TG: Kakuja's multiplier

[NikHelton]

From frame 1? Sure.
From frame 2, 3, or 4? No.

2, 3, and 4 are already force multipliers.
You mistakenly believed that 3 and 4 frames are the base for quinx.

It's not plucked out of thin air it's literally YOUR premise.

Frames merely limit their kakuho as YOUR thread says.
Removing all the frames AKA removing the limits on their kakuho transforms them into a kakuja as YOUR thread says.

This means without the artificial restrictions of frames they'd be naturally kakujas.

No it doesn't.

It's all about the kakuhou's increased strength and the growth of RC cells, just like in regular ghouls.

You keep dodging the primary issue like your life depends on it. The 5x increase is FROM FRAME 1. Which is a reference point you set for literally no reason other than presumably to get the highest upgrade possible.

Because the 2nd frame already has a x2 multiplier. I don't understand why this needs to be explained.

None of this actually addresses any of the points I made.

If anything it supports what I'm saying. Different Ghouls have different thresholds to how many RC cells they can tolerate before becoming a kakuja. If they're 1% away from it then a 1.01x multiplier let's them become a kakuja, if they're 99% away then they need a 100x increase. There isn't a consistent multiplier because they're trying to reach an unknown personal threshold, not multiply their power.

If Joe Quinx is frame 1 he needs a 5x increase to become a kakuja.
If Urie is at frame 4 he only needs a 1.25x increase in RC cells to become a kakuja.
If Shirazu is frame 2 he needs a 2.5x increase to become a kakuja.

The "multiplier" changes because it's not actually a multiplier and instead it depends on how far you are from the threshold. If Urie was somehow given the ability to go frame 4.999999 which let him use 99% of his kakuho he'd only need a 1.01x increase.

The 4th frame is already a x4 multiplier, but this multiplier is still not enough to evolve Kakuja. A x5 multiplier is sufficient.

 

[DavidTPPM]

2, 3, and 4 are already force multipliers.
You mistakenly believed that 3 and 4 frames are the base for quinx.

No, I didn't. You're trying to mislead people into thinking frame 1 is the base for Quinx.

Frame 5 is the base. Every other frame level is an artificial nerf placed upon them to limit their power.
Because again frames don't increase their power by adding more RC cells. They remove a limitation placed upon them.

So the actual base for Quinx and any Ghoul is frame 5. But Quinxes are artificially restricted to lower levels.

It's all about the kakuhou's increased strength and the growth of RC cells, just like in regular ghouls.

For Quinxes it's not about kakuho's increased strength. It's about kakuho's UNRESTRICTED strength.

For non-kakuja GHOULS it's about increased strength.

Because the 2nd frame already has a x2 multiplier. I don't understand why this needs to be explained.

No, frame 2 has a 0.4x multiplier NERF to their base power.

Frame 1 nerfs to 0.2x.
Frame 2 nerfs to 0.4x
Frame 3 nerfs to 0.6x
Frame 4 nerfs them to 0.8x
And frame 5 releases their full power.

The 4th frame is already a x4 multiplier, but this multiplier is still not enough to evolve Kakuja. A x5 multiplier is sufficient.

You're wording it as if the 4th frame gave increased their power by 4x. But that's extremely misleading. Frame 4 lifts the limiters on their base power to allow them to use 80% of their power.

You're wording it like a temporary 4x power boost when in reality it's a permanent lift to a power nerf/limiter instead.


So for the last time. There isn't a "5x increase from a Ghouls base power and their kakuja". There is a 5x nerf to the base power of Quinx. And to become a kakuja you need to reach a certain RC cell threshold, not "multiply your base power by 5x".

 

[NikHelton]

No, I didn't. You're trying to mislead people into thinking frame 1 is the base for Quinx.

Frame 5 is the base. Every other frame level is an artificial nerf placed upon them to limit their power.
Because again frames don't increase their power by adding more RC cells. They remove a limitation placed upon them.

So the actual base for Quinx and any Ghoul is frame 5. But Quinxes are artificially restricted to lower levels.

For Quinxes it's not about kakuho's increased strength. It's about kakuho's UNRESTRICTED strength.

For non-kakuja GHOULS it's about increased strength.

No, frame 2 has a 0.4x multiplier NERF to their base power.

Frame 1 nerfs to 0.2x.
Frame 2 nerfs to 0.4x
Frame 3 nerfs to 0.6x
Frame 4 nerfs them to 0.8x
And frame 5 releases their full power.

You're wording it as if the 4th frame gave increased their power by 4x. But that's extremely misleading. Frame 4 lifts the limiters on their base power to allow them to use 80% of their power.

You're wording it like a temporary 4x power boost when in reality it's a permanent lift to a power nerf/limiter instead.


So for the last time. There isn't a "5x increase from a Ghouls base power and their kakuja". There is a 5x nerf to the base power of Quinx. And to become a kakuja you need to reach a certain RC cell threshold, not "multiply your base power by 5x".

The removal of the fourth frame isn't final. The Quinxes are easily switching between frames. And they only use the third frame for a few minutes.

 

[DavidTPPM]

The removal of the fourth frame isn't final. The Quinxes are easily switching between frames. And they only use the third frame for a few minutes.

Once again somehow ignoring all the important arguments and focusing on the least relevant part…

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

This really just comes off as miscommunication. Nik is arguing that the base is Frame 1, while David is arguing that it is Frame 5. However, I think there is evidence to support Nik more than David. I mean in the scene Nik shows Urie is talking about strengthing his kagune, not releasing more of it. We also see that the Doctor says the the procedure is based on the one Kaneki went through, so it isn't illogical or that far of a reach to say the operate simalirly.

 

[azontr]

The baseline operating level for Quinx's has always been F2, but a releasing of frames has never been an actual multiplier in the level of RC count in the Quinx itself. Quinx's are explicitly humans that have been limited by frames so that their RC count does not increase to the point of becoming ghouls; this is not an artificial increase of the RC count, it is simply allowing the kakuhou to release and process the latent RC cells within it that are already there. That is inherently how Quinx biology works. If this thread is based in the idea that releasing frames multiplies a Quinx's inherent RC count, then the thread is objectively incorrect. Urie strengthening his kagune just means he's unleashing more of its latent potential.

Urie also isn't becoming a Kakuja. A Kakuja is a specific mutation caused by cannibalizing ghoul flesh, which Urie has never done. Just because he has a mask like formation around his face does not mean he is turning into a kakuja. His kagune is just changing shape.

 

[azontr]

This really just comes off as miscommunication. Nik is arguing that the base is Frame 1, while David is arguing that it is Frame 5. However, I think there is evidence to support Nik more than David. I mean in the scene Nik shows Urie is talking about strengthing his kagune, not releasing more of it. We also see that the Doctor says the the procedure is based on the one Kaneki went through, so it isn't illogical or that far of a reach to say the operate simalirly.

It strengthens Urie's kagune by releasing more of it. Use your context clues. The quinx procedure is based on the half-ghoul transplantation procedure because they both involve transplanting a kakuhou, but the quinx procedure is explicitly different because the frames are there to prevent the one receiving the transplant from turning into a ghoul.

 

[Arkenis]

Disagree. I don't see the page for calling it a 5x increase to strength or anything else. It just talks about operation of the kakuho having 5 levels to observe the rate of rc cells I assume.

 

[DarthSorox]

Disagree. I don't see the page for calling it a 5x increase to strength or anything else. It just talks about operation of the kakuho having 5 levels to observe the rate of rc cells I assume.

That's exactly what this thread is for

 

[DarthSorox]

Fair. Guess that works

So, we have two moderator approvals. I think we can close the thread and move on.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

There is still a 48-hour grace period.

I still see a problem with the assumption that all Quinx getting 5x

especially when the default is being in frame 2 with a short frame 3 timeframe

azontr also seems to added extra context in regards to RC cells

 

[Arkenis]

That's exactly what this thread is for

Where is the statement the frames are a multiplier? I didn't see that.

 

[Arkenis]

There is still a 48-hour grace period.

I still see a problem with the assumption that all Quinx getting 5x

especially when the default is being in frame 2 with a short frame 3 timeframe

azontr also seems to added extra context in regards to RC cells

It's clear more discussion can be had here, the supporters haven't proven much here at least 3 people disagree, this would also effect several characters. Could you ask to remove your vote until you're convinced more?

 

[DavidTPPM]

We also see that the Doctor says the the procedure is based on the one Kaneki went through, so it isn't illogical or that far of a reach to say the operate simalirly.

Since Azontr address the first part of this reply already I'll just note that again this is just misleading.
Yes it's based on what Kaneki went through because Kaneki had a kakuho transplanted. Not because of anything kakuja related. Kaneki never had any frames and became a kakuja as a result of cannibalism.


Kaneki always had access to his full kakuho and never went through any transformations or madness as a result. To become a kakuja he needed to cannibalize other Ghouls.
Quinx start off with only access to 20% of their kakuho and if they used more they can experience madness. And to become a kakuja (assuming the transformation Urie showed is a kakuja) they simply need to release their full kakuhos.

So the only part that's similar to Kaneki's is the least relevant part that has nothing to do with the 5x increase

 

[M2u12]

This really just comes off as miscommunication. Nik is arguing that the base is Frame 1, while David is arguing that it is Frame 5. However, I think there is evidence to support Nik more than David.

Nik didn't refute David's counterarguments, so saying that Nik has more supporting evidence isn't correct at all.

I mean in the scene Nik shows Urie is talking about strengthing his kagune, not releasing more of it.

Just like azontr said, Urie strengthens his kagune by releasing restrictions.

For example, if you take off a weighted suit, it should allow you to lift more, not because your strength increased, but because you're no longer restricted.

We also see that the Doctor says the the procedure is based on the one Kaneki went through, so it isn't illogical or that far of a reach to say the operate simalirly.

Well, if you put it that way, Kaneki had a "Innate Kakuja" right from the start, so it isn't illogical or that far of a reach to say the Quinx base is somewhat a Kakuja as well

+ actually kind of makes sense that the Quinx base is a Kakuja with its power restricted, since doing so would still make a regular kagune stronger since its foundation is a Kakuja.

(Assuming that premise was correct in the first place )

 

[NikHelton]

It's clear more discussion can be had here, the supporters haven't proven much here at least 3 people disagree, this would also effect several characters. Could you ask to remove your vote until you're convinced more?

Three people disagree and five agree. 4 to 8, just by looking at the votes.

What kind of rightness are we talking about? You haven't convinced me, Foriaa, Sorox, Mikazzzuchi, or LegendariumOfLies. I don't think even if this thread stretched to 10 pages, your opinion wouldn't change.

My job is to state my position. The moderators have accepted it. Eight people agreed. That's enough.