Tensura LN Cosmology Upgrade Tier 1 (Retry)

[Astral_Trinity439]

Time flowing outside a timeline isn't enough for a perpendicular time axis. A temporal direction doesn't have a limit on what it affects, since it's just a direction of the flow. It moving differently compared to a normal universe isn't enough in my opinion.

But as long as "Time" is extending in the normal 4-D Direction[direction perpendicular to the 3 spatial axes], if someone is BFRed outside the 4-D time into a hyperspace, they would essentially not be able to experience any "Time" nor would any 4D time exist there.
However, the fact that Rimuru was BFRed outside the timeline yet still experienced Time, it means that said "Time" isn't flowing in the 4-D direction. Additionally, Time itself is inherently perpendicular to Space, the fact that "Time" was flowing in a 4D Hyperspace outside 4D Time and any "Timeline"/Parallel World would thus be enough to indicate a perpendicular axes.

Additionally, he isn't in any other timeline/parallel world either, but rather outside all of them, because otherwise a contradiction would happen due to identity overlapping with the Rimuru of that timeline, which didn't happen.

If you can prove this, then yes it would count as evidence for a Hypertimeline.

I think you're misunderstanding something here again. It's not something like this, because that's still within the same snapshot and the same main timeline. 4D Time can be experienced in it. It's more of something like this

 

[CodeCCLL]

This is exactly what I think is happening at the end of space-time.

Red: Main timeline that Feldway destroyed.
Black circle: Unsignificant space at the end of spacetime.
Yellow: Hypertimeline axis
Pink: Rimuru's time travel.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

This is exactly what I think is happening at the end of space-time.

Red: Main timeline that Feldway destroyed.
Black circle: Unsignificant space at the end of spacetime.
Yellow: Hypertimeline axis
Pink: Rimuru's time travel.

The aim of the CRT is to get Low 1-C via Beyond-Space time tho, not the end of space-time
the latter is still within the scope of a "World", while "End of Space-time" is beyond a singular "Self-enclosed World"[as in the "Other worlds" that contain parallel timelines]

 

[Wikisource]

If you can prove this, then yes it would count as evidence for a Hypertimeline.

I think you have some misunderstood, what I talk about is Rimuru's time travel, that could travel from The End of Space and Time (where space and time not existed) to Cardinal World Universe before it has been completely destroyed. Not about time braching.

 

[CodeCCLL]

End of Space-time" is beyond a singular "Self-enclosed World"[as in the "Other worlds" that contain parallel timelines]

There is no tangible proof of this.

"The end of space-time" is obsivously at the point where Feldway destroyed the main timeline of the Cardinal Universe, as referenced in the title of the episode (the point of no return), and "beyond space-time" is a continuation of this point.

I won't do bullshit just to leave the door open for a higher tier.

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

Sorry to interrupt but I just wanted to say this.

It doesn't make sense, each person thinks of something different.

Didn't you guys talk about this before posting this CRT?

Each one has a different one, which confuses Qawsedf234 even more

If you don't agree on what you want, you confuse more people .

 

[Wikisource]

Sorry to interrupt but I just wanted to say this.

It doesn't make sense, each person thinks of something different.

Didn't you guys talk about this before posting this CRT?

Each one has a different one, which confuses Qawsedf234 even more

If you don't agree on what you want, you confuse more people .

I see.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

"The end of space-time" is obsivously at the point where Feldway destroyed the main timeline of the Cardinal Universe, as referenced in the title of the episode (the point of no return), and "beyond space-time" is a continuation of this point.

I won't do bullshit just to leave the door open for a higher tier.

It isn't...The Kanji and Chronological order is different.......

Rimuru and Ciel get transferred to "Beyond Space and Time" --> It is "Empty Space"[not Void], outside the Timeline they were in previously, BUT the Cardinal World has still not been destroyed" --> Ciel and Rimuru[sleeping] drift in this Empty space outside the Timelines and Ciel waits for what felt like an eternity for Rimuru to wake up --> The eternity passes when they reach the "End of Space and Time" --> Rimuru wakes up --> Ciel mentions they have reached the point of Emptiness[Void].
The "時空の果て" is used, which means the "End of Space and Time" rather then "Beyond Space and Time" [時空の彼方].

Let me directly quote some parts from the Volume in Japanese:
{Note: I will be putting translation guides and explanation for every single line that has a major term in the spoiler boxes}

《その通りです。フェルドウェイの〝時空跳激震覇クロノサルテーション〟で、我々は時空の彼方へと跳ばされました。そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりましたが、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。フェルドウェイの力では、基軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》
That's right. Feldway's “Chrono-Salutation” sent us to Beyond Time and Space. There, the life of the stars had long expired, but the world had not yet collapsed. It is assumed that Feldway's power was limited only to destroying the Universe of the Cardinal World.

Spoiler: Translation Notes

The Kanji used for "Beyond Time and Space" here is "時空の彼方"
時空 -> Space-Time
の -> Of/Possessive Particle -- Is not counted in the "Beyond Space-Time" translation, but is used in the alternate translation "Other Side of Space-Time"
彼方 -> "Beyond", "Other Side", "Over [something]"

For the "Universe of the Cardinal World", the Kanji is "基軸世界の宇宙"
基軸 -> "Cardinal", "Central", "Axis"[in the sense of being the "main" of something; Main World]
世界 -> "World", "Realm", "Sphere"
の ->Of/Possessive Particle
宇宙 -> Universe

その時間軸で何が起きたのか、正確にはわかっていない。
We do not know exactly what happened in that timeline.

Spoiler: Translation Notes

The Kanji for "Timeline" is "時間軸"
時間 -> Time
軸 -> Axis/Line

シエルさんが跳ばされた時点で、全ての物事は終わっていたからだ。
Because by the time Ciel-san was jumped, everything was over.

イヴァラージェがどうなって、どう動いたのかさえ不明なのだが、それでも確かなのは、世界は滅ばなかったという事実だった。
We don't even know what happened to Ivarage and how he moved, but what was still certain was the fact that the world was not destroyed yet.

それがフェルドウェイの望み通りだったのかもわからないが、俺にとってはどうでもいい話である。
I don't really know if that was what Feldway wanted, but it doesn't really matter to me.

《──その後、星すら瞬かぬ宇宙を漂うように彷徨さまよい、この世界の終わりを見届けたのです》
《──After that, I wandered aimlessly through space, where not even the stars twinkled, and witnessed the end of this world. 》

Spoiler: Translation Notes

The Kanji for "End of this World" is "この世界の終"
この -> This/Something close to the speaker, rather then something broad [I.e. The Cardinal World, rather then the entire World/Existence]
世界 -> World
の -> Of/Possessive Particle
終 -> End

──シエルさんが何を言ってるのか、いまいち理解出来なかった……。
─ ─ I didn't quite understand what Ciel-san was talking about.....

跳ばされた先が〝時の彼方〟で、そこから時間経過して〝時空の果て〟に至ったと？
You mean to say that we were jumped to “Beyond Time” and from there time passed and we arrived at the “End of Time and Space”?

Spoiler: Translation Notes

As we can see, both "Beyond Time"[〝時の彼方〟] and "End of Time and Space"[〝時空の果て〟] are used simultaneously. This should clear up the Chronological Order of events pretty much, but in any case, the word-to-word meanings are:

For "時の彼方", its as follows:
時-> "Time"
の-> Of/Possessive Particle
彼方 -> "Beyond", "Other Side", "Over"

For "時空の果て", its as follows:
時空 -> Space-Time
の -> Of/Possessive Particle
果て -> End Of/Final Point of

For "Time passed", the Kanji is "時間経過", which is as follows:
時間 -> "Time"
経過 -> "Passage"/"Progress"/"Flow" of something

世界の終わりを見届けたとか、何を言っているのかサッパリ不明であった。
I had no idea what she was talking about, such as having witnessed the end of the world.

というか、そんな状態で生きていられる訳がないだろう。
I mean, there was no way I could survive in such a state.

So there you have it. Once again, I shall explain the chronological order of events:
Feldway uses Chronos Saltation -> Rimuru is sent to "Beyond Space and Time" -> "Time Passes" and they drift in "Space" -> They reach the "End of Space and Time" and Ciel witnesses the "End of the World"[End of the Cardinal World]

 

[CodeCCLL]

It isn't...The Kanji and Chronological order is different.......

Let me directly quote some parts from the Volume in Japanese:
{Note: I will be putting translation guides and explanation for every single line that has a major term in the spoiler boxes}

So there you have it. Once again, I shall explain the chronological order of events:
Feldway uses Chronos Saltation -> Rimuru is sent to "Beyond Space and Time" -> "Time Passes" and they drift in "Space" -> They reach the "End of Space and Time" and Ciel witnesses the "End of the World"[End of the Cardinal World]

If you think that the events happened this way, you should not use any arguments about Rimuru's time travel in the first place, because in this case, we cannot even talk about a time when Rimuru could travel in time in the first place.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

If you think that the events happened this way

Its not "I think they happened this way", its what the RAWs say.

, you should not use any arguments about Rimuru's time travel in the first place, because in this case, we cannot even talk about a time when Rimuru could travel in time in the first place.

I didn't....
My arguments were based on Feldway BFRing Rimuru, and Chloe's travels...

 

[Meli_Tempest]

Like what Eikichi commented above, it would be better to discuss this in the general discussion thread why this is only complicating things further.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Its not "I think they happened this way", its what the RAWs say.

I didn't....
My arguments were based on Feldway BFRing Rimuru, and Chloe's travels...

@Mizuki67 If you agree with @Astral_Trinity439, you should remove my blog from crt because I based my arguments in that blog on Rimuru's time travel.

In this case, I need to make another CRT where I logically explain the events of Volume 21, otherwise this thread will not be applicable because I disagree with the OP, even if Qawsed thinks my arguments are sufficient for Tier 1.

 

[Mizuki67]

Overall none of what has been presented really meets the qualifications for two temporal dimensions. The only piece of evidence would be the End of Time having time, but that falls into the "Not reliable and therefore not useable" clause for space-times.

Overall I would still list myself as disagree. I think the author using "Time Axis" just causes confusion since we use a similar but unrelated term for Temporal Axis.

There is no tangible proof of this.

"The end of space-time" is obsivously at the point where Feldway destroyed the main timeline of the Cardinal Universe, as referenced in the title of the episode (the point of no return), and "beyond space-time" is a continuation of this point.

I won't do bullshit just to leave the door open for a higher tier.

Problem is qawsed already disagreed with this

The place beyond space and time can still be considered the world time axis because Time is still running there

For the end of time part I already mentioned that Rimuru used a space time distortion path and use time leap at the same time

 

[CodeCCLL]

The place beyond space and time can still be considered the world time axis.

Yes, it can be claimed, but the parts about Rimuru's time travel should be completely removed from the blog and discussions about Rimuru's time travel should not be used.

It should also be noted that Qawsed disagree with arguments other than Rimuru's time travel.

For the end of time part I already mentioned that Rimuru used a space time distortion path and use time leap at the same time

At a point where the World is destroyed, none of this matters.

 

[Mizuki67]

Yes, it can be claimed, but the parts about Rimuru's time travel should be completely removed from the blog and discussions about Rimuru's time travel should not be used.

It should also be noted that Qawsed disagree with arguments other than Rimuru's time travel.

At a point where the World is destroyed, none of this matters.

Very well then.. I will just be on your side to avoid any confusion.

 

[Mizuki67]

The part you say "doesn't count" is "Chloe's time travel" , as I explain in detail on the blog. In "Rimuru's time travel" , the "main timeline" where the infinite branching occurred in the first place has been "destroyed". However, Rimuru can still travel from World's timeline to "the destroyed past of the main timeline".

I think you're just not making the connection between the statements in the blog.

This is exactly what I think is happening at the end of space-time.

Red: Main timeline that Feldway destroyed.
Black circle: Unsignificant space at the end of spacetime.
Yellow: Hypertimeline axis
Pink: Rimuru's time travel.

If you can prove this, then yes it would count as evidence for a Hypertimeline.

What do you think about this Qawsedf ?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

In this case, I need to make another CRT where I logically explain the events of Volume 21, otherwise this thread will not be applicable because I disagree with the OP, even if Qawsed thinks my arguments are sufficient for Tier 1.

At least discuss them in the general discussion thread before, before posting the thread[if you have the time for that].

At a point where the World is destroyed, none of this matters.

It should also be noted that Qawsed disagree with arguments other than Rimuru's time travel.

The problem with Rimuru's time travel is the OP itself, because the OP's aim was to upgrade the Tiers of the Characters in the cosmology as follows:

Who will scale ?
-Velgrynd range will scale to low 1C since she can travel to other worlds and dimensions
-True Dragons (Characters who can destroy dimensions which would scale to Ultimate Skill and Disintegration magic users as well.)
-Great Spirits and VOTW
-Veldanava
- those who have large size type 9 will have type 10

But if we only take the "End of Space-time" and Rimuru's time travel as that, that automatically means Rimuru or the other characters[maybe even Veldanava, Great Spirits and VoTW] do not scale there. Only God will scale to it, and only Rimuru will have a tier 1 rating, and at that, only a tier 1 range....

 

[CodeCCLL]

But if we only take the "End of Space-time" and Rimuru's time travel as that, that automatically means Rimuru or the other characters[maybe even Veldanava, Great Spirits and VoTW] do not scale there. Only God will scale to it, and only Rimuru will have a tier 1 rating, and at that, only a tier 1 range....

I really don't know what you're talking about.

If this is accepted, as I stated in the blog itself, other dimensional worlds will be Low 1-C like Cardinal World. So everything mentioned in the OP and more will already be scaled to Low 1-C Worlds.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I really don't know what you're talking about.

If this is accepted, as I stated in the blog itself, other dimensional worlds will be Low 1-C like Cardinal World. So everything mentioned in the OP and more will already be scaled to Low 1-C Worlds.

Ok, so let me get this straight, you're using Rimuru's "Time travel" to get Low 1-C here, right? Concluding that from this:

This is exactly what I think is happening at the end of space-time.

Red: Main timeline that Feldway destroyed.
Black circle: Unsignificant space at the end of spacetime.
Yellow: Hypertimeline axis
Pink: Rimuru's time travel.

The problem with this here is that the Hypertimeline here is including Rimuru's time travel within itself; However, Rimuru's Time Travel did not really take place via the Hypertimeline of the other-dimensional world, because the other-dimensional world[the cardinal world] was already destroyed when they reached the "End of Space-time". The "End of Time" itself represents the end of the other-dimensional world[hypertimeline]'s time axis, which was reached after Ciel spend "what felt like an eternity" beyond space-time.

So basically, my point here is that Rimuru's Time travel is beyond the "Cardinal World"[other-dimensional world]'s Hypertimeline, it happened after the cardinal world was destroyed[that is to say, the entirety of the cardinal world[hypertimeline] was a snapshot in the "Time" Rimuru travelled in], because the Cardinal World's "Time" had already turned zero

ともかく、俺はシエルさんの話に付き合った。
Anyway, I went along with Ciel-san's story.

そして、今の俺に何が出来るのかを正確に把握し、今後に備える事になったのである。
And now, I have an accurate grasp of what I can do, and I have to prepare for the future.

切羽詰まっていたはずなのに、時間はたっぷりとあった。
I should have been in a tight situation, but I had plenty of time.

いや、正確に言えば時間が流れていないのだから、〝たっぷりと〟どころかゼロである。それでも平気なのだから、俺もかなりおかしな存在になってしまったみたいだった。
No, to be precise there was no time flowing, not “plenty,” but zero. I was fine with that, so it seemed that I had become a very strange existence.

そんな訳で、準備万端。
That's why I'm ready.

時間が流れていないと扱えない権能の方が多いので、ぶっつけ本番となる場面も多そうなのだが、それでも俺の不安は消え去っていた。
There are many skills that can't be exercised unless time is running, so there will be many situations where I will have to do things on the spot, but even so, my fears were gone.

Rimuru was at the end of space and time when he said this, btw, not "beyond space and time". Meaning, the cardinal world[as a hypertimeline] had already been destroyed.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I really don't understand what you're trying to say right now.

You probably think that Rimuru is watching the end of cardinal world, but the phrase "end of world" there actually refers to the cardinal universe. There is a lot to support that this is just a simple word mistake.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

I really don't understand what you're trying to say right now.

You probably think that Rimuru is watching the end of cardinal world, but the phrase "end of world" there actually refers to the cardinal universe. There is a lot to support that this is just a simple word mistake.

He already explained it and gave raws. And you go on to say. “It is just a simple word mistake)

Can you give something that supports the fact that it is a word mistake?

 

[CodeCCLL]

I'll explain it tomorrow.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Sorry to interrupt but I just wanted to say this.

It doesn't make sense, each person thinks of something different.

Didn't you guys talk about this before posting this CRT?

Each one has a different one, which confuses Qawsedf234 even more

If you don't agree on what you want, you confuse more people .

On page 2 I saw that there were people who looked at it from a different perspective, as opposed to the way you want it to be understood.
I guess the best thing to do is to come to an agreement for the moment and decide together what to refer to in general, I guess closing it and reopening, it when everyone agrees on the same conclusion, would be fine.

 

[Mizuki67]

For a MWI to be Low 1-C you'd have to prove infinite branches every instance with those infinite branches also branching an infinite amount every instance. Branching constantly is 2-B to 2-A on its own.

Time flowing outside a timeline isn't enough for a perpendicular time axis. A temporal direction doesn't have a limit on what it affects, since it's just a direction of the flow. It moving differently compared to a normal universe isn't enough in my opinion.

If you can prove this, then yes it would count as evidence for a Hypertimeline.

What do you think about this Qawsedf ?

Bump ? Still need your response if it qualifies or not

 

[Mizuki67]

On page 2 I saw that there were people who looked at it from a different perspective, as opposed to the way you want it to be understood.
I guess the best thing to do is to come to an agreement for the moment and decide together what to refer to in general, I guess closing it and reopening, it when everyone agrees on the same conclusion, would be fine.

The problem here is that the end of space time here can be referring to the end of the Cardinal universe from the same scan. Like code said we do not have tangible or clear proof that Rimuru was sent to a completely different place during his beyond space and time travels and the fact that he can time travel there is the main reason why we argue for a hypertimeline in the first place.

Anyways they will still qualify for low 1c worlds.

Not related to the crt but:
I believe the eost and subspace should be separated from each other in the future. I talked with a knowledgable person in tensura he said that they are both not the same thing. No one seem to be able interact or use Spatial Abilities in the sub space and time is devoid there, and no one can fully comprehend it. Furthermore, when they travel there they can get sucked in to anywhere in the past and future

 

[Eisoks]

I think you should wait for a staff member to reply before continuing the conversation.

 

[Mizuki67]

I think you should wait for a staff member to reply before continuing the conversation.

I just want to announce that I am changing my stance for now. Just to be clear I am in no one side but you are right. There is no right and wrong in the world but I am just picking whatever side I am comfortable with

 

[CodeCCLL]

I believe the eost and subspace should be separated from each other in the future. I talked with a knowledgable person in tensura he said that they are both not the same thing.

It would be ridiculous if it were the same thing anyway. The un-significant space between the Worlds Velgrynd travels through is subspace.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Also, stop making unnecessary comments, if you can't understand how important what is being discussed is, let those who understand talk.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

You probably think that Rimuru is watching the end of cardinal world, but the phrase "end of world" there actually refers to the cardinal universe

The Cardinal "universe" had already ended by the time they were BFRed to beyond-time. That's why Ciel said "Feldway's power was limited to destroying the Universe of the cardinal world".
Ciel witnessed the end of the world after that, or to say, after drifting in empty space[inside the cardinal "World"] for what felt like an eternity.

It's the natural death of the cardinal "World" because its "Time" is over. Imagine something like a space-time, its basically a physical universe traced through the 4th dimensional axes for an Uncountably infinite period of time[the "length" of a line/time axis]. After that, what happens to the "Space-time"? It faces a natural death.

Think of it as something like "An immortal type 1 being is supposed to have a lifespan that allows him to live till Time itself ends/eternity passes. But what about after that? Will the being die after an eternity [of the 4th dimensional notion] pass? Its something like that, but on a far bigger scale.

but the phrase "end of world" there actually refers to the cardinal universe. There is a lot to support that this is just a simple word mistake.

Please bring in the "Supporting evidence" in that case, because what I said has been the same throughout both the LN and the WN
It would be a word mistake if the author only did it once, but he's continuously differentiating the "End of the world"/"End of space and time" from "Beyond space and time"/"Outside the timeline/universe of the cardinal world feldway destroyed".

 

[CodeCCLL]

CodeCCLL/The Point Of No Return Review

vsbattles.fandom.com

Look, I explained here how things happened in my opinion.

It is stated that at some point while returning, Rimuru crashed into a piece of tash floating into subspace. There are two possibilities in this regard. This trash either enters World through space-time storms or other means from subspace and crashes into Rimuru, or Rimuru accidentally gets disoriented while traveling through time and ends up in subspace. The latter is probably more likely.

Other than that, yes, Rimuru has never been in subspace, which is a completely timeless place. Even if he were found, he couldn't travel through time in any way, he could only travel like Velgrynd.

If you read the parts of the blog about other dimensional worlds and try to criticize the relevant parts with the Cardinal World, you can understand the situation better.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think about this Qawsedf ?

If it works in that way it would. But I'm getting like four different answers on how it works.

But if her time travel is going to a previous temporal snapshot and coexisting timelines don't naturally branch out, it would be Low 1-C.

But the blog also mentions MWI as the basis flr the cosmology and in that if worlds are formed directly from character actions then it's just Tier 2 since you can never get a uncountable infinite from that.

So if the current stance is different snapshots then sure, it's Low 1-C. If it's any MWI related then it's limit will always be 2-A due to how that terminology works in my mind.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But as long as "Time" is extending in the normal 4-D Direction[direction perpendicular to the 3 spatial axes

You're confusing time as a dimension and time as a direction of event placement. You can have a single time axis for a Low 1-A space if everything move in the same direction.

within the same snapshot and the same main timeline. 4D Time can be experienced in it. It's more of something like this

You just posted a slightly different version of my "would count" image there.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

You're confusing time as a dimension and time as a direction of event placement. You can have a single time axis for a Low 1-A space if everything move in the same direction.

You just posted a slightly different version of my "would count" image there.

Since it is slightly different would it still count?

 

[CodeCCLL]

But if her time travel is going to a previous temporal snapshot and coexisting timelines don't naturally branch out, it would be Low 1-C

This is what happens in Rimuru's time travel.

MWI as the basis flr the cosmology and in that if worlds are formed directly from character actions then it's just Tier 2 since you can never get a uncountable infinite from that.

This is what happens in Chloe's time travel.


The verse states the difference between Rimuru and Chloe this way.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Since it is slightly different would it still count?

By slightly different I just meant it's yelling the same thing is a different way. Either would count.

 

[CodeCCLL]

But the blog also mentions MWI as the basis flr the cosmology

Also MWI is just a branching of a single timeline, there is an encompassy timeline that contains all of these timelines, and there are countless of these encompassy timelines in cosmology.

 

[CodeCCLL]

As for the different aswers you are getting from Astral and Code... well, both their explanation should do for L1C, the main difference is about the divion between "end of space and time" and "beyond space and time". For Astral those 2 are different while for Code they are the same. This means that Astral will use all Rimuru stataments but not his Time travel while Code will use both the stataments and the time travel.
Both versions are good and both should fit for l1c, so chose which you like more, at most we will make a new revision when better translations will come out.

No, Astral doesn't use those arguments because he thinks Rimuru's time travel is something like 1-A. Astral thinks only Chloe's time travel will work to prove Low 1-C, but Qawsed thinks MWI is only 2-A and other things are not enough Low 1-C.

Please follow the thread properly.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

No, Astral doesn't use those arguments because he thinks Rimuru's time travel is something like 1-A. Astral thinks only Chloe's time travel will work to prove Low 1-C, but Qawsed thinks MWI is only 2-A and other things are not enough Low 1-C.

Please follow the thread properly.

Astral isn’t using eost at all.that is for a different thread. Qawsed already agreed that both arguments are low 1-C. The only difference between you and astral argument is that end of space time≠ beyond space time which you disagree with.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

They are literally the same thing as code has mentioned.

I disagree. Reasoning wasn’t good at all.no different from head canon compared to astral explanation.will leave that to a different thread.