The Big Bleach Speed CRT: Part 2 - Post-Timeskip

[Damage3245]

This thread is the continuation of this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-big-bleach-speed-crt.108441/

We need to resolve a couple of bits of scaling for the Pre-Timeskip characters and then come to a decision on what the Post-Timeskip ratings should be from the earlier changes to Pre-Timeskip Bleach. I want to leave the current scaling as mostly intact as possible, even though I disagree with a few points, and there are some that by necessity will have to change.

The last thread got a bit unstructured from looking at multiple different feats and calcs so I will try to keep things more focused this time.

Sandboxes

Here is the sandbox for the Pre-Timeskip profiles and ratings.

Here is a version of the sandbox for Post-Timeskip profiles and ratings without the FTL calc.

Here is a version of the sandbox for Post-Timeskip profiles and ratings with the FTL calc.

Don't take any of these sandboxes are being finalized or settled. There are some parts that I need to fill out, and a lot we need to discuss for them.

Topics

1. Zommari Scaling
2. Tsukishima Scaling
3. Ichigo’s Post-Timeskip Calc
4. Sternritter Girls Scaling
5. Renji’s FTL Calc

The above is a rough order of topics that I think we need to cover. As each topic is settled we can move onto the next one.

The first topic we need to cover is what Zommari should scale to, since his rating is influential for several other characters and there was some disagreement about it in the previous thread. My viewpoint is that Zommari should scale to being at least as fast as any other Espada in base (in other words, at least as fast as Ulquiorra), and we give Zommari a "likely higher" rating after that. The reason for this is his statement of possessing the "fastest Sonido" out of the Espada, but we also don't have any comparison between Zommari and any of the Espada's in their released forms. He is, apart from his fight with Byakuya, essentially featless. And as a side-note, while his Sondio may be the fastest, that doesn't necessarily bump up his reactions/movement speed outside of Sonido so that's my reasoning for why the safest thing to do is to place him as being at least as fast as the other Espada in base.

In other words, my proposal for Zommari is: "At least Massively Hypersonic (Has the self-proclaimed fastest Sonido amongst the Espada, so he should be at least as fast as Ulquiorra), likely higher (Surprised Byakuya during their fight, forcing Byakuya to use a special technique to escape him)"

As for characters this impacts, it directly affects Byakuya and Kenpachi. Byakuya by virtue of fighting him, and managing to outspeed him at points, and Kenpachi for keeping up with Byakuya later on in the Yammy fight (though I'm not 100% sure about that, because it's not like Kenpachi and Byakuya were fighting each other).

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

My question is why is byakuya just "higher" when we know the increase is a 2x

 

[Damage3245]

The sandboxes aren't 100% up to date. Byakuya should be "At least Massively Hypersonic, Massively Hypersonic+ attack speed when controlling his Bankai".

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Also, I notice that the multiplier for kenpachi is not being used

The 7x

 

[Damage3245]

@TOAAPRESENCE1; that's something that'll need discussing. I don't think that was something that was accepted for his speed, or at least it's not currently on his profile anyway. I can add it in as a topic for discussion if you'd like.

 

[USklaverei]

I saw it now, my evil

Another thing, wouldn't it be better to solve the calculation of the distance of Reiokyu before the review of Post-Time Skip?

 

[Damage3245]

@USklaverei; I can add that in as a topic for discussion. But to be honest I have a whole separate thread planned out for distance calculations for Bleach.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I saw it now, my evil

Another thing, wouldn't it be better to solve the calculation of the distance of Reiokyu before the review of Post-Time Skip?

I thought we had the new one accepted already

 

[USklaverei]

Because after that, everything will be revised again, so I would think it would be better to solve this first.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Renji’s FTL Calc

What's wrong with this?

We should do the Reiokyu distance first because it does affect post-ts speed scaling a lot, I agree with Sklav there.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Because after that, everything will be revised again, so I would think it would be better to solve this first.

This makes perfect sense tbh.
If the distances changing will render the calcs currently being discussed useless in the near future, then it's probably wiser to discuss the distances first, no? Seems more efficient to me personally.

 

[Damage3245]

What's wrong with this?

We should do the Reiokyu distance first because it does affect post-ts speed scaling a lot, I agree with Sklav there.

I'll get to that when we reach that point in the thread.

@UchihaSlayer96; okay, but there some scaling points from the Pre-Timeskip we need to resolve first.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

okay, but there some scaling points from the Pre-

Oh yeah, getting scaling finalized makes sense as well. I was more so referring to calcs that the distance revisions may affect.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

As far as pre-ts goes, the question is: is fastest sonido faster than Res Ulq or just base Ulq right?

In which case I propose: at least [base Ulq's speed], possibly [Res Ulq's speed] (blah blah fastest sonido). However, if at least [base Ulq speed], likely higher is more reasonable sure go for it.

 

[Galvino]

So are we considering how Soi Fon and the other soul reapers dodging light from the soul society an outlier or something? The light that came down to get Aizen and his bois outta there.

 

[Damage3245]

So are we considering how Soi Fon and the other soul reapers dodging light from the soul society an outlier or something? The light that came down to get Aizen and his bois outta there.

This is not the thread for that topic - but yes, here on VS Battles we don't currently accept that Soi Fon and the others actually dodged lightspeed.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Damage3245 by “Ichigo Post-TS feat” are you referring to traveling from Reiokyu to Seireitei or finessing the femritters? Or both?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

If is the femritters then he should be faster than lightning, as her electrocution is stated to be superior to any lightning on nature

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; the finessing of the Femritters.

@TOAAPRESENCE1; my revised calc for Ichigo's feat does put him as faster than lightning. (Mach 4042 to be exact).

If we're okay to settle on "At least Massively Hypersonic, likely higher" for Zommari for now, I have a few issues with Tsukishima's scaling that I'd like to bring up.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

I'm following this

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Aight let’s hear the Tsukishima issue.

 

[SilentBob34]

There's also still the feat of Ichigo blitzing the quincy girls right after crashing into the clock tower

 

[AppleLord]

Tsukishima scales to Byakuya since he trained and got stronger from training Byakuya in the past thanks to book of the end. He should have two different keys.

I disagree on ”Oetsu could cut down Pre-Auswahlen Gerard so he is rated as 1.29c.”

Just been part of Zero Squad doesn't make Oh-Etsu scale to those speeds. Remember Kirinji? He got blitz by Renji or Ichigo when one of them punched his stomach. Post-Auswahlen Gerard scales to Renji but not Pre-Auswahlen Gerard who may scale above Liltotto light speed Auswahlen dodged feat. Depending on if that feat is accepted or not.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Tsukishima scales to byakuya using his 2 hands



Also how do we treat the captains and vice captains that did train during those 17 months? With a "higer"?

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Probably? Also it was Ichigo who blitzed Kirinji

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Probably? Also it was Ichigo who blitzed Kirinji

I dont think anyone blitz him or I don't remember well

They just harm him with their punch/resisted his punch

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I disagree on ”Oetsu could cut down Pre-Auswahlen Gerard so he is rated as 1.29c.”

Just been part of Zero Squad doesn't make Oh-Etsu scale to those speeds. Remember Kirinji? He got blitz by Renji or Ichigo when one of them punched his stomach.

Ichigo "blitzed" Kirinji, Renji never did. Oetsu isn't rated such for "being a part of Squad Zero" either. I wanna say there was a big ole discussion on Oetsu scaling way back when the "Part 3" revisions were taking place where it was agreed that Yhwach powering up his elite sternritter was just that, a power up, which is why we backscale their speed. Among the fact that they didn't display any increase in speed, just power iirc.

 

[Damage3245]

Part of the issue with Tsukishima is that we're currently scaling characters like Orihime and Chad to be twice as fast as Byakuya. I don't have a problem with characters increasing in speed over time, of course, but this kind of jump up requires a more critical view.

We also know for a fact that Tsukishima is faster than Chad and Orihime from how he is able to blitz them earlier in the arc, so something is up with them being rated on the same level as him. We'll get to that in a bit.

Here are the speed-relevant portions of the Byakuya vs. Tsukishima fight:

1) Tsukishima's opening swing against Byakuya is blocked by Byakuya's Shikai.

2) Tsukishima dodges an attack from Byakuya's Shikai.

3) We cut back to the scene and Tsukishima is roughed up from Byakuya's Shikai.

4) Tsukishima deflects an attack from Byakuya's Shikai and then dodges another one, appearing behind Byakuya and catching his arm.

- Tsukishima attributes this to having inserted himself into the past of Byakuya's sword and has seen Byakuya's techniques countless times before.

5) Tsukishima slashes Byakuya, cutting him. Byakuya quickly responds by slashing with his Shiaki but Tsukishima dodges.

- Tsukishima mentions that Byakuya hesitated after Tsukishima revealed the previous info, which is what gave Tsukishima his opening to cut Byakuya.

6) Tsukishima slashes at Byakuya. Byakuya dodges it, but his Shikai is cut in half.

7) Byakuya activates his Bankai. Tsukishima gets behind him but his slash is blocked by Byakuya's Bankai which enters the safe zone around his body - something Tsukishima never saw before from his training with Byakuya.

8) Tsukishima leaps back into combat as Byakuya begins controlling his Bankai with his hands - doubling its speed - and Tsukishima evades his attacks. Tsukishima throws off Byakuya's timing with his hand, forcing Byakuya to be hit by his own Bankai.

9) Tsukishima confidently states that he can handle any Kido Byakuya could throw at him, but Byakuya uses a surprise attack to a blow a hole through Tsukishima's chest with some of his Bankai's petals that he grabbed when he was hit by his own attack.

So that's a pretty thorough breakdown of their fight. We have several instances of Byakuya keeping up with Tsukishima's speed, several instances of Tsukishima keeping up with Byakuya's speed, one instance of Tsukishima keeping up with Byakuya's doubled Bankai speed, and one instance of Tsukishima being blitzed by Byakuya's doubled Bankai speed.

To give an analogy of what Tsukishima did for this fight, it is like he has been playing a video game countless times before attempting to speedrun it. Sure, it looks like he's easily handling Byakuya's attacks at times but that's not because he is significantly faster than Byakuya. It is because he has an extreme amount of experience in fighting Byakuya thanks to his ability. Tsukishima also says that his own skills have improved as a result of using his ability on Byakuya.

Because of all this, I don't think we should be rating Tsukishima as being equal to Byakuya's doubled Bankai speed. It would be more accurate to rate as being on par with Byakuya, with the reason why Byakuya struggles to hit him with his Bankai being Tsukishima's wealth of experience against Byakuya's fighting style. The moment Byakuya tries a couple of things that Tsukishima wasn't prepared for, Byakuya is able to negate Tsukishima's advantage and either blocks his attack, or pierces him through the chest.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I can agree with tsukishima being equal to double speed byakuya

 

[Damage3245]

@TOAAPRESENCE1; that's what we currently rate Tsukishima as. My suggestion is that we don't do that.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

The problem with that is that we see him dodging even when byakuya changes strategies tsukishima can still dodge

Knowing the enemies abilities or speed does not mean u can deal with it

Which is the case with tsukishima, he has been shown to be able to dodge byakuya attacks even the one by the hands

 

[Damage3245]

@TOAAPRESENCE1; that context of the fight is that Tsukishima isn't avoiding Byakuya's attacks because he has a stat advantage, but because he has an immeasurable amount of experience in fighting Byakuya.

Byakuya is also able to keep up with Tsukishima multiple times even without his doubled Bankai speed.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

@TOAAPRESENCE1; that context of the fight is that Tsukishima isn't avoiding Byakuya's attacks because he has a stat advantage, but because he has an immeasurable amount of experience in fighting Byakuya.

Byakuya is also able to keep up with Tsukishima multiple times even without his doubled Bankai speed.

Yes, and like I said above knowing an enemy has an attack or ability does not magically makes u faster or more durable

Tsukishima can know about bankai etc. He would still need the speed to keep up and dodge

Yes, same with tsukishima and this still remains true even when byakuya uses his 2 hands

 

[Damage3245]

@TOAAPRESENCE1; then we run into a scaling issue of Doubled Byakuya = Tsukishima = Byakuya. You're focusing too much on feat from Tsukishima and ignoring the fight as a whole.

Taking in every feat from both characters into consideration, there is more evidence that Tsukishima is on par with Byakuya than he is being double Byakuya's speed.

Don't forget that we also see Tsukishima being blitzed by Byakuya's Bankai in his hands, which is how he was defeated.

Yes, and like I said above knowing an enemy has an attack or ability does not magically makes u faster or more durable

We run into unrealistic things in fiction all the time. AOE Fallacy, Talking is a Free Action, etc. These are tropes that we just accept sometimes. I'm suggesting this be another one of those cases.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I don’t see how their scaling is an issue, this seems pretty forced and rather nitpicky. A 2x speed amp is nothing. If he can dodge it then it’s a feat and valid for scaling. As simple as that.

 

[Damage3245]

@Sigurd; this is the conclusion from the breakdown I did above:

We have several instances of Byakuya keeping up with Tsukishima's speed, several instances of Tsukishima keeping up with Byakuya's speed, one instance of Tsukishima keeping up with Byakuya's doubled Bankai speed, and one instance of Tsukishima being blitzed by Byakuya's doubled Bankai speed.

And you want to scale Tsukishima based only on this:

We have several instances of Byakuya keeping up with Tsukishima's speed, several instances of Tsukishima keeping up with Byakuya's speed, one instance of Tsukishima keeping up with Byakuya's doubled Bankai speed, and one instance of Tsukishima being blitzed by Byakuya's doubled Bankai speed.

I'd say that is a lot more nitpicky that taking the full fight into consideration.

EDIT: Regardless, even if we did accept this for Tsukishima, it should not apply to the version of Tsukishima that Fullbring Ichigo fought against.

 

[Makstar05]

I agree with Damage that we should not scale Tsukishima to doubled Byakuya.The instance of him keeping up with his doubled Bankai is when he uses it in a conventional way and he(Tsuki)has experienced that countless times already.Then when Byakuya grabs his petals and thrusts them at Tsuki he's unable to dodge,thats because Tsuki had never experienced this against Byakuya in the past.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

It’s a fight, a 2x amp is hardly anything. It doesn’t make Byakuya unbeatable. Tsukishima didn’t even care about the amp. Byakuya won via doing something he never done before catching Tsukishima off guard. The point is he still has to be fast enough.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I reread the whole fight just now and in no point was tsukishima struggling and he did dodge all byakuya attacks even the 2x speed attacks

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

He

I agree with Damage that we should not scale Tsukishima to doubled Byakuya.The instance of him keeping up with his doubled Bankai is when he uses it in a conventional way and he(Tsuki)has experienced that countless times already.Then when Byakuya grabs his petals and thrusts them at Tsuki he's unable to dodge,thats because Tsuki had never experienced this against Byakuya in the past.

also did not experience the blades entering the zone yet he dodged them