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The Big Bleach Speed CRT

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They do matter because Accepting Premises allows us to continue the chain of logic in regards to the debate. if we dont agree on the premises then the conclusions in the argumentation wont matter. because the reference point itself needs to be argued then.

Im doing this so we can sum up both of our arguments so we can follow the chain of logic and let the people vote which argument they agree with. oppose to strawmanning the opposition.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
They do matter because without Accepting Premises allows us to continue the chain of logic in regards to the debate. if we dont agree on the premises then the conclusions in the argumentation wont matter. because the reference point itself needs to be argued then.

Im doing this so we can sum up both of our arguments so we can follow the chain of logic and let the people vote which argument they agree with. oppose to strawmanning the opposition.
Click to expand...
Ok my premise has nothing to do with Ichigo being x amount faster than Byakuya, that is saved for the scaling threads. My premise revolves solely around the nature of the calc.
 
If one person got super defensive that he would be the problem. If everyone got defensive that just proves how on edge we are because are arguments are being refuted based on the premise "there is another possibility"
 
This has also devolved from a discussion to a debate so I'm treating it more as such, as I've noticed you guys will pick apart comments unrelated to my actual premise if I let something slip, rather than address my debunks and arguments.
 
I would say Ichigo is at least 10 to 20 March faster then Byakuya.
Like if Byakuya is 230 Mach then Ichigo would we 250 or 260 mach speed.
 
okay

We both Agree Ichigo is faster than Byakuya. His speed is being used to deflect all the senbon petals.
Your calc works on the assumption that Ichigo Shaved off all the petal that could realistically touch his Sword while me and Damage have argued that he doesnt need to have literally touched every petal because causation and effect would dictate he would knock the other petals back, however, in respose your argument is that Ichigo cant do that because he was previously unable to slice through the senbon wall thingy, which then devolved into us arguing about KE of Ichigo's speed vs his two handed Swing.

This is where I was last in our argument yesteday.

does everything above check out so far?
 
Yes and No.
Today there are changes.
From my perspective Ichigo can't do that because Byakuya is applying counter force so expect those that bear the full brunt of Ichigo's Strike. 99% of other petals are able to recover and move towards Ichigo So He would have to hit them again.. 1% are those that could be ignored that is why we take mid end calc rather than High end to make the calc more accurate. Idk if others support me on that.

.. I have no idea about that KE thing.

.................

So to me argument looks like this

Your calc works on the assumption that Ichigo Shaved off all the petal that could realistically touch his Sword while me and Damage have argued that he doesnt need to have literally touched every petal because causation and effect would dictate he would knock the other petals back, however, in respose your argument is that Ichigo cant do that because Byakuya is applying counter force so expect those that bear the full brunt of Ichigo's Strike. 99% of other petals are able to recover and move towards Ichigo So He would have to hit them again.. 1% are those that could be ignored that is why we take mid end calc rather than High end to make the calc more accurate.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
Your calc works on the assumption that Ichigo Shaved off all the petal that could realistically touch his Sword while me and Damage have argued that he doesnt need to have literally touched every petal because causation and effect would dictate he would knock the other petals back, however, in respose your argument is that Ichigo cant do that because he was previously unable to slice through the senbon wall thingy, which then devolved into us arguing about KE of Ichigo's speed vs his two handed Swing.
Click to expand...
I've already addressed and refuted this, but let me sum up my refutation.

Here we can get a gauge for how thick the petal pillars have to be to block Tensa Zangetsu.

Here we see that the petal pillars that attack Ichigo are actually thiccer than the ones that blocked his swing.

Here we see bits and pieces flying away, not entire chunks. This supports the notion of Ichigo shaving off thin layers rather than knocking through large heaps of petals. This being further supported when we see Ichigo fail to knock away a large mass of petals earlier.

Here Byakuya comments on the "impossibility" of Ichigo's feat, which while it means nothing in a vacuum, it insinuates that what Ichigo did was closer to the more extreme end of things. That extreme end being swatting away a small amount of petals per swing. As it is far more impossible to swat each petal 1 to 1 than massive chunks per swing. Also, Byakuya saying "swatted them all away" implies contact with each petal, unless there is evidence to say otherwise (which there is not).

For my calc, assuming the petals line Ichigo's blade is just to get the maximum petals that could be shaved off and still qualify for thin layer and not be a chunk. It was in an attempt to lowball for safety.

Edit: Shadow I appreciate your willingness to engage in actual discourse and engage my actual argumentation.
 
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Never imagined people can be so skeptical and extremely conservative on assuming always the lowest thing when the author didnt shown anything supporting that for a mach 100 calc, Hope all the verse on the wiki are treated like that with extreme safe positions regardless and not just the 5 most famous.
 
Truly I always feel that I am looking through colored glasses because usually Calcs with far less info and support and far more contradictions get accepted while this is not getting accepted but like I said I might be looking with colored glasses and all verses are treated like this.
 
> Here we see bits and pieces flying away, not entire chunks. This supports the notion of Ichigo shaving off thin layers rather than knocking through large heaps of petals. This being further supported when we see Ichigo fail to knock away a large mass of petals earlier.

I disagree. seeing pieces of the senbon doesn't invalidate Ichigo swatting large collections of petals, because if Ichigo is fast enough he can still clear away large amounts of petals with his swings while still leaving residue like those in the image.
 
As far as I am aware is only the big 3 and other popular verses

For other less popular verses is easier to get things accepted etc.
 
I think that Shadow is right here. Those aren't necessarily like the first layer of Senbon being cleared by his strikes... but just what is remaining to be cleared after Ichigo swatted the rest aside.

Hence why you don't see the rest of the "pillars of Senbonzakura" visible in the panel. Especially since immediately after that panel all of the other Senbonzakura petals are blown aside around Ichigo.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
> Here we see bits and pieces flying away, not entire chunks. This supports the notion of Ichigo shaving off thin layers rather than knocking through large heaps of petals. This being further supported when we see Ichigo fail to knock away a large mass of petals earlier.

I disagree. seeing pieces of the senbon doesn't invalidate Ichigo swatting large collections of petals, because if Ichigo is fast enough he can still clear away large amounts of petals with his swings while still leaving residue like those in the image.
Click to expand...
This isn't the main point that invalidates chunks.

Ichigo failed to swing through a thinner chunk prior to this feat.

The image with bits and pieces flying away is just supporting evidence.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
> Here we see bits and pieces flying away, not entire chunks. This supports the notion of Ichigo shaving off thin layers rather than knocking through large heaps of petals. This being further supported when we see Ichigo fail to knock away a large mass of petals earlier.

I disagree. seeing pieces of the senbon doesn't invalidate Ichigo swatting large collections of petals, because if Ichigo is fast enough he can still clear away large amounts of petals with his swings while still leaving residue like those in the image.
Click to expand...
The thing is we already saw ichigo trying to go againts a collection of peals and his attack was easily blocked
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
okay

We both Agree Ichigo is faster than Byakuya. His speed is being used to deflect all the senbon petals.
Your calc works on the assumption that Ichigo Shaved off all the petal that could realistically touch his Sword while me and Damage have argued that he doesnt need to have literally touched every petal because causation and effect would dictate he would knock the other petals back, however, in respose your argument is that Ichigo cant do that because he was previously unable to slice through the senbon wall thingy, which then devolved into us arguing about KE of Ichigo's speed vs his two handed Swing.

This is where I was last in our argument yesteday.

does everything above check out so far?
Click to expand...
Ithink Shadow makes sense having read up to this.
 
You are taking about a scenario where there is extra energy wrapped around Ichigo's sword and his sword can cover far larger area.
This is refuted by two point
when white takes over he says that Ichigo is being crushed by pressure because he isn't releasing his energy.
when Byakuya says that ichigo's bankai enhances his physical properties.
oh wait three. Like said above when Ichigo tries to slice through a large chunk.
 
@A
Arc7Kuroi said:
This is the primary piece of evidence for Ichigo not being able to cleave through chunks.
Click to expand...
Ichigo can cut through them if his swinging harder.

you argued earlier that Ichigo being X2 as fast cant make up the difference in KE but the problem is that Ichigo isnt X2 as fast. Byakuya is moving X2 his normal speed. Ichigo is even faster than that.

Ichigo swatting away all the petals>double senbon speed > normal senbon speed> two handed Ichigo.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
@A

Ichigo can cut through them if his swinging harder.

you argued earlier that Ichigo being X2 as fast cant make up the difference in KE but the problem is that Ichigo isnt X2 as fast. Byakuya is moving X2 his normal speed. Ichigo is even faster than that.

Ichigo swatting away all the petals>double senbon speed > normal senbon speed> two handed Ichigo.
Click to expand...
Ichigo is unquantifiably faster, you can't make that AP argument. I've already debunked the AP argument.

Nowhere is it stated or shown Ichigo was swing with more AP, only that his speed changed, and I've shown why faster =/= more AP all the time.

This argument of yours is predicated on an "if" you need to prove that "if" which you cannot because we don't see him cleave through chunks.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Ichigo is unquantifiably faster, you can't make that AP argument. I've already debunked the AP argument.
Click to expand...
his KE would be stronger aswell, and no you didn't debunk this argument, you debunked using the reference point that Ichigo is only twice as fast and used that to extrapolate Ichigo only swinging his arms.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
would his KE stronger aswell, and no you didn't debunk this argument, you debunked using the reference point that Ichigo is only twice as speed annd used that to extrapolate Ichigo only swinging his arms.
Click to expand...
KE is based on speed and mass.
You actually cannot prove his KE would be definitely higher when he deflects the petals.

We literally see Ichigo using only his single arm like a whip. Only his arm has the movement lines lol.
 
why are you equating speed and AP.
In terms of Speed the argument would be Ichigo's speed swatting away all the petals>double senbon speed > normal senbon speed this.
In terms of attack and defense.
Senbon defence>2 handed strike attack>1 handed strike attack>senbon defense while attacking.
 
Ichigo’s Bankai(Fake) condenses all his energy into his blade and clothes which amplify his stats. There isn’t a single time I’ve seen Ichigo speeding around someone to generate KE in order to harm them. It literally doesn’t work like that between Shinigami.
 
Btw as a subtext you must remember Senbons nature.

durability via 1 petal is x then durabilty while defending via 100 mil petals would be 100 mil*X

While attacking the stats would shift. The Attack Y would become

number of petals*Y (number of petals depending of how many directions were they divided in assuming that petals are divided equally.)
So his bankai is ever changing in terms of defense and attack the only thing that is constant is speed.
So the KE argument doesn't hold. I guess?
 
> Nowhere is it stated or shown Ichigo was swing with more AP, only that his speed changed, and I've shown why faster =/= more AP all the time.

your argument for why faster =/= more AP was debunked aswell

>his argument of yours is predicated on an "if" you need to prove that "if" which you cannot because we don't see him cleave through chunks.

and your argument entirely relies on assuming he shaved all the petals. which we already argued against, you realize what your doing is Circular reasonong right?

You: ichigo shaved all the petals

Us: Disagree and give a reason why

You: the shaving isnt the main point of the argument but ichigo not being able to break through the Senbon

Us: Disagree and give a reason why

You: no my interpretation is correct because he shaved all the petals. (See above)
 
Allow me to tell you why your KE argument doesn't work.

For Ichigo's single-handed sword swing to have more KE than his full body two-handed sword swing, it would need to be ~squareroot(20) times faster (you need to prove this). We have no idea how fast Ichigo was travelling with his full body swing, therefore you cannot prove that Ichigo swung with more energy.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
> Nowhere is it stated or shown Ichigo was swing with more AP, only that his speed changed, and I've shown why faster =/= more AP all the time.

your argument for why faster =/= more AP was debunked aswell
Click to expand...
No it wasn't, what was the debunk? I said faster doesn't always lead to an increas in AP. You all insuated KE is only proportional to speed but that's false. You have to prove the increase in speed squared was greater than the decrease in mass to say it lead to an AP increase.

Shadowbokunohero said:
and your argument entirely relies on assuming he shaved all the petals.
Click to expand...
Byakuya says he did. Lol applying Occam's Razor and contextualizing Byakuya's statement proves my point. "Impossible he swatted them all away" why would we assume he didn't swat them all away and say that he swatted some away which swatted others away. There's no need to complicate Byakuya's statement.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
> Nowhere is it stated or shown Ichigo was swing with more AP, only that his speed changed, and I've shown why faster =/= more AP all the time.

....... all the petals. (See above)
Click to expand...
You are wrong. The whole thing is that what Arc is arguing on is based on Images and manga and statements while you are trying to create a hypothetical situation that disproves that. Or can you show me any prove that supports your interpretation from manga?
 
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