The Big Bleach Speed CRT

[Hasch]

Yoruichi equal to Shunsui? Yoruichi was bleeding from Soifon's shikai. Yoruichi lost to Askin Nakk Le Varr a newbie to the Elite Quincy and Lille Barro was the leader of the Elite Quincy and a God. The Godslayer sword only cuts Gods. None of those characters are stronger than Shunsui according to Yamamoto, who is the exception of having transcendent reiatsu too. Check the updated images above.

Tokinada said Yoruichi and Kyoraku' reiatsu combined exceeded his, meaning they alone do not.

Tokinada can't replicate KS because he doesn't have as much reiatsu as base Aizen.

Shunsui thinks Tokinada has incredible reiatsu that is at the same tier as other nobles like Yoruichi and Byakuya.

Shunsui was one shoted by Aizen in FKT.

Urahara and Isshin are weaker but close to Aizen's reiatsu level seeing FKT.

All those things mean they are stronger than Shunsui and that nobody is trascendent tier in the manga aside from the top 3 characters.

 

[AppleLord]

Tokinada said Yoruichi and Kyoraku' reiatsu combined exceeded his, meaning they alone do not.

Reiatsu goes up when shikai or bankai is activated.

Tokinada can't replicate KS because he doesn't have as much reiatsu as base Aizen.

Base Shunsui and Shikai Shunsui don't have reiatsu compared to Aizen. Aizen isn't a good example since he was hidding his power to the entire seireitei for decades.

Shunsui thinks Tokinada has incredible reiatsu that is at the same tier as other nobles like Yoruichi and Byakuya.

Praised isn't evidence. Many shinigami have been praised by stronger shinigami for their reiatsu.

Shunsui was one shoted by Aizen in FKT.

You mean the one Lisa kicked and told to stop acting? That was shikai Shunsui.

Urahara and Isshin are weaker but close to Aizen's reiatsu level seeing FKT.

Urahara one-shot Base Aizen with Kido. Aizen said he would had died if it wasn't for the Hogyoku and Isshin is above base Aizen. I gave reasons for his scaling above. (Isshin pushed base aizen to evolve and survive an attack that K.O. Yoruichi and Urahara in Base and proceeded to have his reiatsu drain for 6 months.) Shunsui didn't even used his bankai and was holding back and acting like a child. Ask Lisa.

All those things mean they are stronger than Shunsui and that nobody is trascendent tier in the manga aside from the top 3 characters.

I explained all those things.

source

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The statement was that generally, the power of the weapon increases 5 to 10x. That's the average right there. Which means that weaker ones can be less than 5xs and stronger ones can be greater than 10xs.

5-10x is a range my guy... an average would be (x1 + x2)/2 or in this case 7.5x

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I see no reason to believe Zommari or Nnoitra staments about sonido and hierro when there's do many instances that show greater reiatsu = greater stats.

We really sayin this when the databook backs up the Zommari statement... nvm it appears this got cleared up.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Damage3245 Actually no, Byakuya should be Sub-Rel when using his hands, since he's Mach 4631.25 for matching Zommari, his petals would be twice that when using his hands (Mach 9262.5 or Sub-Rel). We have it in his key that he's MHS+ and then his attack speed doubles when using his hands (which would be Sub-Rel).

 

[Damage3245]

Hmm. We might need to discuss that some more because I'm not sure that Zommari actually has any evidence for a speed increase in his Resureccion.

He and Byakuya are roughly on par with each other when they fight without in Zommari's base form (at least Byakuya isn't completely blitzing him like he should be if he's 5 times faster) and after Zommari uses his Resureccion, Byakuya still manages to overwhelm him. That suggests to me that Zommari didn't really get any faster - and Byakuya doesn't seem like the type to hold back greatly against an opponent.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Hmm. We might need to discuss that some more because I'm not sure that Zommari actually has any evidence for a speed increase in his Resureccion.

Base​

Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Stated to have the fastest Sonido amongst the Espada [it is reiterated in a Databook] so he should be faster than the other Espada)

This is for Zommari ^

As per your sandbox MHS+ is Mach 4631.25

Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Kept up with Zommari who was stated to be the fastest Espada [was also reiterated in a Databook]), higher attack speed when controlling his Bankai (When used with the palm of your hand, Senbonzakura doubles in speed)

This is for Byakuya^

Mach 4631.25 * 2 = Mach 9262.5 or Sub-Rel, so that higher should be Sub-Relativistic

This has nothing to do with Zommari's Res.

That's the only hiccup I see with the current sandbox.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Post-Resurrection

Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Accomplished this feat), Sub-Relativistic with Hollow Mask



Fake Karakura Town Arc

Speed: Massively Hypersonic (Superior to Post-Resurrection Bankai Ichigo, who was struggling to keep up with him), higher attack speed with Bankai, even Massively Hypersonic+ attack speed with Buto Renjin (Buto Renjin doubles his Bankai's attack speed)

?

 

[Damage3245]

Ah - I think I see the issue.

I originally envisioned scaling base Zommari to being superior to base Ulquiorra (like how we scale the base version of Nnoitra to being superior to the other Espada for Hierro). And in one of USk's edits to the sandbox he changed Zommari's rating to be MHS+ instead of MHS.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I originally envisioned scaling base Zommari to being superior to base Ulquiorra. And in one of USk's edits to the sandbox he changed Zommari's rating to be MHS+ instead of MHS.

I mean regarding the Espada statements, I feel it's fair to say fastest encompasses base and Res, since every Espada's Res is common knowledge. Zommari, nor the databook, make an effort to distinguish that his fastest solely applies to base.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; Zommari nor the databook doesn't state that Zommari is superior to Ulquiorra after he's undergone a Resureccion either. Not sure where you've gotten the info that every Espada's Res is common knowledge.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Zommari nor the databook doesn't state that Zommari is superior to Ulquiorra after he's undergone a Resureccion either. Not sure where you've gotten the info that every Espada's Res is common knowledge.

Because every Espada knows everyone has a Res that potentially amps their stats 5-10x, yet Zommari is still the fastest. I exclude SE because Ulq kept that a secret. Maybe common knowledge isn't the best phrase, but rather simple deductive reasoning. Res amps stats 5-10x so all the Espada know everyone has at least Res, meaning that Zommari would know that everyone is potentially 5-10x faster than their base, yet he's still the fastest. So either A, his Res is MHS+ or B, he's just MHS+ in general.

 

[Damage3245]

Because every Espada knows everyone has a Res that potentially amps their stats 5-10x, yet Zommari is still the fastest. I exclude SE because Ulq kept that a secret.

That isn't the same thing as Zommari being aware of Ulquiorra's limits. That's like trying to say that Zommari must be at least 10 times faster than base Ulquiorra because if he wasn't then hypothetically Zommari could be wrong. Unless of course Zommari is wrong.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That isn't the same thing as Zommari being aware of Ulquiorra's limits. That's like trying to say that Zommari must be at least 10 times faster than base Ulquiorra because if he wasn't then hypothetically Zommari could be wrong. Unless of course Zommari is wrong.

Except the databook reiterates that Zommari is correct. If it was just Zommari's statement I'd believe you but it's also the databook. I see no reason to disregard the databook statement, I think at bare minimum Res Zommari should be faster than the rest of the Res Espada.

 

[Damage3245]

Except the databook reiterates that Zommari is correct.

Like I said, the databook doesn't say that Zommari is faster than Resureccion Ulquiorra. We should be conservative in our assumptions on this by saying that it's likely that he's at least faster than base Ulquiorra. We could say that he's possibly faster too - but I don't think a statement that has no supporting evidence is good enough to rate him as being faster than Resureccion Ulquiorra.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Like I said, the databook doesn't say that Zommari is faster than Resureccion Ulquiorra. We should be conservative in our assumptions on this by saying that it's likely that he's at least faster than base Ulquiorra. We could say that he's possibly faster too - but I don't think a statement that has no supporting evidence is good enough to rate him as being faster than Resureccion Ulquiorra.

Sure, but the statement also is a blanket "fastest Espada" so that should carry over to Res, aka Res Zommari is as fast if not faster than Res Ulq. Why state that he's the fastest if in his respective forms compared to the Espada's same forms, he isn't the fastest.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; I just double-checked the databook and it says "Skilled at Sonido and is said to be the fastest among all Espadas."

So that's not exactly an objective statement that he is faster than all Espadas, just that he is said to be. By who? Only himself from what I've seen.

A big theme in the battle between him and Byakuya was also arrogance. Wouldn't be surprised if his boastful behaviour was, well, just that.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; I just double-checked the databook and it says "Skilled at Sonido and is said to be the fastest among all Espadas."

So that's not exactly an objective statement that he is faster than all Espadas, just that he is said to be. By who? Only himself from what I've seen.

A big theme in the battle between him and Byakuya was also arrogance. Wouldn't be surprised if his boastful behaviour was, well, just that.

I have a problem with you saying that.

Gin states his Zanpakuto is Mach 500 and then says that he lied. But the databook reiterates that it's Mach 500 so we accept it as Mach 500.

Zommari states he is the fastest Espada and the battle has a tone of arrogance. But the databook reiterates that he's the fastest, thus we should accept it as such. If we are going to maintain consistency with our databook interpretations.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; Gin never says that he lied about it being Mach 500.

Also, Zommari being faster than all other Espada in base would still make it accurate for him describe himself as the "fastest Espada". We'd have to make the additional assumption that he knows everyone's Resureccion to say that applies to anything more.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Gin never says that he lied about it being Mach 500.

Yes he did.

Aizen could hear Gin when Gin threatened to kill Ichigo, what makes you think he didn't hear the Mach 500 statement. The only time we are told Gin's speed by Gin is when he says Mach 500, to which he said he lied about.

Why would Gin give a different speed when Aizen is nearby that would just blow his cover unnecessarily early.

 

[Damage3245]

Aizen was in the middle of a battle with Isshin at the time, being flung across the city. I don't see how you can say he could overhear Gin describing his Bankai to Ichigo.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Aizen was in the middle of a battle with Isshin at the time, being flung across the city. I don't see how you can say he could overhear Gin describing his Bankai to Ichigo.

He overheard Gin go "Ima kill ya Ichigo" mid battle and then jumped on over and said sup.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Regardless we hear Gin's Bankai speed once, to which he later goes on to say my Bankai doesn't extend as fast as I said. Logically we can only connect that to the Mach 500 speed, as we never hear him say another speed so you'd have to assume he told Aizen Mach 500 as well.

 

[Zoro21043]

isnt aizen the same person who could sense yhwach's reiatsu(after 10 years) all the way from muken while sealed? i dont see how he wouldnt hear gin and its not like he was in a heated battle against isshin he was clearly not going all out

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; well, we don't have to assume that. Part of the issue is that you're making logical inferences into some kind of unshakeable proof. You can connect the two statements together, and infer that he told Aizen that same figure, but that doesn't mean he must have done that. The databook statement existing doesn't create a contradiction if you don't make the earlier assumption.

Anyway, regarding Zommari, I think we should make his rating to be this: "At least Massively Hypersonic, likely higher" (Claims to possess the fastest Sonido among the Espada. Gave Byakuya some trouble during their duel, forcing him to use a special technique to escape).

And for Byakuya, we could make him; "At least Massively Hypersonic, likely higher" (Blitzed Zommari to deal him a killing blow), Massively Hypersonic+ attack speed when controlling his Bankai (Doubles the attack speed of his Bankai when directly controlling it).

 

[AppleLord]

Can Zommari even moved in his ball form? Whatever the case with Gin's speed may be, one of the databook says that it has an ability that doubles his speed to mach 1000.

 

[Tyri456]

How Zoomari is slower than Ulquiorra when is stated to be the fastest.

Byakuya was also one of the strongest at that point.

I have a problem with Urahara, he didn’t trained at all, he was always that fast.

 

[Damage3245]

@Tyri456; the only person who has stated that Zommari is the fastest is himself. Since everyone is in their base forms nearly all the time, it is reasonable to assume that he is at least comparing them to himself. But we don't have much reason to think he's witnessed every Espada's Resureccion and is comparing his base form to each of them.

 

[Zoro21043]

500 mach argument is stupid not only do feats and cals prove it wrong and inconsistent
gin states he lied about both his bankai ability and speed

and if we go by author intention (ik its not accepted here and im not debating for what im about to say just showing author intention goes against mach 500) shuhei in base dodged the negaccion which kubo calls light and fodder soul reapers have lightning speed attacks without a shikai which is mach 1200+ so gins mach 500 is wrong and a lie as he says its the fastest zanpakuto to ichigo

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Tyri456; the only person who has stated that Zommari is the fastest is himself. Since everyone is in their base forms nearly all the time, it is reasonable to assume that he is at least comparing them to himself. But we don't have much reason to think he's witnessed every Espada's Resureccion and is comparing his base form to each of them.

He doesn't have to witness everyone's Res to conclude he's the fastest if he's at least 5x faster than everyone else in base, because Res is at least 5x.

 

[Damage3245]

@Zoro21043; if you think Kubo intends for everyone to be faster than light, then why do you think he would have Gin lie about his (impressive) Bankai speed to be as low as Mach 500? That's even more bizarre than just assuming Gin's Bankai to be at, or near, Mach 500.

 

[Tyri456]

I find pretty dumb the fact that base Ichigo post grimmjow fight is as fast as the base Ichigo in SS arc.
There is really no way to find accurately his speed increase via back scaling To his previous form?

 

[Zoro21043]

@Zoro21043; if you think Kubo intends for everyone to be faster than light, then why do you think he would have Gin lie about his (impressive) Bankai speed to be as low as Mach 500? That's even more bizarre than just assuming Gin's Bankai to be at, or near, Mach 500.

i cant say why he would without assuming
but it doesnt change the fact that it is a lie gin himself states that it is a lie to aizen

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Zoro21043; if you think Kubo intends for everyone to be faster than light, then why do you think he would have Gin lie about his (impressive) Bankai speed to be as low as Mach 500? That's even more bizarre than just assuming Gin's Bankai to be at, or near, Mach 500.

Ichigo went from a normal human to fighting death gods in the span of a few months. Ichigo can't actually see sound, so being the (not so normal) normal teenager he is, 500 times faster than sound would appear super impressive. Ichigo in all likelihood has no idea how fast he or his opponents are, so when Gin says that to Ichigo (being a human) is like I guess that would be fast. But Ichigo doesn't have anything to compare that too, it's the first time in the series someone attached a number to their speed.

 

[Zoro21043]

i would like to bring these up again
-yammy's cero scaling to base yoruichi as she couldnt dodge it
i can see people arguing that she was carrying orihime but she was also carrying ichigo when she blitzed byakuya and her speed rating is from scaling to byakuya so it shouldnt change anything
-applying x20 to that speed for bala and scaling urahara and whoever scales to him to balas speed as urahara dodged it
-scaling fake karakura aizen and yamamoto to unohanas speed as aizen didnt fear her and only took yamamoto as a threat from the people present there

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; a fair point.

I'm going offline now but I'll continue this tomorrow. I'm currently preparing a list of Post-Timeskip changes, and there's something about the True Shikai Ichigo calc that I want to address but I'll double-check it with some calc group experts first to make sure I'm not crazy.

@Zoro21043; Urahara doesn't dodge the Bala through pure speed. He explains to Yammy that he analyzed the Reiatsu composition and the effects of Yammy's muscles to time it, which allows him to counter and dodge it. You also don't need to be equally as fast as something in order to avoid it.

 

[Zoro21043]

thats true only after the first encounter
-urahara is hit from behind and caught by surprise by the first bala
-urahara has enough time to replace himself with a gigai without yammy noticing while he keeps spamming balas as he states later
-he analyzes the bala while yammy is spamming balas
so he should scale as yammy was nonstop spamming and urahara managed to replace himself with a gigai and then analyzed it

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

I find pretty dumb the fact that base Ichigo post grimmjow fight is as fast as the base Ichigo in SS arc.
There is really no way to find accurately his speed increase via back scaling To his previous form?

I agree with this.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm going offline now but I'll continue this tomorrow. I'm currently preparing a list of Post-Timeskip changes, and there's something about the True Shikai Ichigo calc that I want to address but I'll double-check it with some calc group experts first to make sure I'm not crazy.

The only TS Ichigo calc I can think of is him dodging the Quincy arrows but that's not used in his scaling, so I'm confused.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Post-Resurrection

Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Accomplished this feat), Sub-Relativistic with Hollow Mask



Fake Karakura Town Arc

Speed: Massively Hypersonic (Superior to Post-Resurrection Bankai Ichigo, who was struggling to keep up with him), higher attack speed with Bankai, even Massively Hypersonic+ attack speed with Buto Renjin (Buto Renjin doubles his Bankai's attack speed)

?

Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?