The Big Bleach Speed CRT: Part 2 - Post-Timeskip

[Arkenis]

Just a thought, I haven't read the fight in a while but there is a statement from Urahara earlier in the series that when a spirit is near death they get an amp. So it could be the only reason tsukishima could keep up with 2x bankai is because he got faster. I agree though that a 2x amp isn't really a massive increase that tsukishima should receive a possibly rating for the feat.

 

[Damage3245]

@Nelliels; it's a likely rating now.

 

[Arkenis]

@UchihaSlayer96; Likely could also work.

As for manually controlling the Bankai, I don't know about how well that translates over to reaction speeds. Just because someone can pilot a remotely controlled plane that can fly as superhuman speeds doesn't mean they have superhuman reactions.

I'm pretty sure if Byakuya can react to and hit tsukishima and tsukishima can react to the 2x amp then his reaction should scale to it especially since controlling something like this up close is a little different than piloting a plane. One needs to keep up with the direction of the petals travel to aim them at a moving target and the other is just simple change in directions and isnt a physical moving of the plane.

 

[Arkenis]

In conclusion, Ginjo is saying that her lightning strike isn't compare to "the speed of light, about 186,000 miles per second." But the lightning she summons from clouds is LS.

Here are a few quotes I found about who scales to her lightning feats.

if thats true then most of the sterns would be ls via scaling above her right?

 

[Damage3245]

@Nelliels; it's not true. You can safely ignore AppleLord's post there. Candice's lightning is not lightspeed.

 

[Arkenis]

oh

 

[Ovy7]

So, what happened with the calc of Pre-TS Uryu's perception speed that was like sub-rel?

 

[Damage3245]

So, what happened with the calc of Pre-TS Uryu's perception speed that was like sub-rel?

To be honest, something about that calc doesn't sit right with me. For some reason it is using the circumference of a circle for the circumference of Uryu's sword? It's a bit weird, unless I'm misunderstanding it.

 

[Ovy7]

Then just use the circumference of an ellipse (?). I did a little recalc using that and got mach 10500 instead of 14847 that it was originally.

Tho I aproximated the width of the "sword" to 0.015m as I'm at work and can't do pixel scaling.

 

[Ovy7]

Also, if the calc is weird we can easily use that as reaction speed, because he can perceive and count 1.5M cycles a second, so that's 1/1500000 = 0.00000066666s for 1 cycles. Going by the Reaction page, that's MHS+, and by calcs you can react to a mach 4400 attack from 1m away with that reaction speed.

 

[AppleLord]

Just a thought, I haven't read the fight in a while but there is a statement from Urahara earlier in the series that when a spirit is near death they get an amp. So it could be the only reason tsukishima could keep up with 2x bankai is because he got faster. I agree though that a 2x amp isn't really a massive increase that tsukishima should receive a possibly rating for the feat.

 

[AppleLord]

@Nelliels; it's not true. You can safely ignore AppleLord's post there. Candice's lightning is not lightspeed.

Ginjo said her arrows are not as fast as a lightning strike, which IS LS. I didn't say her arrows were LS.

Candice's other attack she used against Ichigo was the one to be fast as a lighting strike.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

How is a lightning strike LS if I may ask?

 

[Damage3245]

Also, if the calc is weird we can easily use that as reaction speed, because he can perceive and count 1.5M cycles a second, so that's 1/1500000 = 0.00000066666s for 1 cycles. Going by the Reaction page, that's MHS+, and by calcs you can react to a mach 4400 attack from 1m away with that reaction speed.

Jvando and I covered this in the previous thread, but it isn't actually a calc for reaction speed, but perception speed. Just because Uryu can percieve spiritual energy that fast does not mean he could react to or dodge a Sub-Relativistic attack.


Also, just a general announcement to anyone worried about Bleach ratings - it's not like these are going to be the last revisions forever on the subject. I have a lot of issues remaining still with the profiles scaling and many justifications. And we have upcoming revisions for multipliers and novel feats/characters. I'm just making what are, as far as I can tell, the necessary amount of revisions to account for updated calcs.

If that means we leave the FTL ratings untouched for now and concentrate on everybody else, I'm fine to do that as well. But I do think that, for the time being, we should remove the FTL calc and the associated ratings until we can fully resolve the scaling of the characters.

We also need to adjust the keys of multiple characters, particularly some of the Sternritter. Kenpachi as well. I have no idea why Kenpachi has a key for his Post-Unohana Training self and his Post-Gremmy fight self.

 

[SilentBob34]

There's really no reason to remove a calc entirely if there's nothing wrong with it. Sounds like you want to get rid of their FTL scaling pretty fast.

 

[Ovy7]

Jvando and I covered this in the previous thread, but it isn't actually a calc for reaction speed, but perception speed. Just because Uryu can percieve spiritual energy that fast does not mean he could react to or dodge a Sub-Relativistic attack.

Yeah, it's perception. Tho it could be used to scale people that went FTE to him, I guess, as they should be faster than he could perceive (1/1.5M of a second).

 

[Damage3245]

There's really no reason to remove a calc entirely if there's nothing wrong with it. Sounds like you want to get rid of their FTL scaling pretty fast.

I think that it would be an outlier with the rest of the verse's stats as they are.

It was less of an issue before, when there were multiple Relativistic calcs for the verse.

I'm not saying we throw out the calc entirely - but I think that the best thing to do would be a soft reset on the verse by scaling everybody without it, and then sorting out the scaling properly afterwards.

There is the other alternative; of revising just the characters who don't scale to the FTL calc first, and then making a judgement on the FTL calc later.

 

[Ovy7]

Then just use the circumference of an ellipse (?). I did a little recalc using that and got mach 10500 instead of 14847 that it was originally.

Tho I aproximated the width of the "sword" to 0.015m as I'm at work and can't do pixel scaling.

Ok, after a little pixel scaling, the width of the "sword" is 1.95cm, and the length of the sword is 53.6cm. Plugin in those values in this calculator, the circumference is 1.1914m

Changin the values from his calc with the ones from above, the result is 3574200 m/s or mach 10503.

 

[SilentBob34]

The only reason there's no more realistic feats is because you're lowballing and turning down basically any upgrade attempt. There's still the distance from the Soul King to the Seireitei to discuss which could help with a lot of supporting evidence for faster feats. Well, unless we use your version of the calc which I've seen assumes Ichigo's max speed is mach 1 at max speed, which would mean downgrading the entire verse too that or slower because there's no way true shikai Ichigo is slower than Orihime's speed at the beginning of the series.

 

[Damage3245]

@SilentBob34; I'm not advocating that we use any calc for the Soul King Palace / Seireitei distance. I think it introduces too many scaling inconsistencies.

Call it lowballing if you want, that doesn't concern me. It's just as easy to say that everyone being in favor of FTL for so many characters based on a single calc (which relies on the assumption that Mask's attack is lightspeed) is wanking the verse.

Let's try and fix the verse's ratings first, then solve each of the issues. There's still multiple problems with the verse at the moment like the unnecessary keys which I mentioned above.

 

[USklaverei]

There's really no reason to remove a calc entirely if there's nothing wrong with it. Sounds like you want to get rid of their FTL scaling pretty fast.

That's what he wants to do from the start and no matter how much is argued, he is a member of the team and it will be pushed down the throat anyway.

 

[Damage3245]

That's what he wants to do from the start and no matter how much is argued, he is a member of the team and it will be pushed down the throat anyway.

If I was forcing it on you, I'd be editing the profiles without even making a CRT. I'm making a CRT in order to get help and other opinions on it, and ultimately approval.

Obviously not everyone is going to be in agreement. Bleach fans aren't going to like losing their super high ratings, that's for sure - and I don't take great pleasure in it either.

 

[USklaverei]

You know can't change profiles without doing a CRT, but for that reason, you do one and no matter how much people disagree with your opinion, in the end, what is pushed is yours, since you are a member of team, in addition, there will always be another team member who has not read 10% of the CRT and say "Damage is right"

 

[AppleLord]

Jvando and I covered this in the previous thread, but it isn't actually a calc for reaction speed, but perception speed. Just because Uryu can percieve spiritual energy that fast does not mean he could react to or dodge a Sub-Relativistic attack.


Also, just a general announcement to anyone worried about Bleach ratings - it's not like these are going to be the last revisions forever on the subject. I have a lot of issues remaining still with the profiles scaling and many justifications. And we have upcoming revisions for multipliers and novel feats/characters. I'm just making what are, as far as I can tell, the necessary amount of revisions to account for updated calcs.

If that means we leave the FTL ratings untouched for now and concentrate on everybody else, I'm fine to do that as well. But I do think that, for the time being, we should remove the FTL calc and the associated ratings until we can fully resolve the scaling of the characters.

We also need to adjust the keys of multiple characters, particularly some of the Sternritter. Kenpachi as well. I have no idea why Kenpachi has a key for his Post-Unohana Training self and his Post-Gremmy fight self.

If it isn't a reaction speed how can Uryu count Cirucci feather vibrations and block them?

 

[Damage3245]

If it isn't a reaction speed how can Uryu count Cirucci feather vibrations and block them?

Blocking them has nothing to do with how fast her feather's are vibrating.

 

[AppleLord]

Blocking them has nothing to do with how fast her feather's are vibrating.

There are gaps between Cirucci's feathers. If Uryu couldn't react to their speed, his sword would have misplace the attack in between them. Essentially, Cirucci would had block his attack and counter. Uryu wouldn't had countered her vibrations with his own.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Damage, it really doesn't though. Earlier you said it would cause fodder to scale to Ichigo's true speed when we don't know his actual true speed. We do know he's casually faster than lightning though which would be a good lowball to his speed, but I know you're gonna say it's calc stacking when it's literally the same feat but it's okay to assume with your calc his speed is mach 1. And again, there's also Ichigo blitzing the quincy girls after crashing into the clock tower who definitely scale to lightning speed since according to a quote I saw earlier, Ginjo was able to react to her lightning point blank and she in return was able to react to him.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Damage Sorry if I sound disrespectful in any way, I honestly do appreciate the work you're trying to do but some of you're suggestions I think sound like you don't want to accept anything other than what you think is right.

 

[AppleLord]

@Damage, it really doesn't though. Earlier you said it would cause fodder to scale to Ichigo's true speed when we don't know his actual true speed. We do know he's casually faster than lightning though which would be a good lowball to his speed, but I know you're gonna say it's calc stacking when it's literally the same feat but it's okay to assume with your calc his speed is mach 1. And again, there's also Ichigo blitzing the quincy girls after crashing into the clock tower who definitely scale to lightning speed since according to a quote I saw earlier, Ginjo was able to react to her lightning point blank and she in return was able to react to him.

He just doesn't believe the distance to be that enormous between two dimensions that are connected through an interdimensional bridge of gates. Eliminating that calc also eliminates the calc of Yhwach raising the Soul King palace because we don't have a distance.

 

[Purgy]

I had a feeling that was Damage's goal all along lol, lower the speed ratings as much as possible so he could dismiss Renji's feat as an outlier, I might have even brought it up in a previous thread.

Mask's thing was heavily discussed and accepted to be light speed, I'm pretty sure you even partook in that discussion.

Regardless, I don't see how it can be an outlier when

1. It's Renji's first feat after training heavily so their previous ratings don't really get to be used to claim it's an outlier
2. It scales to the top and god tiers of the verse; Elites in their Vollstandig, Yhwach, Ichigo, top tier Captains and a couple others, the Captains who scale to it had either trained or received power ups, the Elites have no anti feats, Yhwach is Yhwach, Ichigo is Ichigo, there's not really any issues with the people that scale to it.
3. There are quite a lot of light feats in Bleach, and while most aren't accepted as light speed, given the sheer number of them, it's worth considering author intent.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Ovy7 seems to be the only one to try and calc Ichigo blitzing the quincy girls which I appreciate greatly.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

The feat also meets standarts for being LS

And the distance is needed for some characters that scale to that

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage, it really doesn't though. Earlier you said it would cause fodder to scale to Ichigo's true speed when we don't know his actual true speed. We do know he's casually faster than lightning though which would be a good lowball to his speed, but I know you're gonna say it's calc stacking when it's literally the same feat but it's okay to assume with your calc his speed is mach 1. And again, there's also Ichigo blitzing the quincy girls after crashing into the clock tower who definitely scale to lightning speed since according to a quote I saw earlier, Ginjo was able to react to her lightning point blank and she in return was able to react to him.

Trying to put Ichigo's speed that low for the sake of the calc is hiding an outlier.

Let's say that Ichigo's speed for the entire journey was Mach 1294, like you're assuming. That would make the distance 15179400 kilometers (about 39.5 times the distance between the Moon and the Earth), since his journey took him 9 and a half hours.

Things like Mimihagi, and Yhwach's Auswahlen are assumed to cross that same distance in about 3 to 5 seconds from what I recall. At five seconds, that puts Yhwach's Auswahlen at over 10 times the speed of light.

Who does this affect? Well, Liltotto for example, who before the distance calc was removed got her rating from dodging the Auswahlen, making her about 80% as fast as Auswahlen.

So approximately 8 times the speed of light for Liltotto and the other Sternritter girls. And this is just from assuming that True Shikai Ichigo's top speed is lightning speed...

You can't see why this is a little problematic?

This is why it would be way, way better in my view to just not bother with the distance calculation. It produces horrificly inflated results. No matter how you look at it, you end up with Liltotto being about 5403 times faster than True Shikai Ichigo's maximum speed.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Trying to put Ichigo's speed that low for the sake of the calc is hiding an outlier.

Let's say that Ichigo's speed for the entire journey was Mach 1294, like you're assuming. That would make the distance 15179400 kilometers (about 39.5 times the distance between the Moon and the Earth), since his journey took him 9 and a half hours.

Things like Mimihagi, and Yhwach's Auswahlen are assumed to cross that same distance in about 3 to 5 seconds from what I recall. At five seconds, that puts Yhwach's Auswahlen at over 10 times the speed of light.

Who does this affect? Well, Liltotto for example, who before the distance calc was removed got her rating from dodging the Auswahlen, making her about 80% as fast as Auswahlen.

So approximately 8 times the speed of light for Liltotto and the other Sternritter girls. And this is just from assuming that True Shikai Ichigo's top speed is lightning speed...

You can't see why this is a little problematic?

This is why it would be way, way better in my view to just not bother with the distance calculation. It produces horrificly inflated results.

"Other femritters"

Only one that dodge that was liltoto

 

[SilentBob34]

Except that's not his true speed?? Like I said, we don't know his true speed, what we do know is he's casually faster than lightning so using that as a base for his speed for his travel from the soul king palace to the seireitei should be perfectly fine. Honestly, Arc7Kuroi's and USklaverei's solution seems to be the best middle ground.

 

[Damage3245]

Except that's not his true speed?? Like I said, we don't know his true speed, what we do know is he's casually faster than lightning so using that as a base for his speed for his travel from the soul king palace to the seireitei should be perfectly fine. Honestly, Arc7Kuroi's and USklaverei's solution seems to be the best middle ground.

Assuming a random lower value, because the alternative is pure calc stacking, is not okay. It would also fall under this part of the Calc Stacking page:

Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.

This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.

Assuming Ichigo to be lightning speed, just like the character in the example being assumed to be Supersonic, just for the sake of another calc, is not allowed.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Assuming a random lower value, because the alternative is pure calc stacking, is not okay. It would also fall under this part of the Calc Stacking page:





Assuming Ichigo to be lightning speed, just like the character in the example being assumed to be Supersonic, just for the sake of another calc, is not allowed.

Is not an assumption cus we know he is casually above it as we can see when he fights the femritters

 

[AppleLord]

Trying to put Ichigo's speed that low for the sake of the calc is hiding an outlier.

Let's say that Ichigo's speed for the entire journey was Mach 1294, like you're assuming. That would make the distance 15179400 kilometers (about 39.5 times the distance between the Moon and the Earth), since his journey took him 9 and a half hours.

Things like Mimihagi, and Yhwach's Auswahlen are assumed to cross that same distance in about 3 to 5 seconds from what I recall. At five seconds, that puts Yhwach's Auswahlen at over 10 times the speed of light.

Who does this affect? Well, Liltotto for example, who before the distance calc was removed got her rating from dodging the Auswahlen, making her about 80% as fast as Auswahlen.

So approximately 8 times the speed of light for Liltotto and the other Sternritter girls. And this is just from assuming that True Shikai Ichigo's top speed is lightning speed...

You can't see why this is a little problematic?

This is why it would be way, way better in my view to just not bother with the distance calculation. It produces horrificly inflated results. No matter how you look at it, you end up with Liltotto being about 5403 times faster than True Shikai Ichigo's maximum speed.

The problem is solved if her speed scales to candice and her reaction speed scales to the auswhalen.

 

[AppleLord]

Assuming a random lower value, because the alternative is pure calc stacking, is not okay. It would also fall under this part of the Calc Stacking page:





Assuming Ichigo to be lightning speed, just like the character in the example being assumed to be Supersonic, just for the sake of another calc, is not allowed.

Who is assuming Ichigo is lightning speed? Are you planning to take away his lightning speed feats too?

 

[USklaverei]

Damage, it has already been proven that this is not calculation stacking, you are only forcing it because you know you cannot refute the thing except using the fallacy that this is stacking.

About the Auswahlen and Ichigo thing, it will continue to be something different in the same way Ichigo took 33300 seconds to cross and Mimihagi 3, that is, Mimihagi would be 11100x faster than Ichigo regardless of whether you have a calculation or not, the question is that you are literally IGNORING that Ichigo's combat speed is totally different from his travel speed, so much so that the same Ichigo reacted to Yhwach's attacks that crossed that distance at the same time as Mimihagi.

The thing here is that Damage wants to remove Renji's calc claiming to be an outlier and has nothing to support, also wanting to put aside the distance from the Reiokyu-Soul Society saying that this would produce outliers, there is no way to be more biased than that in order to demote a verse.