TenSura LN Major Revision - Monotheistic God (Atempt 2)

[Astral_Trinity439]

Introduction​

Hello everyone, hope ya'll are doing well. As ya'll know, Volume 22 is out, introducing to us some new information, as well as solidifying previously mentioned statements that were initially considered vague. And if you've already read the title, you probably know what this CRT is gonna be about. But to elaborate anyways (cuz I like yapping), its a re-attempt to decide God's tier, the "Supreme being" of the Slime verse.
As always, pleas refrain from showcasing any toxic behavior or derailing the thread!

Table of Content​

So, here are the proposals:

Astral Trinity439/Ethereal

vsbattles.fandom.com

And for those who can't get to fandom (for whatever reason it may be so) or are just lazy, here are the main points:

Spoiler: The Ethereal

All-In-One and One-In-All: God is the Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient, All-Encompassing, All-In-One and One-In-All (Where All was One and One was All) outside which no thing or piece exists (Not a missing piece to it), that which lacks absolutely nothing.

Source and End of All Existence: God is the source of All Existence, the first in the Infinite Chain of Reason, and also its ultimate End.

Nirvana: God is the unconditioned and unrestrained state of Nirvana unbound by any limitation, the Promised Land, to which all is but a mere story, the Ethereal and All-Encompassing to which all illusions return to.

Removal of Qualities: God cannot be reached simply by stacking power into a unity. Rather, as it is the lack of them, it can only be reached when one's Consciousness/Ego vanishes thus returns to the All-Encompassing Completeness. Said Ego is the preposition on which a thing determines itself as existing, the I THINK, THEREFORE I AM.

Acausal: The Cycle of Cause and Effect was self-inflicted by Veldanava on himself, as his original form was not bound to such things, so much so that even to experience change, it manifested as an Avatar, as Veldanava.

Holy Spirit: God is the Holy Spirit.

Avatars: Ramiris is another Avatar of God

Summary:
God is shown as the lack of all Qualities that is also superior to Qualities in all ways, while being beyond Cause and Effect.
Ivarage (profile does not exist yet), Veldanava and Ramiris are avatars of God. The first two are practically already known (and Veldanava's case has been discussed about in the previous tier 0 thread).
For Ramiris, she is the one who bestows the Blessings of the Great Holy Spirit and is a "Guide to the Holy One", in other words, an avatar that grants beings the blessing of the Great Holy Spirit.

TL;DR?
I want to say Tier 0, but I'm not in a hurry this time, so a minimum of High 1-A is what I propose. Meanwhile, if the staff (Ultima and the other experts) see this as fitting enough for Tier 0 or any tier higher than High 1-A, and gets accepted, that is completely fine with me as well either way.
Although I did talk to @Ultima_Reality on it on discord, and seeing the description [although unsure if they read the scans], they said its fine for Tier 0. Regardless, opinions can change, so you can take that with grain of salt.

Reason for minimum High 1-A:

• God naturally encompasses the entire cosmology in its indivisible wholeness.
• The cosmology includes dualities like Reality and Fiction, Truth and False, Substance and illusion, etc. Aka, the difference between those two things is qualitative, and God lacks this distinction via encompassing both.
• Additionally, although not a direct reason for High 1-A, it would also encompass the Great Spirits that Veldanava created. Great Spirits are type 1 concepts, including the great spirit of space/sky and time. Thus, God also encompasses all of space and time.

Notes
For everyone participating in this thread, please note that various arguments were already answered in the previous thread on this topic. Thus, I hope this thread won't just be a repeat of its predecessor.

Counter-Arguments
This part will be answering various counter-arguments, including those against Tier 0, and those against High 1-A or even 1-A. To avoid confusion, I will place a mark [T0, H1-A, 1-A] at the start of each argument to clarify which tier the argument is against. With that said, let's get to answering:

Spoiler: Counters

• T0: Veldanava gave up his omniscience and omnipotence, but a Tier 0 cannot become a Non-Tier 0, wouldn't that be a contradiction?

Answer : Not at all, since Veldanava itself was the means that God used to give up his omnipotence, that is, creating an Avatar. Proof of which is that the All-Encompassing Completeness still exists. Even more so is the fact that Veldanava was willed into existence and was born/created, and the fact that the form of all True Dragons we see, such as Veldora, Velzard, etc., are just avatars of their True Form. The same applies to Veldanava, the only difference is that his True Form is a bit more special.

• T0: But Veldanava describe his True Form, doesn't that mean he could comprehend it even though Veldanava himself is not Tier 0?

Answer : Again, not at all, since Veldanava being inherently aware of his True Form does not mean he can comprehend it. Even normal True Dragons are inherently aware of their True Form, inasmuch as Veldora describing his True Form, but that does not, by any means, imply that he can comprehend his True Form. Even more so, if its in that sense, even we can describe God, such as in Negative or Positive Theology, inasmuch as calling him by a name, God, or describing him by a term, such as The Omnipotent, The All-Encompassing, does that mean we are reducing the Ineffability of God and can understand him? Not at all, by any means, No.

• T0: As per what Ultima said here, it just seems this "entity" is akin to the unity of all qualities (one-being/essence itself), but not quite transcendent over them.

Answer: Not at all. Refer to the "Removal of Qualities" and "Nirvana" section for context. Additionally, compared to it, everything is an illusion that is ultimately reduced to itself, thus showing its superiority over everything. And as shown with Michael, one reunites with God when one is erased down to their ego and everything else [Ego is the most fundamental aspect of a being in-verse]

• T0: As per what Ultima said here as well, God is not Tier 0 as One-ness alone does not qualify for such a tier; Tier 0 lacks the distinction between "one" and "many".

Answer: God isn't just some One-ness [All-in-one], but rather both All-in-one and one-in-all. That is, it lacks the distinction between even one-ness and many-ness by being both.

• T0: Ivarage and Veldanava are seemingly described as "one-half of each other, God as a whole", which is an anti-feat as a Tier 0 is indivisible and cannot be divided in parts.

Answer: Read the "God's Existence" point in the sandbox for an answer to this. Additionally, read the "Acausal" point in the main argument, which also answers this. Ivarage and Veldanava are both avatar of God, not God itself "divided into two parts".

• High 1-A and 1-A: What suggests that God encompasses both Reality and Fiction, or simply, both qualitatively distinct layers, when never directly stated to do so?

Answer: God is "All-Encompassing", The term itself is self-sufficient when not used as a metaphor [such as "love is all-encompassing". In this case, it is not, and is rather used in context to a Monadic being. In addition to that, it is also stated that there is no "thing" or "piece" missing for God, or that God does not lack "anything". That goes to say what kind of "All-encompassing nature" it has; It is so all-encompassing that nothing exists outside of it.

Note: More counter-arguments will be added over-time as the thread progresses.

Votes​

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

____________________________________________________________________________________________
That was all. Hope ya'll enjoyed reading!

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Agree
I want to see tier 0 tho

 

[Tempestdragon6]

agree

 

[Velvian_can]

Read it in advance, good enough. Agree
It surpassed my expectations imma be honest

 

[Incomprehensibleexistence]

Agree

 

[Verlice_tempest]

Agree, tho it's self evident T0

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Introduction​

Hello everyone, hope ya'll are doing well. As ya'll know, Volume 22 is out, introducing to us some new information, as well as solidifying previously mentioned statements that were initially considered vague. And if you've already read the title, you probably know what this CRT is gonna be about. But to elaborate anyways (cuz I like yapping), its a re-attempt to decide God's tier, the "Supreme being" of the Slime verse.
As always, pleas refrain from showcasing any toxic behavior or derailing the thread!

Table of Content​

So, here are the proposals:

Astral Trinity439/Ethereal

vsbattles.fandom.com

And for those who can't get to fandom (for whatever reason it may be so) or are just lazy, here are the main points:

Spoiler: The Ethereal

All-In-One and One-In-All: God is the Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient, All-Encompassing, All-In-One and One-In-All (Where All was One and One was All) outside which no thing or piece exists (Not a missing piece to it), that which lacks absolutely nothing.

Source and End of All Existence: God is the source of All Existence, the first in the Infinite Chain of Reason, and also its ultimate End.

Nirvana: God is the unconditioned and unrestrained state of Nirvana unbound by any limitation, the Promised Land, to which all is but a mere story, the Ethereal and All-Encompassing to which all illusions return to.

Removal of Qualities: God cannot be reached simply by stacking power into a unity. Rather, as it is the lack of them, it can only be reached when one's Consciousness/Ego vanishes thus returns to the All-Encompassing Completeness. Said Ego is the preposition on which a thing determines itself as existing, the I THINK, THEREFORE I AM.

Acausal: The Cycle of Cause and Effect was self-inflicted by Veldanava on himself, as his original form was not bound to such things, so much so that even to experience change, it manifested as an Avatar, as Veldanava.

Holy Spirit: God is the Holy Spirit.

Avatars: Ramiris is another Avatar of God

Summary:
God is shown as the lack of all Qualities that is also superior to Qualities in all ways, while being beyond Cause and Effect.
Ivarage (profile does not exist yet), Veldanava and Ramiris are avatars of God. The first two are practically already known (and Veldanava's case has been discussed about in the previous tier 0 thread).
For Ramiris, she is the one who bestows the Blessings of the Great Holy Spirit and is a "Guide to the Holy One", in other words, an avatar that grants beings the blessing of the Great Holy Spirit.

TL;DR?
I want to say Tier 0, but I'm not in a hurry this time, so a minimum of High 1-A is what I propose. Meanwhile, if the staff (Ultima and the other experts) see this as fitting enough for Tier 0 or any tier higher than High 1-A, and gets accepted, that is completely fine with me as well either way.
Although I did talk to @Ultima_Reality on it on discord, and seeing the description [although unsure if they read the scans], they said its fine for Tier 0. Regardless, opinions can change, so you can take that with grain of salt.

Reason for minimum High 1-A:

• God naturally encompasses the entire cosmology in its indivisible wholeness.
• The cosmology includes dualities like Reality and Fiction, Truth and False, Substance and illusion, etc. Aka, the difference between those two things is qualitative, and God lacks this distinction via encompassing both.
• Additionally, although not a direct reason for High 1-A, it would also encompass the Great Spirits that Veldanava created. Great Spirits are type 1 concepts, including the great spirit of space/sky and time. Thus, God also encompasses all of space and time.

Notes
For everyone participating in this thread, please note that various arguments were already answered in the previous thread on this topic. Thus, I hope this thread won't just be a repeat of its predecessor.

Counter-Arguments
This part will be answering various counter-arguments, including those against Tier 0, and those against High 1-A or even 1-A. To avoid confusion, I will place a mark [T0, H1-A, 1-A] at the start of each argument to clarify which tier the argument is against. With that said, let's get to answering:

Spoiler: Counters

• T0: Veldanava gave up his omniscience and omnipotence, but a Tier 0 cannot become a Non-Tier 0, wouldn't that be a contradiction?

Answer : Not at all, since Veldanava itself was the means that God used to give up his omnipotence, that is, creating an Avatar. Proof of which is that the All-Encompassing Completeness still exists. Even more so is the fact that Veldanava was willed into existence and was born/created, and the fact that the form of all True Dragons we see, such as Veldora, Velzard, etc., are just avatars of their True Form. The same applies to Veldanava, the only difference is that his True Form is a bit more special.

• T0: But Veldanava describe his True Form, doesn't that mean he could comprehend it even though Veldanava himself is not Tier 0?

Answer : Again, not at all, since Veldanava being inherently aware of his True Form does not mean he can comprehend it. Even normal True Dragons are inherently aware of their True Form, inasmuch as Veldora describing his True Form, but that does not, by any means, imply that he can comprehend his True Form. Even more so, if its in that sense, even we can describe God, such as in Negative or Positive Theology, inasmuch as calling him by a name, God, or describing him by a term, such as The Omnipotent, The All-Encompassing, does that mean we are reducing the Ineffability of God and can understand him? Not at all, by any means, No.

• T0: As per what Ultima said here, it just seems this "entity" is akin to the unity of all qualities (one-being/essence itself), but not quite transcendent over them.

Answer: Not at all. Refer to the "Removal of Qualities" and "Nirvana" section for context. Additionally, compared to it, everything is an illusion that is ultimately reduced to itself, thus showing its superiority over everything. And as shown with Michael, one reunites with God when one is erased down to their ego and everything else [Ego is the most fundamental aspect of a being in-verse]

• T0: As per what Ultima said here as well, God is not Tier 0 as One-ness alone does not qualify for such a tier; Tier 0 lacks the distinction between "one" and "many".

Answer: God isn't just some One-ness [All-in-one], but rather both All-in-one and one-in-all. That is, it lacks the distinction between even one-ness and many-ness by being both.

• T0: Ivarage and Veldanava are seemingly described as "one-half of each other, God as a whole", which is an anti-feat as a Tier 0 is indivisible and cannot be divided in parts.

Answer: Read the "God's Existence" point in the sandbox for an answer to this. Additionally, read the "Acausal" point in the main argument, which also answers this. Ivarage and Veldanava are both avatar of God, not God itself "divided into two parts".

• High 1-A and 1-A: What suggests that God encompasses both Reality and Fiction, or simply, both qualitatively distinct layers, when never directly stated to do so?

Answer: God is "All-Encompassing", The term itself is self-sufficient when not used as a metaphor [such as "love is all-encompassing". In this case, it is not, and is rather used in context to a Monadic being. In addition to that, it is also stated that there is no "thing" or "piece" missing for God, or that God does not lack "anything". That goes to say what kind of "All-encompassing nature" it has; It is so all-encompassing that nothing exists outside of it.

Note: More counter-arguments will be added over-time as the thread progresses.

Votes​

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

____________________________________________________________________________________________
That was all. Hope ya'll enjoyed reading!

Will check this later.

For reference: I haven't seen the scans. So what I said was fine as Tier 0 on Discord was like, your interpretation of what they say, I guess. (Before I promptly forgot about this)

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

I agree

 

[Gasfo]

I am neutral on this,
using trinity for tier-0 is kinda wild

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Agree. (Hurry up and add scans for true dragons so they can get 1-A or high 1-A if tier 0 is accepted ) also if this is accepted,does that mean type 1 concepts are also accepted?) ultima is going to disappear again so you better hurry and make the cosmology thread.

 

[Berga14]

Agree for tier 0
No H1A weakling is hallowed

 

[Cloelolo_60021]

Agree this thread is the most real in ours vs battle wiki history

 

[Verlice_tempest]

if this is accepted,does that mean type 1 concepts are also accepted?

Type 1 concepts are already accepted in verse, for all great spirits, and possibly 1A for em too

 

[Teach1121]

Agree

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Type 1 concepts are already accepted in verse, for all great spirits, and possibly 1A for em too

Talking about 1-A versions…

 

[Berga14]

Type 1 concepts are already accepted in verse, for all great spirits, and possibly 1A for em too

Talking about 1-A versions…

This is a tier 0 crt, rn isn't the moment for 1A concept. If you guys want to talk about other things go somewhere else, do not derail this thread. Do not answer to this message.