The Big Bleach Speed CRT

[Jvando]

Let me preface my response by reiterating something I said earlier. I’d rather not be labeled a dictator for disagreeing with someone:

Let me make something abundant clear.

I do not care wether any verse other than Naruto, FT, and OP get an upgrade or downgrade. Every other verse I either don’t know much about or I could care less about.

I’m not here to “downgrade” bleach because quite frankly, I could care less if bleach was MFTL+, Subsonic, or anything in between. What I do care about is giving my opinion on what I believe is accurate because damage asked me to and I have a fair enough knowledge on Bleach to comment.

If you feel like we’re all just here to “downgrade” Bleach and not offer a different perspective, then you miss the entire point of this wiki.

With that, I’d like to say that the reasoning that Arc has put down to suggest that Aaroniero dodged the light before it hit him completely hinges on a flimsy premise.

The idea that the Author shaded in his face to depict him as “being in the dark” is an assumptions of authorial intent. Regardless of wether your assumption is correct or not, the fact of the matter is that any number of assumptions of can be made regarding what Kubo intended. I for one believe it was shading done to exemplify Aaroniero’s extreme reaction to him being exposed to light. More so due for the fact that Rukia, in the same panel, is shaded despite being exposed to light.

Now, you have put up a pretty decent regarding why your interpretation is correct, however, at the end of the day, it’s just an assumption piled on top on another assumption to justify an artistic liberty. To base this entire feat mainly off of this? I don’t think I can agree with that.

Feats that are inherently dubious need to be looked at from a different angle such as a different media like the anime because we can at least expect that those adapting the manga to the anime would adapt it faithfully. However, even that you do not want to accept leaving everything, again, to that single flimsy premise.

At the end of the day, I don’t think I’ll be able to change your mind, but I hope you at least see why I can’t agree with you Arc.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

When, during this process, does the first photon enter the room? Between which steps?

Well I can say objectively that light is able to enter when we see the T-shaped hole. Assuming light is faster than sound in Bleach, we know light enters after Aaroniero here's the cracks and no later than when we see the hole. So, for safety and lowball the calc assumes when we see the hole, which fits within the possible range of when light can enter.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The idea that the Author shaded in his face to depict him as “being in the dark” is an assumptions of authorial intent. Regardless of wether your assumption is correct or not, the fact of the matter is that any number of assumptions of can be made regarding what Kubo intended. I for one believe it was shading done to exemplify Aaroniero’s extreme reaction to him being exposed to light. More so due for the fact that Rukia, in the same panel, is shaded despite being exposed to light.

So according to you, the author wanted to exemplify the shock of being hit by light by darkening a character's person.

Whereas, I argue that the author wanted to exemplify the fact that Aaroniero was cloaked in shadow. Which is backed by the narrative that Aaroniero can't use his abilities in light. Aaroniero's disguise showed no indication of dropping. So, no my interpretation is not based on assumption, I back it up with the information fed to us from Aaroniero.

On the other hand, assuming he's illuminated is nothing more than an assumption with no backing.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; we could take a look at the anime adaptation of these events, to see it from a different perspective and see which side it supports.

 

[Jvando]

Aaroniero's disguise showed no indication of dropping.

You’re using this as support for your point, but wasn’t it said that his disguise wouldn’t immediately drop? As such, this wouldn’t back up your point at all and would still mean you are assuming.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You’re using this as support for your point, but wasn’t it said that his disguise wouldn’t immediately drop? As such, this wouldn’t back up your point at all.

That's never stated to be the case. The only time we see his face in the light it has markings on it indicating his transformation is dropping.

 

[Damage3245]

You’re using this as support for your point, but wasn’t it said that his disguise wouldn’t immediately drop? As such, this wouldn’t back up your point at all and would still mean you are assuming.

It wasn't stated - but when Aaroniero was exposed to the light fully by Rukia, he was held in place and unable to escape. The process for his disguise being removed took place over multiple panels.

 

[Jvando]

Gotcha so the process of his disguise disappearing isn’t instant so it can’t be used to support the notion that the Author shaded his face in to show that he was cloaked in shadows. As such, we are still stuck we two assumptions about what the shading meant which remains an iffy premise to base a calc on to begin with, not factoring in the other points against it that have been made.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It wasn't stated - but when Aaroniero was exposed to the light fully by Rukia, he was held in place and unable to escape. The process for his disguise being removed took place over multiple panels.

We see marking immediately, we don't see any markings when he dodges sunlight.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Gotcha so the process of his disguise disappearing isn’t instant

Incorrect, while his disguise doesn't drop immediately, markings (likely burns) immediately appear indicating a drop in disguise, which we don't see the first time.

 

[Jvando]

Incorrect, while his disguise doesn't drop immediately, markings (likely burns) immediately appear indicating a drop in disguise, which we don't see the first time.

Not necessarily. Looking at the Panel again, the light would have only hit his back which was heavily clothed plus he has that long piece of fabric covering the back of his head. It never actually would have directly hit his face meaning he wouldn’t have gotten burn marks either way.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; what do you think about the proposal from Jvando and AppleLord, to look at the anime's depiction of the events to help resolve this?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Jvando

https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0266-012.png

Here we see no markings that indicate he's been hit by light.

https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0266-017.png

The first panel in which we can clearly see his face we see markings (the light is still at his back here so the light doesn't need to hit his face it just needs to hit him).

what do you think about the proposal from Jvando and AppleLord, to look at the anime's depiction of the events to help resolve this?

Personally, I believe the anime contradicts the manga. The anime has the light hit his back for an extended period of time with no adverse effects only to later be hit by light on the back and it does have adverse effects.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Use the anime. That is accepted in VSBW so far. If you don't want to. Please give a rebuttal. Not just say "That's not a feat."

I’m not touching this discussion with a 1000 KM long pole but I will say one thing.

I’m getting kind of confused by this constant shifting back and forth with the anime canon. “Use the anime!” here, “don’t use the anime!” there.

What’s the general consensus for this?

 

[Jvando]

I still stand by my previous point.

He was clothed and his face wasn’t directly facing the light either way so he wouldn’t get those “sunburns”. Additionally, in the bottom panel, it appears as if his face is directly facing the light and it’s the only part of his body we see affected.

Now even if you don’t agree with what I said above, the fact remains that using his lack of burn marks is still not a strong foundation for accepting this calc. For one, with his reaction speed, even if he was hit by the light, there’s nothing to suggest that fraction of a second of an exposure would be enough for him to get burn marks. In the second image you showed, he was held in place for a period of time before his face started to melt. Assuming it only took 2 seconds or even 1 second for his skin to develop burn marks, so long as he moved out of the sun in a fraction of that time in the previous panel (when he wasn’t held down), he wouldn’t develop any marks.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

He was clothed and his face wasn’t directly facing the light either way so he wouldn’t get those “sunburns”. Additionally, in the bottom panel, it appears as if his face is directly facing the light and it’s the only part of his body we see affected.

When his disguise is dropped its from light that hit his back. If all he had to do was keep his back to the light he wouldn't have had to dodge in the first place. It doesn't matter where sunlight hits Aaroniero.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Now even if you don’t agree with what I said above, the fact remains that using his lack of burn marks is still not a strong foundation for accepting this calc. For one, with his reaction speed, even if he was hit by the light, there’s nothing to suggest that fraction of a second of an exposure would be enough for him to get burn marks. In the second image you showed, he was held in place for a period of time before his face started to melt. Assuming it only took 2 seconds or even 1 second for his skin to develop burn marks, so long as he moved out of the sun in a fraction of that time in the previous panel (when he wasn’t held down), he wouldn’t develop any marks.

Aaroniero says "I can't use my powers in the sunlight" which implies sunlight has some sort of immediate effect.

 

[AppleLord]

I’m not touching this discussion with a 1000 KM long pole but I will say one thing.

I’m getting kind of confused by this constant shifting back and forth with the anime canon. “Use the anime!” here, “don’t use the anime!” there.

What’s the general consensus for this?

I wouldn't know. I wasn't part of that discussion, but surely the rule page anime used should give you some info about it.

 

[Zoro21043]

i skimmed through this and I agree with arc here, based on this we should tell that light didnt touch aaroniero as rukia wanted to make sure if it will work or not meaning it previously didnt touch him, she also had to restrain him in case he dodged light again

 

[Duedate8898]

Which would mean he dodged light.

No it doesn't. The fact he moved after the hole appeared/while it was appearing just means he moved after the hole appeared/while it was appearing. In fact, given that once again we're shown a sound, he looks back, and the hole is already in place he'd most likely already be getting hit with the light by the time he sees it.

We see more than just his eyes in the manga to get picky about it. Regardless, the anime has sun hit his eyes, the manga does not.

https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0266-012.png, all that is seen in that panel is covered in shadow here: . Simple as that.

The panel before it we literally cannot tell if he's being affected or not because it doesn't give us a clear shot of his face.

We can tell, since there is no sign of steam/smoke coming off of his face or body. That points towards him not being affected as soon as the sunlight hit him.

The reference from when light came into the room is the sun in the panel above. But as I said we don't need to calc it.

The panel of the light peaking above the clouds, and the panels of Uuryu's arrow being deflected before light entered the room also has Yhwach just sitting in his chair and talking about dreams and nightmares in between them. That light is far more related to Yhwach realizing its morning than it does to Jugram realizing the same thing. And once again, the inherent lack of reference between when the arrow is fired and light reaches the room means there is no solid proof to assert that the arrow is being communicated as fast as or faster than light.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

No it doesn't. The fact he moved after the hole appeared/while it was appearing just means he moved after the hole appeared/while it was appearing. In fact, given that once again we're shown a sound, he looks back, and the hole is already in place he'd most likely already be getting hit with the light by the time he sees it.

He moved after the T-shaped hole appeared. The current argument is if he's actually in darkness in that one panel or not. Also, "he'd get hit by the light by the time he sees it" argument was debunked, because by that logic no one on this site can be FTL, since irl light needs to hit your eyes for you to perceive shit, so characters wouldn't technically see any light attack until it already hit them going by real life. I forget who exactly said it, but if you scroll up or maybe back a page, someone puts it beautifully.

We can tell, since there is no sign of steam/smoke coming off of his face or body. That points towards him not being affected as soon as the sunlight hit him.

There's not steam coming off in the next panel either.

Simple as that.

Regarding the anime, I stated above my reasons for believing it contradicts the manga. Light hits his back in anime for extended period of time, nothing happens, light hits his back again for an extended period of time, his disguise begins to drop. Anime is inconsistent with how light impacts Aaroniero.

Again, light doesn't need to hit his face to drop the disguise it just needs to hit him in general. He had his back turned to the light when his disguise dropped.

 

[Jvando]

Even if the effect was immediate, it wouldn’t mean that his disguise would be immediately affected upon exposure to light. If that was the case and his powers just “shut off”, then we would see his entire disguise crumble at once the moment he is exposed to sunlight in the bottom page you linked. Instead, we see it happening over a course of a few seconds.

With his reaction speed, even if he was hit by the light, there’s nothing to suggest that fraction of a second of an exposure would be enough for him to get burn marks.

He would thus just need to escape the sunlight before it started to affect his disguise.

 

[Duedate8898]

Regarding the anime, I stated above my reasons for believing it contradicts the manga. Light hits his back in anime for extended period of time, nothing happens, light hits his back again for an extended period of time, his disguise begins to drop. Anime is inconsistent with how light impacts Aaroniero.

Again, light doesn't need to hit his face to drop the disguise it just needs to hit him in general. He had his back turned to the light when his disguise dropped.

The manga does not agree with that though. Again, a panel of him completely covered in light. And he's showing no signs of his disguise breaking. Clearly he can take brief exposure.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Even if the effect was immediate, it wouldn’t mean that his disguise would be immediately affected upon exposure to light. If that was the case and his powers just “shut off”, then we would see his entire disguise crumble at once the moment he is exposed to sunlight in the bottom page you linked. Instead, we see it happening over a course of a few seconds.

He would thus just need to escape the sunlight before it started to affect his disguise.

Why does that have to be inherently the truth? We aren't given a timeframe for his disguise dropping. The "his disguise takes time to drop" argument isn't a valid one. In the first clear shot we see of Aaroniero in light his disguise is fading, aka an immediate effect.

The manga does not agree with that though. Again, a panel of him completely covered in light. And he's showing no signs of his disguise breaking. Clearly he can take brief exposure.

Yeah it does, light hits his back and his disguise drops. Prior to that light isn't shown hitting him at all. We don't get a clear shot of the full body panel so you can't use it as evidence for either side.

 

[BlackeJan]

14 pages and no clear winner. Aren’t y’all tired? just get staff here for crying out loud, u guys are saying the same thing over and over

 

[AppleLord]

No it doesn't. The fact he moved after the hole appeared/while it was appearing just means he moved after the hole appeared/while it was appearing. In fact, given that once again we're shown a sound, he looks back, and the hole is already in place he'd most likely already be getting hit with the light by the time he sees it.

https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0266-012.png, all that is seen in that panel is covered in shadow here: . Simple as that.

We can tell, since there is no sign of steam/smoke coming off of his face or body. That points towards him not being affected as soon as the sunlight hit him.

The panel of the light peaking above the clouds, and the panels of Uuryu's arrow being deflected before light entered the room also has Yhwach just sitting in his chair and talking about dreams and nightmares in between them. That light is far more related to Yhwach realizing its morning than it does to Jugram realizing the same thing. And once again, the inherent lack of reference between when the arrow is fired and light reaches the room means there is no solid proof to assert that the arrow is being communicated as fast as or faster than light.

Jugram wields the Almighty at night, and that power returns to Yhwach at dawn. Uryu's entire goal was to fight him until dawn. The sunlight is related to both scenarios shown one after another.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

14 pages and no clear winner. Aren’t y’all tired? just get staff here for crying out loud, u guys are saying the same thing over and over

Earlier people brought up earlier the reason they don't like doing this is because staff has demonstrated that they solely side with other staff here. In an early matter in this thread, I had the majority support and the opposing side was entirely staff (+duedate). So the majority supported argument was shut down because staff. They may say "well this way we keep fanboys from bandwagoning" but that goes both ways because while to them maybe they see it as fanboys bandwagoning to us we see it as staff bandwagoning against it. Being a staff member doesn't mean you hold a more level-headed opinion than non-staff.

When staff like Ant, say stuff like "only staff opinion matters" like he did in a DB/DBS thread it really makes it hard to have faith in staff when by the virtue of that statement they can assert inaccuracies and it be accepted as truth here. Not saying any of this has to be the case, just explaining why many of us don't like the "let staff decide" approach.

I've gotten damage to drop/stop talking on every issue he has with the calc (he hasn't admitted concession but when you consistently ignore my points it's hard to take that as anything but a concession), except the shading issue. However, all of that is seemingly ignored for one iffy point on if Aaroniero being shaded means he's in shadows or illuminated.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; staff are generally trusted to be more level-headed and neutral than most users. As Jvando stated earlier, accuracy is the most important thing.

The nature of this feat, seems in essence to be "Is it absolutely necessary for Aaroniero to move out of the way of light itself, or are there plausible alternatives for what really happened?"

Jvando and I have gone into reasons for why the feat isn't as simple as "Aaroniero had to move out of the way of the light".

The context of the fight and the multiple panels showing his disguise breaking down indicate to me that his disguise wouldn't just instantly shatter the nanosecond that a photon hits him. It takes some amount of time. That means he could be hit by light, briefly mind you, and move out of the way before the rubble completely collapses and more light is let through.

The anime supports him being briefly exposed to light before he runs away.

And Rukia counters this by immobilizing him first then exposing him to light.

We don't need to assume that Aaroniero had to outrun the light before it fully entered the room and hit him.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; staff are generally trusted to be more level-headed and neutral than most users. As Jvando stated earlier, accuracy is the most important thing.

The nature of this feat, seems in essence to be "Is it absolutely necessary for Aaroniero to move out of the way of light itself, or are there plausible alternatives for what really happened?"

Jvando and I have gone into reasons for why the feat isn't as simple as "Aaroniero had to move out of the way of the light".

The context of the fight and the multiple panels showing his disguise breaking down indicate to me that his disguise wouldn't just instantly shatter the nanosecond that a photon hits him. It takes some amount of time. That means he could be hit by light, briefly mind you, and move out of the way before the rubble completely collapses and more light is let through.

The anime supports him being briefly exposed to light before he runs away.

And Rukia counters this by immobilizing him first then exposing him to light.

We don't need to assume that Aaroniero had to outrun the light before it fully entered the room and hit him.

Again with the discrediting a calc because other possibilities exist. The most probable outcome is what should matter no? There's so much more evidence to support my claim than your's. Yes your interpretation is possible, so is mine, the difference is that I've provided countless pieces of hard evidence that support my point with the only counter being "maybe the shading doesn't indicate he's in the shade"

Also, everyone but a few people on here that I've talked to don't believe the staff to be more level-headed, personally I base my assumptions on someone's level-headedness on their own merits. But all this is starting to tell me is that this site is powerscale that satisfies the staff. Which is a damn shame.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; to be fair I think you stated earlier in the thread that you don't even use VSBW for powerscaling and you're here because you enjoy a good argument, and that you have your own system off of the site. There are other places you can go to if you want to explore alternative powerscaling and ratings.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; to be fair I think you stated earlier in the thread that you don't even use VSBW for powerscaling and you're here because you enjoy a good argument, and that you have your own system off of the site. There are other places you can go to if you want to explore alternative powerscaling and ratings.

I enjoy good arguments.

But you make a fair point, lemme know when this CRT is finished cuz I have a CRT in mind and I'm curious to see how the people hash it over. Also curious to see if there's any valid counter points to it.

 

[Tyri456]

14 pages and no clear winner. Aren’t y’all tired? just get staff here for crying out loud, u guys are saying the same thing over and over

Do you think we are discussing Aroniero feat for 14 pages or what? Some things are already solved this is just another point, the scaling need to be revised since it's changed in both feat and scaling so it is not like we have a "yes" or "no" to be applied to the entire thread and points discussed, stop spamming the same useless comment.

And beside the Aroniero feat,

@Damage3245 what is the updated sandbox? Your or USkaveri one? or none of them?

 

[Damage3245]

@Tyri456; I haven't the ratings themselves, but I've added a scaling explanation to the top of mine here.

@USklaverei; thoughts on the explanation at the top of the sandbox?

 

[USklaverei]

@Damage3245
It's good, we just need to update the sandbox now with the changes, like Hypersonic + and High Hypersonic and also the 2x of Full Hollow.
When making changes, tell me I’ll help you.

 

[BlackeJan]

Do you think we are discussing Aroniero feat for 14 pages or what? Some things are already solved this is just another point, the scaling need to be revised since it's changed in both feat and scaling so it is not like we have a "yes" or "no" to be applied to the entire thread and points discussed, stop spamming the same useless comment.

Naw. Im guessing u haven't seen the amount of things Damage and Arc have been saying right?

 

[Jvando]

Tbh Arc, I would hardly call what you’ve said to support your assumptions “Hard evidence”. From where I stand, I just see an assumption stacked on top of another assumption just to justify another assumption:

(Assumption 1): There were no “burn marks” on Aaroniero’s face as such he must have dodged before the light had hit him

I’ve already explained why this doesn’t have to be the case. Regardless of whether you agree with me or not, you have to agree that there are multiple explanations for this, one being he simply wasn’t exposed to enough light for a long enough period of time for his disguise to start to fade. The effect just might not be instant and he got out of the way after light had hit him just in time before his disguise started to fade. You also brought up a good point:

We aren't given a timeframe for his disguise dropping

You’re right, we aren’t, so why should we assume it’s instant anymore than it takes a few seconds? Additionally, in the panel you do bring up to say it’s instant, I could very well say “he was held in place for a second or two and wasn’t able to escape in time”. The panels itself don’t tell us the effect of his transformation loss is instant as the timeframe between panels can easily be at least a couple seconds.

You then use assumption 1 to try and support Assumption 2: The shading in the panel indicates his face was covered by shadows

This assumption has already been discussed in depth about why this might not be the case and the “evidence” you use to support this assumption is just another assumption.

Then you use assumption 2 to try and claim Assumption 3: Aaroniero dodged the light from the hole before it hit him

All I’m saying is that there isn’t any “hard evidence” to support your main assumption being the Assumption of authorial intent in the shading. It’s just assumptions stacked together to try and justify a feat that’s dubious at best.

You think staff just like to FRA each other? Staff are humans took and each have their own biases of their own, big or small. Sometimes we agree, and sometimes we don’t but if most staff agree with a certain interpretation of things, more often than not, there’s a good reason and not just staff supporting each other.

 

[AppleLord]

Tbh Arc, I would hardly call what you’ve said to support your assumptions “Hard evidence”. From where I stand, I just see an assumption stacked on top of another assumption just to justify another assumption:

(Assumption 1): There were no “burn marks” on Aaroniero’s face as such he must have dodged before the light had hit him

I’ve already explained why this doesn’t have to be the case. Regardless of whether you agree with me or not, you have to agree that there are multiple explanations for this, one being he simply wasn’t exposed to enough light for a long enough period of time for his disguise to start to fade. The effect just might not be instant and he got out of the way after light had hit him just in time before his disguise started to fade. You also brought up a good point:

You’re right, we aren’t, so why should we assume it’s instant anymore than it takes a few seconds? Additionally, in the panel you do bring up to say it’s instant, I could very well say “he was held in place for a second or two and wasn’t able to escape in time”. The panels itself don’t tell us the effect of his transformation loss is instant as the timeframe between panels can easily be at least a couple seconds.

You then use assumption 1 to try and support Assumption 2: The shading in the panel indicates his face was covered by shadows

This assumption has already been discussed in depth about why this might not be the case and the “evidence” you use to support this assumption is just another assumption.

Then you use assumption 2 to try and claim Assumption 3: Aaroniero dodged the light from the hole before it hit him

All I’m saying is that there isn’t any “hard evidence” to support your main assumption being the Assumption of authorial intent in the shading. It’s just assumptions stacked together to try and justify a feat that’s dubious at best.

You think staff just like to FRA each other? Staff are humans took and each have their own biases of their own, big or small. Sometimes we agree, and sometimes we don’t but if most staff agree with a certain interpretation of things, more often than not, there’s a good reason and not just staff supporting each other.

Leaders turning an eye on the people and not trying to convince the people to their side is called dictatorship.

 

[BlackeJan]

So pretty much, you are pissed that things aren't going your way?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just going to clarify again that I also agree with Damage and Jvando.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, the dumpster fire in this thread needs to end.

Stop accusing people of being dictators all because they have what we call “disagreements”. It doesn’t do anything but make more trouble.