Tokyo Ghoul Kakuja Multiplier

[NikHelton]

In this thread I wanted to give a qualitative assessment of such a phenomenon in Tokyo Ghoul as kakuja.

Kakuja is a congenital or acquired through cannibalism mutation of RC cells and kagune, obtained as a result of an increased concentration of RC cells in the body.

RC-cells are fuel for ghouls and a source for the formation of their kagune. The RС-factor is a measure for the amount of RC-cells in the body of a living being. Ghouls have an "Rc factor" ten times higher than humans, which explains the difference in their strength (200-500 in humans and 1000-8000 in ghouls). The number of RC cells and the tubes along which they rush through the body directly affects the physical capabilities of ghouls and half-ghouls. Therefore, the more RC cells, the stronger the ghoul.


There is no indication in the manga for increasing the concentration of RC-cells, but the concentration increase coefficient should at least exceed the spontaneous jumps of Amon's RC cells, which fluctuated from 970 to 10181 at the time of his gulification and which Dr. Kano recognized as a failed experiment.
Moreover, Kano directly noted that increasing the concentration of RC-cells in such a volume was still not enough to transition to the kakuja state.

10181/970 = 10.495 times (rounded up to 10.5)

While the kakuja is a full-fledged armor and a newly developed kagune, when used, the user retains sanity, the half-kakuja often only partially covers the body and forms a mask on the user's face. The half-kakuja, due to its incompleteness, should give half the result.

Thus, the kakuja significantly increases such indicators as AP, durability and LS, and in some cases - speed.

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus, @DarthSorox, @LegendariumOfLies, @Foriaa, @NikHelton, @M2u12, @Mikazzzuchi, @MintyBoi1 (1:7)

Disagree: @Vietthai96, @Tony_di_bugalu, @MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden, @MrTayman616, @StekFence (1:4)

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

While this is nice for thought I don't think it would qualify as a set value of power for the Kakuja. Becoming 5 or 10 times stronger is just too big of a jump in power without solid feats, moreover it would break the scaling and inflate the tiers.

For the moment Kakuja should stay where it is, as an unquantifiable amplification of power imo

 

[NikHelton]

While this is nice for thought I don't think it would qualify as a set value of power for the Kakuja. Becoming 5 or 10 times stronger is just too big of a jump in power without solid feats, moreover it would break the scaling and inflate the tiers.

For the moment Kakuja should stay where it is, as an unquantifiable amplification of power imo

We have a number of examples of oneshot opponents in the kakuja state (Kaneki oneshotted Arata twice, Takizawa eventually oneshot Amon, Uta completely ignoring Yomo's attacks, Kaneki out-oneshotting Arata's Joker giving a blitz amp, Kaneki oneshotting Furuta's kagune)

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Since me and Nik have talked about it before, I naturually agree.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

We have a number of examples of oneshot opponents in the kakuja state (Kaneki oneshotted Arata twice, Takizawa eventually oneshot Amon, Uta completely ignoring Yomo's attacks, Kaneki out-oneshotting Arata's Joker giving a blitz amp, Kaneki oneshotting Furuta's kagune)

One-shots don't mean much beyond the whole "Y is so strong he can one tap X"

BTW the value the wiki uses (7.5) is not a universal thing, not even close, so you can't use it as an example. Fiction, being fiction, can have cases of someone being twice as strong as their opponent and still being able to one-shot them. Not to mention real life...

Personally, I don't agree but if you got enough feats it could work.

 

[NikHelton]

One-shots don't mean much beyond the whole "Y is so strong he can one tap X"

BTW the value the wiki uses (7.5) is not a universal thing, not even close, so you can't use it as an example. Fiction, being fiction, can have cases of someone being twice as strong as their opponent and still being able to one-shot them. Not to mention real life...

Personally, I don't agree but if you got enough feats it could work.

In any case, this is backed up by both the feats and the numerical equivalent of RC cells and data provided by the manga's main scientist/author

 

[DarthSorox]

We regularly see kakuja increasing power, AP, and durability, so the multiplier should work. However, speed doesn't always increase, so I agree that the multiplier shouldn't affect it.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

While this is nice for thought I don't think it would qualify as a set value of power for the Kakuja. Becoming 5 or 10 times stronger is just too big of a jump in power without solid feats, moreover it would break the scaling and inflate the tiers.

Argument from Incredulity. Just because something sounds unbelievable doesn't mean it isn't true, especially since Nik has provided evidence proving otherwise.

For the moment Kakuja should stay where it is, as an unquantifiable amplification of power imo

Why? Especially, since we now have proof of a solid number.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Argument from Incredulity. Just because something sounds unbelievable doesn't mean it isn't true, especially since Nik has provided evidence proving otherwise.

How? I literally said its too big of a jump in power without feats that could justify it. You are literally claiming

Why? Especially, since we now have proof of a solid number.

RC-Cells number increasing isn't the same as a solid power multiplier like SSJ

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

How? I literally said its too big of a jump in power without feats that could justify it.

You don' t need feats for multipliers. This isn't an argument.

You are literally claiming RC-Cells number increasing isn't the same as a solid power multiplier like SSJ

RC-Cells are explicitly tied to ones power in-verse. Higher RC Count means more power.

 

[NikHelton]

You don' t need feats for multipliers. This isn't an argument.

In fact, it really is necessary for this multiplier to look reasonable, and not like... you know what I'm talking about

However, there are enough examples in the manga where kakuja gives the opportunity for blitz and oneshot, so coupled with the numerical equivalent, this multiplier looks reasonable

RC-Cells are explicitly tied to ones power in-verse. Higher RC Count means more power.

Oh, it's good

 

[Foriaa]

Seems clear, I agree.

 

[NikHelton]

Bump

 

[M2u12]

I wish I could finish reading RE before comment on this, but there's something I want to point out.

Big jump in power when using kakuja on some sort is pretty consistent. (at least in part 1 of the series)

the best example i can think off in part 1 is Round 2 of Kaneki vs Amon fight.

where as first Kaneki low-diff Amon before Amon equip Arata (basically kakuja armor) and after that Amon blitz and absolutely over power Kaneki after equiping it, which force Kaneki to release his own kakuja and manage to cut off Amon arm.

So IDK if the reason in OP is enough or meets the criteria for the multiplier in vsbw or not, but if RE continue this Big jump in power consistently then "It's too much of big jump in power, so it's unusable" argument should not be used.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What is the brief summary of proposals.

 

[NikHelton]

What is the brief summary of proposals.

We have a universal source of power and confirmation of its effect on physical strength.
We have a kakuja multiplier, which gives the ability to blitz and oneshot opponents.
We have a quantitative estimate of the increase in internal energy, which is minimal for this multiplier.

Thus, we found the value of this multiplier for stats amp

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

Don't multipliers need to be explicitly stated in the story with no room for contention in order to use them.

Tbw, where is the multiplier you want to be accepted?

Unless it's the 10.5x one, but i don't see any evidence that makes it so a 10.5x increase in rc cells corresponds to a 10.5x increase in physical stats?

This crt is so confusing.

 

[NikHelton]

Don't multipliers need to be explicitly stated in the story with no room for contention in order to use them.

Tbw, where is the multiplier you want to be accepted?

Unless it's the 10.5x one, but i don't see any evidence that makes it so a 10.5x increase in rc cells corresponds to a 10.5x increase in physical stats?

This crt is so confusing.

Yes, we are talking about 10.5.

Kakuja is constantly shown as a booster capable of turning the tide of battle and oneshotting those who oppressed you earlier.

No need to be confusing, my friend.

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

Kakuja is constantly shown as a booster capable of turning the tide of battle and oneshotting those who oppressed you earlier.

In what way could they "one shot" their opponent, stabbing them for instance doesn't exacty count for much when it comes to helping your argument, but the point still stands that there is no evidence to suggest a 10.5x increase in rc cells corresponds to a 10.5x increase in physical stats, i get where you're coming from but your premises don't support the conclusion given it's numerical form that requires accuracy more than anything else, the crt does a good job pointing out supporting premises but the relationship between a higher RC-factor and stronger ghouls isn’t quantified.

The scaling law isn't really established in the series, all we know is that a higher RC cell count corresponds to higher physical stats but we don't know if the scale is linear, logarithmic or threshold-based.

You can't really determine a proper multiplier from this.

​

 

[Mikazzzuchi]

Considering how we are shown the difference between the basic form of a ghoul and a kakuja, and the internal biology of a ghoul, this makes sense.
In turn, the multiplier of 10.5 is confirmed by direct figures from the manga and simple calculations.

 

[NikHelton]

What is the brief summary of proposals.

What are you think?
And can you tag @FinePoint, @Theglassman12, @Dereck03, @Reiner04, @Dalesean027 , please?

 

[NikHelton]

Bump

 

[NikHelton]

What is the brief summary of proposals.

@FinePoint, @Theglassman12, @Dereck03, @Reiner04, @Dalesean027 , please?

@DarkDragonMedeus, can you tag somebody, please?

 

[MrTayman616]

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.

There is no statement or even power level showcase here. I don't think "The RС-factor" alone is enough here. (If a human has 0 RC-Factor, do they die? or they don't have any physical ability?)

I currently disagree with the thread.

 

[NikHelton]

There is no statement or even power level showcase here. I don't think "The RС-factor" alone is enough here. (If a human has 0 RC-Factor, do they die? or they don't have any physical ability?)

I currently disagree with the thread.

A human does not have a kakuhou to use these cells to increase strength, so they are useless for humans.

The guy above already gave examples of increasing power. Even an incomplete kakuja was enough to oneshot and blitz an opponent who is stronger than you

 

[NikHelton]

A human does not have a kakuhou to use these cells to increase strength, so they are useless for humans.

The guy above already gave examples of increasing power. Even an incomplete kakuja was enough to oneshot and blitz an opponent who is stronger than you

Also Fly and I provided scans that say physical strength depends on RC cells

 

[MrTayman616]

The guy above already gave examples of increasing power.

Showing that it increases power alone isn't enough. Nor even power level itself.

Like power level 100 would be stronger than a power level 50 but that doesn't mean 2x difference between them.

Even an incomplete kakuja was enough to oneshot and blitz an opponent who is stronger than you

So it would get "higher" or "far higher" in the ratings. But nothing more as long as it's not specifically stated.

 

[NikHelton]

Showing that it increases power alone isn't enough. Nor even power level itself.

Like power level 100 would be stronger than a power level 50 but that doesn't mean 2x difference between them.

So it would get "higher" or "far higher" in the ratings. But nothing more as long as it's not specifically stated.

We have

1) Demonstration of growth of power large enough to oneshot the enemy
2) Energy source, its connection with physical strength and designations of the numerical equivalent.
3) If we are talking about numbers, then RC cell suppressors reduce the physical abilities of a ghoul to the level of a human, when we have statements that the strength of a ghoul exceeds the strength of a human by 7 times. That is, blocking the energy source and reducing the concentration of cells in the body can weaken by 7 times, so a 10-fold increase with an increase in concentration makes sense

 

[MrTayman616]

1) Demonstration of growth of power large enough to oneshot the enemy

It just makes it logical to be the case, but it isn't a statement.

2) Energy source, its connection with physical strength and designations of the numerical equivalent.

3) If we are talking about numbers, then RC cell suppressors reduce the physical abilities of a ghoul to the level of a human, when we have statements that the strength of a ghoul exceeds the strength of a human by 7 times. That is, blocking the energy source and reducing the concentration of cells in the body can weaken by 7 times, so a 10-fold increase with an increase in concentration makes sense

The point isn't about it making sense, i also believe it makes sense, i even expect the value to be way higher than that based on the feats. But it does lack the statement for a multiplier.

For example, if there were any kind of statement that shows the difference between someone with 100 RC and 200RC like "His RE is twice as much as yours.- So he's two times stronger than me? (i know lame example)" it'd be fine. But right now all i see is proof for making someone massively stronger while not actually giving proof a multiplier itself.

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.

 

[NikHelton]

It just makes it logical to be the case, but it isn't a statement.


The point isn't about it making sense, i also believe it makes sense, i even expect the value to be way higher than that based on the feats. But it does lack the statement for a multiplier.

For example, if there were any kind of statement that shows the difference between someone with 100 RC and 200RC like "His RE is twice as much as yours.- So he's two times stronger than me? (i know lame example)" it'd be fine. But right now all i see is proof for making someone massively stronger while not actually giving proof a multiplier itself.

This is why I made CRT and not just changed the multipliers. I need this idea to be either confirmed or rejected.
Many of the verse supporters have already agreed with the arguments. Some are skeptical, but acknowledge the huge power growth factor.
Even you have acknowledged that it could be much more. In that case, with logical arguments and demonstration of power growth, I see no reason why it can't work when it's a safe statement based on manga data.

If we talk about the difference in Rc-factor of the average human and the average ghoul is in the same range as the difference between their power

 

[MrTayman616]

Even you have acknowledged that it could be much more. In that case, with logical arguments and demonstration of power growth, I see no reason why it can't work when it's a safe statement based on manga data.

Because while it's safe to say there is a massive difference in strength between them, that just gives you "higher" or "far higher".

"Multipliers" are strict when it comes to these situations. I don't see any good evidence for it to be accepted as one here.

 

[NikHelton]

Because while it's safe to say there is a massive difference in strength between them, that just gives you "higher" or "far higher".

"Multipliers" are strict when it comes to these situations. I don't see any good evidence for it to be accepted as one here.

Counted

 

[StekFence]

Just because the power source has increased by such and such amount, doesn’t mean its effects have. This is just generally true irl, and it’s entirely possibly their strength has increased by 4x, or 20x, or any other number. Because of that, I don’t think it would be possible to slap a concrete number on the strength increase. I also disagree.

 

[Arkenis]

Do we have examples of characters, beside Kaneki, with thousands more rc cells displaying the increase putting them in a higher tier or having higher calced feats?
As an example, do we have: Ghoul A has 2000rc cells and is Tier 8-A at 300 tons and Ghoul B has 9000rc cells and has a feat close to 1350 tons?
If so, then that would show the increase clear as day.

 

[StekFence]

But it doesn’t quantify what the boost actually is, which is the issue. Nobodies denying that there is a boost at all.

 

[Arkenis]

But it doesn’t quantify what the boost actually is, which is the issue. Nobodies denying that there is a boost at all.

Huh? Like speed or ap?

 

[MrTayman616]

Do we have examples of characters, beside Kaneki, with thousands more rc cells displaying the increase putting them in a higher tier or having higher calced feats?
As an example, do we have: Ghoul A has 2000rc cells and is Tier 8-A at 300 tons and Ghoul B has 9000rc cells and has a feat close to 1350 tons?
If so, then that would show the increase clear as day.

Calc based values doesn't support it like that.

 

[Arkenis]

Calc based values doesn't support it like that.

Calcs support scaling. There's no difference with using them to demonstrate a multiplier is real in the verse through evidence already supporting the multiplier.

 

[StekFence]

Huh? Like speed or ap?

I mean that you wouldn’t be able to find an actual number representing to what degree stats increase. It’s incredibly common for someone who’s inverse 20x stronger (just a random example) to have feats that are 400x better, or any other gap. This is because calcs aren’t written into the story usually and so will naturally differ from what is presented very often.

 

[Arkenis]

I mean that you wouldn’t be able to find an actual number representing to what degree stats increase. It’s incredibly common for someone who’s inverse 20x stronger (just a random example) to have feats that are 400x better, or any other gap. This is because calcs aren’t written into the story usually and so will naturally differ from what is presented very often.

Well that's why I'm saying their feats would demonstrate the multiplier? As an example if we used the multiplier he's gotten but a character is tiers above by 50x instead of 10x then it wouldn't be consistent with the multiplier.