to keep up with his Bankai multiple times. such as failing to percieve it here, and here, and only narrowly being able to dodge it.

If Bankai Ichigo, as early as the Soul Society arc, is assumed to be over Mach 1200 - then this would go against him struggling with something a lot slower than that later on.

The only reason why this statement is thrown into question is that in a later scene we have Gin tell Aizen that he lied about the figures he gave for his Bankai.

From this there's two possibilities:

  • Gin lied to both Aizen and Ichigo.
  • Gin lied to only Aizen and not Ichigo.
People who think the former must be the case may say:

  • "Why lie to Aizen and not Ichigo?"
The response: This would be because of the fact that Gin wanted to kill Aizen and not Ichigo. Gin had been trying to trick and kill Aizen for over a century and he explicitly said he was trying to test Ichigo's resolve to see if Ichigo actually had it in him to kill Aizen should Gin fail.

  • Or "If he lied to Aizen, why would he tell the truth to Ichigo there where Aizen could hear him?"
The response: Aizen was busy fighting Isshin in a different part of the city. There's no strong reason to think his senses would pick up on Gin's conversation with Ichigo while he's in the middle of a fight with Isshin.

Since we don't know what values he told Aizen, and because Gin didn't say he was lying when he gave the figures to Ichigo, I don't think we have a good reason to dismiss the Mach 500 figure as being completely made-up and irrevant to scaling.

Novel Fodder

These are the quotes for the fodder in the novel:

"Tokinada laughed loudly as he, of course, bounced back a lightning strike dealt by an enemy with a swing of his sword."

"He was either moving fast enough to react to lightning or he was predicting his enemy's behavior--either way, it was evidence Tokinada possessed abilities in battle that were not to be disregarded."

From this can infer that one of the assassins attacking him using a lightning strike which Tokinada deflected. Only Tokinada directly scales to to this, and even that it is suggested that it is possible his reactions aren't on that level.

You cannot state with certainty to that this scales to the assassin's movement, combat or reaction speed.
You cannot state with certainty that any of the other assassins or fodder-level Shinigami scale to this.
You cannot state with certainty that this assassin, whoever he was, was this fast back in the Soul Society arc, if he even existed back then.
You cannot state with certainty that Soul Society arc characters must be faster or comparable to this future character just because this character possess a lightning-based attack.

When trying to do scaling, you shouldn't be asking "Why can't we scale X to Y?" you should be asking "Why should we?" There are a huge number of assumptions to make in order for this novel statement to be relevant at all to the early arcs of the manga, and virtually no evidence-based arguments for it other than a disbelief that early Bleach characters could be slower in some aspect than later Bleach characters.
 
Damage3245 said:
Databook Statement

This is the statement from the databook:

雷光の如き神速で白哉を追い詰め、その至近にまで攻め掛かる一護

The official translation puts it as:

“Like lightning, Ichigo pressures Byakuya with god-like speed and attacks him at close range!”

Another translation from IMade puts it as:

“Chasing down Byakuya with great speed like lightning, Ichigo attacks up close!”

Regarding these kinds of statements, I’ll bring up this post from LordGriffin1000 which general sums up our position on them as far as I can tell: https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightning-fast-is-equal-to-lightning-speed.75613/#post-2494922

“Saying someone is "Lightning Fast" is usually treated as hyperbole. It's just a fancy way of saying the character is fast.

You get stuff like this a lot in fiction. Unless their is other things supporting it then no, you can't say the character is actual as fast as lightning with just that statement alone. Now it you has a credible source that stated "He moved as fast as a bolt of lightning" and he easily blized High Hypersonic characters then you might have something.”

The statement doesn’t say that Ichigo is as fast as a lightning bolt. It’s a simile, drawing comparison to lightning to emphasize Ichigo’s huge increase in speed. It’s one of the most common types of statements out there in fiction.

So, the next feat which is being used support for this is the Kido used by Byakuya:

Byakurai

Regarding Byakurai, I’ll address each of the points that are put forward for it to be lightning speed:



The Kido, in each of its manga depictions, does not look like a lightning bolt.
In the anime, sometimes it does resemble lightning and sometimes it does not:


So out of these examples here, there's one version in the anime where it appears to resemble lightning and rest for the manga and their anime depictions do not.

There’s probably more in anime-only scenes where it does resemble lightning, but these are the examples that use the manga itself, it is a great divergence in appearance for the Kido.



The only claim for it so far to act like lightning is that Ichigo is paralyzed shortly after he’s shot through in the shoulder by it.

I don't think this is actually the case. Immediately after Ichigo is shot he can still move and take a step, and he can speak to Byakuya. The paralysis isn't something that happens as soon as he's hit by Byakurai. Also shortly after this Ichigo's Hollow speaks to him and says that every bone in Ichigo's body is creaking from the weight of his Spiritual Pressure, and Byakuya did say that Ichigo has been slowing down over the course of the fight.

It seems more likely to me that Ichigo hitting his limit is what caused him to be unable to move than some kind of delayed effect from the Kido.

And even if we did accept this, this is just 1 of the requirements for resembling real-life lightning. Is that enough?



I’ll concede on this point at least. It is called Byakurai, translated as Pale Lightning / White Lightning, but I don’t think we accept a name of a technique as being proof of it possessing lightning speed.

Gin's Statement

One counter argument to all of this is Gin’s statement. It is one of the few times that Kubo gives us a speed figure within the manga itself.

Gin states that his 13 kilometer Bankai can extend and retract at Mach 500 / 500 times the speed of sound by giving a demonstration to Ichigo of the sound from his clapping reaching him and stating that it is 500 times faster than that.

He then follows it up by saying that his Mach 500 Bankai is the fastest Zanpakuto.

Ichigo struggles to keep up with his Bankai multiple times. such as failing to percieve it here, and here, and only narrowly being able to dodge it.

If Bankai Ichigo, as early as the Soul Society arc, is assumed to be over Mach 1200 - then this would go against him struggling with something a lot slower than that later on.

The only reason why this statement is thrown into question is that in a later scene we have Gin tell Aizen that he lied about the figures he gave for his Bankai.

From this there's two possibilities:

  • Gin lied to both Aizen and Ichigo.
  • Gin lied to only Aizen and not Ichigo.
People who think the former must be the case may say:

  • "Why lie to Aizen and not Ichigo?"
The response: This would be because of the fact that Gin wanted to kill Aizen and not Ichigo. Gin had been trying to trick and kill Aizen for over a century and he explicitly said he was trying to test Ichigo's resolve to see if Ichigo actually had it in him to kill Aizen should Gin fail.

  • Or "If he lied to Aizen, why would he tell the truth to Ichigo there where Aizen could hear him?"
The response: Aizen was busy fighting Isshin in a different part of the city. There's no strong reason to think his senses would pick up on Gin's conversation with Ichigo while he's in the middle of a fight with Isshin.

Since we don't know what values he told Aizen, and because Gin didn't say he was lying when he gave the figures to Ichigo, I don't think we have a good reason to dismiss the Mach 500 figure as being completely made-up and irrevant to scaling.

Novel Fodder

These are the quotes for the fodder in the novel:

"Tokinada laughed loudly as he, of course, bounced back a lightning strike dealt by an enemy with a swing of his sword."

"He was either moving fast enough to react to lightning or he was predicting his enemy's behavior--either way, it was evidence Tokinada possessed abilities in battle that were not to be disregarded."

From this can infer that one of the assassins attacking him using a lightning strike which Tokinada deflected. Only Tokinada directly scales to to this, and even that it is suggested that it is possible his reactions aren't on that level.

You cannot state with certainty to that this scales to the assassin's movement, combat or reaction speed.
You cannot state with certainty that any of the other assassins or fodder-level Shinigami scale to this.
You cannot state with certainty that this assassin, whoever he was, was this fast back in the Soul Society arc, if he even existed back then.
You cannot state with certainty that Soul Society arc characters must be faster or comparable to this future character just because this character possess a lightning-based attack.

When trying to do scaling, you shouldn't be asking "Why can't we scale X to Y?" you should be asking "Why should we?" There are a huge number of assumptions to make in order for this novel statement to be relevant at all to the early arcs of the manga, and virtually no evidence-based arguments for it other than a disbelief that early Bleach characters could be slower in some aspect than later Bleach characters.
Click to expand...
Can you address what are your current thoughts on our previous conversation about Tokinada back scaling to all captains at least.
 
I was asked the Lightning speed on my message wall. Currently, I think more evidence is needed of the lightning speed as it doesn't look solid to me, from the evidence above.
 
@AppleLord; I plan on making a thread to address the novel feats specifically and the scaling of the characters involved in the near-future. I'm happy to pick it up at that time.
 
Damage3245 said:
@AppleLord; I plan on making a thread to address the novel feats specifically and the scaling of the characters involved in the near-future. I'm happy to pick it up at that time.
Click to expand...
Thoughts on Hadō #11. Tsuzuri Raiden that conducted through Hisagi’s blade and made Ayon muscles contract?
 
AppleLord said:
Thoughts on Hadō #11. Tsuzuri Raiden that conducted through Hisagi’s blade and made Ayon muscles contract?
Click to expand...
Conductivity isn't exclusive to lightning, it's connected to electricals attacks in general. conductivity is a good supporting feat but it cant be really the only property.

the only way we can infer it to be IRL lightning is if we take the name at face value.
 
Shadow is correct there. It's also debatable whether Ayon's muscles actually contracted or if he was just faking an injury to lure Hisagi closer since Ayon was immediately fine afterwards then broke out.
 
I think Tsuzuri Raiden has better chance of being accepted as real lightning then Byakurai.Its literally called "lightning" and has shown conductivity.Also I dont Ayon is smart enough to feign injury considering he attacked Yama without thinking.
 
Isn't kakuzo lightning accepted as lightning because water conduct it and because is called Lightning by databook?
What is the difference with hado 11? Metal conduct electricity and (lightning) efficiently and electricity move at least as fast as lightning that is why is one of the requirement.
 
-aaronierro looks back and runs away
-rukia questions why he ran


-rukia thinks about it and concludes light might affect him in a way
-she proceeds to use kido to immobilize him to test her theory

things to be noted is that
1-rukia wanted to prevent aaronierro from moving meaning she thinks he is fast enough to dodge again as she questions before "why did he run"
2-rukia wanted to test her theory out if light can affect him implying light didnt hit him the first time

counter argument to this : light needs to touch him for long enough to take effect
but that is an assumption and against the narrative of rukia wanting to test her theory
and rukia has no way of knowing that and believed aaronierro was fast enough to dodge from that distance
 
@Zoro21043; Rukia's actions aren't inconsistent with the interpretation I put forward before. She observed that Aaroniero ran away. She used Kido to make sure he didn't run away. Rukia testing her theory out regarding the light still makes sense either way you look at the feat.
 
So we accept Hado-11 as lightning speed, which is a lightning based kido, but others lightning based kido does not scale? Im just asking to know how this thing works.

Either way, since someone posted the raw, this is another translations for the databook.

I will not partecipate to this discussion further.

@Damage3245 regarding Byakuya vs Yammy, yammy could not see him, while he was able to follow Ichigo. And he was also able to cut him casually while ichigo could not.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Zoro21043; Rukia's actions aren't inconsistent with the interpretation I put forward before. She observed that Aaroniero ran away. She used Kido to make sure he didn't run away. Rukia testing her theory out regarding the light still makes sense either way you look at the feat.
Click to expand...
no it doesnt make sense because rukia has no way of knowing if light needs to be in contact for long enough or not
she questions why he is running and then she remembers what he said about not wanting to be exposed to light outside
and then wants to make sure if it will have an effect and to do that she immobilizes him so he wont run away again as he did previously
 
@DemonGodMitchAubin; thanks for responding.

@Zoro21043; her thought process involves the light and thinking about Aaronerio's wording on the light. Whether he was in it or not, it makes sense either way for Rukia to want to immobilize him so that he cannot escape.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Zoro21043; her thought process involves the light and thinking about Aaronerio's wording on the light.
Click to expand...
Yes she wanted to make sure if it would affect him
Damage3245 said:
Whether he was in it or not, it makes sense either way for Rukia to want to immobilize him so that he cannot escape.
Click to expand...
it doesnt work for both ways as there is nothing implying rukia knew aaronierro needed to be exposed to light for long enough all that we know and rukia knows is that light might have an effect
as she says here "I suspected sunlight would neutralize your transformation"
nowhere is it implied that rukia restrained him because it needed time to take effect it is an assumption
you still have to prove that
 
@Zoro21043; she restrained him to ensure that he would remain within the sunlight. Nothing about the time taken needs to be important from her perspective. So long as the end result is that he's in the sunlight.

It doesn't matter if you think it doesn't work both ways. As far I can tell, it does.

I've answered your question now, and will move on.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Zoro21043; she restrained him to ensure that he would remain within the sunlight.
Click to expand...
yes otherwise he would dodge like before
Damage3245 said:
Nothing about the time taken needs to be important from her perspective. So long as the end result is that he's in the sunlight.
Click to expand...
indeed she doesnt need to take time taken into consideration as you say the end result was her wanting him to be exposed to sunlight meaning he previously wasnt and dodged(which is why she later says i suspected sunlight would have an effect meaning it previously didnt hit him) and rukia believes he was fast enough to dodge from that distance
 
@Zoro21043; that isn't a contradiction. Aaroniero started running almost as soon as the light hit him in the anime.

When Rukia immobilized him, he was held in the light for much longer and then his transformation began to disappear after a certain amount of seconds.

So therefore the light did neutralize his translation, just as she theorized.

There is no contradiction.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Zoro21043; that isn't a contradiction. Aaroniero started running almost as soon as the light hit him in the anime.
Click to expand...
as i said the anime isnt perfect
Damage3245 said:
When Rukia immobilized him, he was held in the light for much longer and then his transformation began to disappear after a certain amount of seconds.

So therefore the light did neutralize his translation, just as she theorized.

There is no contradiction.
Click to expand...
there isnt a contradiction to light having effect but there is a contradiction to what rukia thought as she confirms to us that she suspected light would have an effect (so based on this it means it previously didnt hit him which is why rukia is making sure if it would have an effect) there is nothing suggesting she thought he needed to be exposed for long enough to be affected
she even questioned why he ran and then concludes light will have an effect on him if it hits him
him being exposed for long enough to have an effect is headcannon
 
and i checked the anime and as i said its not perfect

for the first time light entered i used a stopwatch
and from the time light hit aaronierro's face to when he jumped i got around 1.7 seconds

and for the second time
from the time that the anime showed light entering the room to when aaronierro screamed i got around 1.6 seconds

so the anime contradicts itself and isnt accurate as i said
 
Damage3245 said:
@Zoro21043; that isn't what I got. Aaroniero was in the light for longer than that before his transformation was undone.
Click to expand...
no the anime showed us light for around 1.3 seconds not entering
(they showed the rubbles blocking)
and then showed it entering and aaronierro screamed 1.6 seconds after that

so the first value of 1.7 i got from aaronierro getting hit by light till he jumped
while second value of 1.6 from light entering till he screamed
 
I come from the future. On page 25, we discuss Candice Lightning not been fast as lightning.
15f20129719f90a653801546114.jpg
 
@AppleLord; thank you, time travellers.

@Zoro21043; well, I've said my part on it. I'm counting the full amount of time for the transformation to start being undone, not just when he's screaming.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Zoro21043; well, I've said my part on it. I'm counting the full amount of time for the transformation to start being undone, not just when he's screaming.
Click to expand...
well i was just proving that the anime is inaccurate as he was hit for longer before and didnt scream
(actually the other value i got is higher than it should as i got it from light entering the room not when it hit aaronierro like the previous scene so its even more flawed than what i proved)
 
Damage3245 said:
Databook Statement

This is the statement from the databook:

雷光の如き神速で白哉を追い詰め、その至近にまで攻め掛かる一護

The official translation puts it as:

“Like lightning, Ichigo pressures Byakuya with god-like speed and attacks him at close range!”

Another translation from IMade puts it as:

“Chasing down Byakuya with great speed like lightning, Ichigo attacks up close!”

Regarding these kinds of statements, I’ll bring up this post from LordGriffin1000 which general sums up our position on them as far as I can tell: https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightning-fast-is-equal-to-lightning-speed.75613/#post-2494922

“Saying someone is "Lightning Fast" is usually treated as hyperbole. It's just a fancy way of saying the character is fast.

You get stuff like this a lot in fiction. Unless their is other things supporting it then no, you can't say the character is actual as fast as lightning with just that statement alone. Now it you has a credible source that stated "He moved as fast as a bolt of lightning" and he easily blized High Hypersonic characters then you might have something.”

The statement doesn’t say that Ichigo is as fast as a lightning bolt. It’s a simile, drawing comparison to lightning to emphasize Ichigo’s huge increase in speed. It’s one of the most common types of statements out there in fiction.
Click to expand...
To get nitpicky here, the databook isn’t using wording like “lightning fast” it quite literally just says “like lightning.” Both translations draw comparisons to his speed to lightning, the only time the wording becomes hyperbolic is when they say stuff

Damage3245 said:
So, the next feat which is being used support for this is the Kido used by Byakuya:

Byakurai

Regarding Byakurai, I’ll address each of the points that are put forward for it to be lightning speed:



The Kido, in each of its manga depictions, does not look like a lightning bolt.
In the anime, sometimes it does resemble lightning and sometimes it does not:


So out of these examples here, there's one version in the anime where it appears to resemble lightning and rest for the manga and their anime depictions do not.

There’s probably more in anime-only scenes where it does resemble lightning, but these are the examples that use the manga itself, it is a great divergence in appearance for the Kido.
Click to expand...
With Rukia she’s in a Gigai that’s heavily nerfing her powers, and there’s a direct statement that her attacks aren’t what they could be. Rukia can’t summon the full capabilities of Byakurai.

Aizen has demonstrated the ability to neg the effects of attacks with raw reiatsu, so it not effecting him is not a valid counter. We have also seen that lightning doesn’t really paralyze characters if sufficient power: look to young Yama tanking a lightning bolt and plenty of people tanking Candice’s lightning that surpasses real lightning.

Regarding Zommari, what Byakuya hit was a Gemelo Sonido clone, so he didn’t even hit an actual target.

Damage3245 said:
The only claim for it so far to act like lightning is that Ichigo is paralyzed shortly after he’s shot through in the shoulder by it.

I don't think this is actually the case. Immediately after Ichigo is shot he can still move and take a step, and he can speak to Byakuya. The paralysis isn't something that happens as soon as he's hit by Byakurai. Also shortly after this Ichigo's Hollow speaks to him and says that every bone in Ichigo's body is creaking from the weight of his Spiritual Pressure, and Byakuya did say that Ichigo has been slowing down over the course of the fight.

It seems more likely to me that Ichigo hitting his limit is what caused him to be unable to move than some kind of delayed effect from the Kido.
Click to expand...
Ichigo can move just fine after he breaks free of white’s control. His spiritual pressure is still creaking his bones. The only difference being that significant time has passed since being hit by Byakurai. If Ichigo’s spiritual pressure was what slowed him to immobile then he wouldn’t have been able to move later. What happens is this, Ichigo is hit by Byakurai, Ichigo cant

Damage3245 said:
And even if we did accept this, this is just 1 of the requirements for resembling real-life lightning. Is that enough?



I’ll concede on this point at least. It is called Byakurai, translated as Pale Lightning / White Lightning, but I don’t think we accept a name of a technique as being proof of it possessing lightning speed.
Click to expand...

"Gathers high-density spiritual energy at the fingertip and discharges it all at once."

This means literally nothing, All Kido is created through Spiritual Energy, but the Kido spell changes the energy into whatever attack and gains whatever properties apply to the Kido, this includes elemental properties.

Fire Kido burns as Fire does, Wind Kido blows as Wind does, Water Kido makes you wet as Water does - Spiritual Energy by itself doesn't do these things, but through Kido, their energy is transformed into these things and take on these attributes.


If a Lightning Kido looks like Lightning, acts like Lightning, and is literally called lightning. Then it probably is lightning, and thus, is as fast as lightning. Occam's Razor is clear on how to act in these scenarios. -Warren

Regarding the name thing, as per Ichibe’s own words, named things in Soul Society generally take the properties of their names. In the raws Ichibe “named all things within Soul Society.”

Byakurai also seemingly burns/cauterizes the wound displaying a level of heat.
Damage3245 said:
Gin's Statement

One counter argument to all of this is Gin’s statement. It is one of the few times that Kubo gives us a speed figure within the manga itself.

Gin states that his 13 kilometer Bankai can extend and retract at Mach 500 / 500 times the speed of sound by giving a demonstration to Ichigo of the sound from his clapping reaching him and stating that it is 500 times faster than that.

He then follows it up by saying that his Mach 500 Bankai is the fastest Zanpakuto.

Ichigo struggles to keep up with his Bankai multiple times. such as failing to percieve it here, and here, and only narrowly being able to dodge it.

If Bankai Ichigo, as early as the Soul Society arc, is assumed to be over Mach 1200 - then this would go against him struggling with something a lot slower than that later on.

The only reason why this statement is thrown into question is that in a later scene we have Gin tell Aizen that he lied about the figures he gave for his Bankai.

From this there's two possibilities:

  • Gin lied to both Aizen and Ichigo.
  • Gin lied to only Aizen and not Ichigo.
People who think the former must be the case may say:

  • "Why lie to Aizen and not Ichigo?"
The response: This would be because of the fact that Gin wanted to kill Aizen and not Ichigo. Gin had been trying to trick and kill Aizen for over a century and he explicitly said he was trying to test Ichigo's resolve to see if Ichigo actually had it in him to kill Aizen should Gin fail.

  • Or "If he lied to Aizen, why would he tell the truth to Ichigo there where Aizen could hear him?"
The response: Aizen was busy fighting Isshin in a different part of the city. There's no strong reason to think his senses would pick up on Gin's conversation with Ichigo while he's in the middle of a fight with Isshin.

Since we don't know what values he told Aizen, and because Gin didn't say he was lying when he gave the figures to Ichigo, I don't think we have a good reason to dismiss the Mach 500 figure as being completely made-up and irrevant to scaling.
Click to expand...
As readers we are told once that Gin’s Zanpakuto can move at Mach 500 and that it’s the fastest. We are then told that Gin lied about how fast it moves.

If we accept that what Gin says to Ichigo is truth then we still run into a contradiction: Byakuya’s petals move faster than Mach ~900. So Gin says his Mach 500 Bankai is the fastest but that’s incorrect and doesn’t match up with our scaling.

Or we accept that Gin was lying like he said. Think about this Gin likely told Aizen the speed of his blade when he was way way younger than he is now. So he kept referring to it as such even if it was faster to maintain consistency with what he told Aizen so he wouldn’t blow his cover. We also see that Aizen heard Gon say “I’m gonna kill ya” to Ichigo from way off screen

Damage3245 said:
Novel Fodder

These are the quotes for the fodder in the novel:

"Tokinada laughed loudly as he, of course, bounced back a lightning strike dealt by an enemy with a swing of his sword."

"He was either moving fast enough to react to lightning or he was predicting his enemy's behavior--either way, it was evidence Tokinada possessed abilities in battle that were not to be disregarded."

From this can infer that one of the assassins attacking him using a lightning strike which Tokinada deflected. Only Tokinada directly scales to to this, and even that it is suggested that it is possible his reactions aren't on that level.
Click to expand...
Tokinada scales to FTL, this is no anti feat for Tokinada.

Damage3245 said:
You cannot state with certainty to that this scales to the assassin's movement, combat or reaction speed.
You cannot state with certainty that any of the other assassins or fodder-level Shinigami scale to this.
You cannot state with certainty that this assassin, whoever he was, was this fast back in the Soul Society arc, if he even existed back then.
You cannot state with certainty that Soul Society arc characters must be faster or comparable to this future character just because this character possess a lightning-based attack.

When trying to do scaling, you shouldn't be asking "Why can't we scale X to Y?" you should be asking "Why should we?" There are a huge number of assumptions to make in order for this novel statement to be relevant at all to the early arcs of the manga, and virtually no evidence-based arguments for it other than a disbelief that early Bleach characters could be slower in some aspect than later Bleach characters.
Click to expand...
We have a nobody character with a Zanpakuto that can attack with lightning speeds. He’s a nobody which means this is a common occurrence. Stop making him out to be someone unique and special. He is a face in the crowd, indistinguishable from the rest. The fact that a no name can have a lightning speed Zanpakuto and no one makes a big deal about it, implies it has never been a big deal. There’s tens of thousands of fodder Shinigami easily, and for your argument to pass you’d have to assume that he’s the only one to have ever had a lightning speed unreleased Zanpakuto. It just doesn’t work, he’s generalized with the rest of the fodder like we do with the rest of the fodder in the verse. This nobody’s Zanpakuto can reach lightning speeds in the hands of a stranger who picked it up off the battlefield, yet Captains can’t do that in a century of training?
 
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