Tensura LN Cosmology Upgrade Tier 1 (Retry)

[Mizuki67]

I disagree. Reasoning wasn’t good at all.no different from head canon compared to astral explanation.will leave that to a different thread.

You cannot disagree when literally all you have been saying is assumptions to begin with Rimuru never teleported or bfred to a random place instead the world has reached to the point of destruction which is referred to as the end of the world

As for vega he probably got caught up in the space time storm and he got sent to a random place beyond space and time or somewhere at the end of space and time. No where was it mentioned that Rimuru used the space time distortion path way to travel

 

[Vietthai96]

Qawsed already agreed that both arguments are low 1-C

uh oh, what??

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

You cannot disagree when literally all you have been saying is assumptions to begin with Rimuru never teleported or bfred to a random place instead the world has reached to the point of destruction which is referred to as the end of the world

Used raws to prove his point.and rimuru was literally BFRed to beyond space-time.there isn’t even much different from yall argument besides things like chronological order and disagreement on beyond space time ≠ end of space time.

As for vega he probably got caught up in the space time storm and he got sent to a random place beyond space and time or somewhere at the end of space and time

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

uh oh, what??

Previous page. Unless I am somehow misunderstanding something

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

Previous page. Unless I am somehow misunderstanding something

Qawsed never agreed with Astral about L1-C.

He only agreed with CodeCCLL if he can prove it.

CodeCCLL already wrote their argument, just wait for Qawsed.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

You're confusing time as a dimension and time as a direction of event placement. You can have a single time axis for a Low 1-A space if everything move in the same direction.

Indeed, but in such a case, if we remove the Time Axis from the Low 1-A construct, it won't have any "Time" at all[since its only governed by a single time axis], it would just be a collection of spaces, not "Time".

You just posted a slightly different version of my "would count" image there.

I did copy the part in the blue box from you, yes, since I was making the drawing in a hurry. But the point is, that is what happened here when Rimuru was sent to "Beyond Space and Time" and outside the regular 4D Timeline.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Qawsed never agreed with Astral about L1-C.

He only agreed with CodeCCLL if he can prove it.

CodeCCLL already wrote their argument, just wait for Qawsed.

By slightly different I just meant it's yelling the same thing is a different way. Either would count.

Am I misunderstanding something? He said either would count as low 1-C when I asked if astral version would count

 

[Mizuki67]

If it works in that way it would. But I'm getting like four different answers on how it works.

But if her time travel is going to a previous temporal snapshot and coexisting timelines don't naturally branch out, it would be Low 1-C.

But the blog also mentions MWI as the basis flr the cosmology and in that if worlds are formed directly from character actions then it's just Tier 2 since you can never get a uncountable infinite from that.

So if the current stance is different snapshots then sure, it's Low 1-C. If it's any MWI related then it's limit will always be 2-A due to how that terminology works in my mind.

Also MWI is just a branching of a single timeline, there is an encompassy timeline that contains all of these timelines, and there are countless of these encompassy timelines in cosmology.

Alright however can we get ur reply on this. I don't think the many world theory are referring to different worlds, they are only referring it as branching from a single timeline.

Edit: also please read my reply below we have added more information and proof now. The evidence and explanation we provided below are more solid

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

Am I misunderstanding something? He said either would count as low 1-C when I asked if astral version would count

He only spoke about the image that Astral showed, which was the same as what he sent before. The two are the same, that comment had nothing to do with his L1-C argument.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

They are literally the same thing as code has mentioned. The only thing that is independent from time is the subspace. Take it or leave it

I believe I already refuted that thoroughly. Why are you still bringing it up -_-

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

It is stated that at some point while returning, Rimuru crashed into a piece of tash floating into subspace. There are two possibilities in this regard. This trash either enters World through space-time storms or other means from subspace and crashes into Rimuru, or Rimuru accidentally gets disoriented while traveling through time and ends up in subspace. The latter is probably more likely.

Kinda missed this in the bundle of replies, so replying now. The latter could be, yeah, but I feel like people are misunderstanding that my claims and your claims contradict each other, so I ought to thoroughly clarify my part of how Rimuru travelled FROM the end of time and space TO a point where the world was not destroyed, and what the "Garbage" was.

Rimuru crashed into something while using the Space-time distortion path

Spoiler: Scan

俺達が通った〝時空の歪曲路〟を跳ばされていったみたいだけど、多分、亜空間に漂っていたゴミ だろうし、シエルさんが気にしていないのなら大丈夫だ。多分。
It seems they jumped through the same “space-time distortion path” we went through, but it's probably just some garbage floating in subspace, and if Ciel-san doesn't mind, it's okay. Probably.

When Vega[and Mai] were trapped inside the Subspace and the others used Breakdown Nostalgia on Vega, it was basically this point:

Spoiler: Scan

古城舞衣マイ・フルキは、全力で跳んだ先のどことも知れぬ空間に漂っていた。
Mai Furuki was drifting in an unknown space beyond where she had leapt with all her might.

恐らくは、亜空間と称される次元の狭間だ。
It was probably the gap between dimensions known as subspace.

ラミリスの迷宮から無秩序に跳んだから、位置座標を見失ってしまったのである。
They'd lost track of their spatial coordinates because of their uncontrolled leap from the labyrinth of Ramiris.

生きているだけでも儲けものだが、これはマイの権能によって『生存可能な空間を自動調整』され た結果であった。
It was a blessing to be alive, but this was the result of Mai's power to “automatically adjust the space in which she could survive”.

そうとは知らぬまま、マイは自分の幸運に感謝した。
Unaware of this, Mai was grateful for her good fortune.

After they were lost in Subspace, Mai stated that that she could still "jump through space-time" for some reason

Spoiler: Scan

（ク、クソッ!! 確かに俺じゃあ、複雑な権能なんて扱えねー気がする。けどよ……どうする？）
（Damn it! I certainly don't think I could handle a complex authority. But...... what should I do?)

このままマイに舐められるのは癪しゃくだし、かと言ってマイを殺してその権能を奪っても、ここ で手詰まりになってしまっては意味がなかった。
It would be irritating to be wronged by Mai, but killing Mai and taking away her power would be meaningless if he were to be stuck here.

ヴェガは迷った。
Vega felt confused.

このままではマイと二人、この何処とも知れぬ亜空間に取り残されるだけである。
At this rate, he and Mai would be left alone in this unknown subspace.

ここから跳ぶにしろ、マイ頼りだ。マイの気力が回復するのを待って、それから当てもなく『時空 間跳躍』する事になるだろう。
Mai was the only one who could help him jump from here. They would have to wait for Mai to recover her energy and then make a “space-time leap” without any idea of where they were going.

そうなると協力は必須な上に、いちいちマイの機嫌を窺わねばならない。
In that case, not only would cooperation be necessary, but Mai's mood would have to be observed at every step.

However, just during this monologue, they encounter what's called a "Space-time storm", and Mai got caught up in it.

Spoiler: Scan

それに気付いたのはマイが先か、それともヴェガだったのか……。
It was Mai who noticed it first, or was it Vega.....

強大無比の時空嵐が、その場に突然発生していた。
A powerful and unparalleled space-time storm was suddenly generated in that place.

亜空間の法則は、人知の及ぶところではない。
The Laws of Subspace are beyond comprehension.

その時空嵐に巻き込まれて無事で済むのかどうか、それさえも不明なのである。
Whether or not one could be caught in such a space-time storm and survive is unknown.

「逃げた方がいいわね」
“We'd better run away.”

「言われるまでも──」
“You don't have to tell me...”

ヴェガは、その言葉を最後まで言えなかった。
But Vega couldn't bring himself to finish the sentence.

マイもそうだが、より強大な力を垂れ流していたヴェガを中心に、新たなる時空嵐が発生したから だ。
The same is true of Mai, for another space-time storm was generated, centered on Vega, with even more powerful forces flowing out of it.

「──きゃ!?」
“───Kyah?!"

「ぐわぁ────────ッ!?」
“Wha--?!"

それは、抗う事など出来そうもないほど、強力無比なエネルギーの本流だった。
It was a stream of energy so powerful and unparalleled that it was impossible to resist.

ヴェガの手がマイから離れた。
Vega's hand left Mai.

それは好機なのだが、マイはそれどころではなかった。
It was an opportunity, but Mai had no time to worry about it.

光が舞う。
Light was dancing.

その時空の渦に巻き込まれるなり、精神生命体であるマイの意識さえも朦もう朧ろうとなって──
As soon as Mai was caught in the vortex of Time and Space, even her consciousness, as a spiritual life form, became fuzzy...

『諦めるなって言ってくれたのに、ゴメンね、ユウキ君──』
"I'm sorry, Yuki, even though you told me not to give up...”

そう心の中で呟いて、マイは意識を手放したのだった。
Mai muttered this in her mind as her consciousness faded away.

その時空嵐が去って、ヴェガは一人、しぶとく生き残っていた。
By the time the space storm had passed, Vega was the lone survivor.

「クックック、大した事なかったぜィ！」
"Kukuku, it was no big deal!”

喉元過ぎれば熱さを忘れるというが、ヴェガはまさにそれだ。
As they say, you forget how hot it is when it gets to your throat, and Vega was just like that.

だから反省もしないので、同じ過ちを繰り返すのである。
So, without reflecting on his actions, he kept making the same mistakes over and over again.

「チッ、マイとはぐれちまったか。これほど強力なエネルギーの奔流の直撃を浴びちまったんじ ゃ、もう死んじまったかもな」
”Damn, I've lost Mai. She's probably dead after being hit by such a powerful torrent of energy."

マイが死んでもどうでもいいが、その権能を奪えなかったのは残念だった──と、ヴェガは思った。
It didn't matter if Mai died, but it was a pity that he couldn't take that power away from her, Vega thought.

So basically, Mai was the one who got caught up in the Space-time storm. The "Space-time storm" is the Space-time distortion path.
It basically transfers whatever is caught up inside it to a random Dimension, and that's where Mai ended up in, as "Garbage" inside the "Dimension" outside the Cardinal "World", and there, Rimuru bumped into her when his first attempt at time wrap failed.

Spoiler: Scan

亜空間には、常に位相の変動が生じている。それは予測出来るものではなく、それに巻き込まれた ならば、どんな異次元空間へ飛ばされるか予測不可能なのだ。
In the Subspace, there are always Phase Fluctuations. It's not something you can predict. If you get caught up in it, it's impossible to predict what kind of extra-dimensional space you will be transported to.
{Translator's Note: The "Extra-Dimensional Space" is referring to the Empty Space after the End of the Universe/Timeline[aka "Beyond Time" and/or Outside the 4D Timelines}

時間の流れさえも歪曲された異界であるが故に、たとえ『空間支配』を有していたとしても、跳ば された場所から今と同じ地点への復帰は現実的ではなかった。
Because even the flow of time would be bent in that other world, it would not be realistic to return to the same point from which one was jumped, even if one had “spatial domination”.

ヴェルグリンドはそれを成し遂げたが、あれは偶然と奇跡が重なった例外である。
Velgrynd had accomplished that, but it was an exception, a combination of chance and miracle.

跳ばされた先だが、人が生息している別次元世界アナザーワールドだったらまだマシで、何もない 宇宙の終しゅう焉えんだったり、生命が誕生する前の大破壊の真っ最中だったりしても不思議では ない。
It would have been better if they had jumped to another world in another dimension inhabited by human beings, but it would not be surprising if they would jump to the end of the universe where there is an empty space, or to the middle of the great destruction before the birth of life.

{Translation Note: The Kanji for "Universe" in the "end of the universe where there is an empty space" is the same as the "Feldway's power was limited to destroying the Universe of the Cardinal World"

So basically, this is how Mai[the "Garbage" that Ciel mentioned] ended up bumping into Rimuru. The "Space-time storm" basically BFRed Mai from Subspace[outside the "World" and "Dimensions"] inside the "Cardinal World" where she bumped into Rimuru[Just because Ciel mentioned it was "Garbage in Subspace" does NOT mean Rimuru was inside the Subspace at any point, no].
Now, wasn't Rimuru already at the end of the cardinal world? Then how did he bump into Mai INSIDE the cardinal world? Well, remember that Rimuru used Time Wrap twice, the first time, he did a "mistake", and the second time, well, we don't know[cliffhanger-kun]

Spoiler: Scan

そうして俺は『時空間跳躍タイムワープ』を初めて体験して──ゴンッ──と、何かを跳ね飛ばしたような感覚があった。
And then, for the first time, I experienced the 'Space-Time Leap'──and felt like I'd bounced off something.
{Translator's Note: This is the first Space-Time Leap he did}

ん？
Hm?

もしかして、初心者運転にありがちな、事故ったとか？
Could it be that it was a common beginner accident?

《気のせいです》
《It is just your imagination.》

あ、そう？
Oh, really?

俺が何かを言うより先に、シエルさんがそう断言した。
Ciel-san responded before I could say anything more.

そう言うのなら、そうなのだろう。
If it's her saying that, it might be true.

俺達が通った〝時空の歪曲路〟を跳ばされていったみたいだけど、多分、亜空間に漂っていたゴミだろうし、シエルさんが気にしていないのなら大丈夫だ。多分。
It looks like they were forced to jump the Space-Time Distortion Path we passed through, but it's probably some garbage that was floating around in subspace, so if Ciel-san doesn't mind, it's not a problem. Probably.

初めて実行する『時空間跳躍タイムワープ』だったから、軽くミスしちゃったのかもね。
This is the first time I've ever done a Space-Time Leap, so I probably made a mistake.

まあ、そういう事もあるだろうと、俺は気にしない事にした。
Well, I decided not to worry about these sort of thing.

それじゃあ気を取り直して──
Well then, let's pull ourselves together──

「行くぞ！」
「Let's go!」

《御心のままに、我が君主イエス・マイロード──!!》
《As you wish, Master!》

俺の命令にシエルさんが応える。
Ciel-san responded to my order.

いつものように簡単に、それは当たり前の事だった。
As always, it was the norm.

シエルさんが俺の事を、絶対的に信頼してくれているのが感じられた。
I can feel Ciel-san's absolute trust in me.

その気持ちを裏切らないように心に刻み、俺は俺が正しいと思える世界を選択する。
Carving those feelings into my heart in order to not betray them, I chose a world I thought was right.

また失敗するかも知れないが、もはや俺に敗北はない。
I might make a mistake again, but I can't lose anymore.

そろそろ不幸の連鎖を終わらせて、明るい未来を築こうじゃないか！
It’s about time we put an end to this chain of misfortune and build a bright future!

そんなふうに考えながら、俺は皆が待つ過去へと向けて『時空間跳躍タイムワープ』したのだった。
With that thought in mind, I used “Space-Time Leap” and jumped toward the past where everyone was waiting.
{Translator's Note: This is the second Space-Time Leap he did}

So basically, Rimuru used Space-Time wrap once, but made a mistake. This "mistake" was that he didn't directly go to the point he wanted to[aka, in front of Feldway, like he did in WN with Yuuki], rather, he jumped to before the Cardinal World was destroyed, but he was still outside the Timeline/Universe[same thing as "Beyond Space-Time; he basically reverse-travelled from "End of Space-Time" to "Beyond Space-Time"]. After that, he used the Space-time leap again, and well, cliff-hanger strikes...

To simply, we can put it into this order.

Other than that, yes, Rimuru has never been in subspace, which is a completely timeless place.

Completely agree

Even if he were found, he couldn't travel through time in any way, he could only travel like Velgrynd.

Pretty much, or well, he could do it like what happened to Mai.

If you read the parts of the blog about other dimensional worlds and try to criticize the relevant parts with the Cardinal World, you can understand the situation better.

I think I described my viewpoint quite thoroughly in this reply that I'm writing, now.
Actually, I think now we may have a better chance since we now have an explicit statement regarding the "beyond Time and Space" and "Outside the Timeline before the end of the world" being an extra-dimensional space.

Before ending this, I want to clarify "How did Rimuru time travel then, if he was at the end of the world where the Hypertimeline had ended?", well, its via travelling in the Time axis/"Time" of the Dimension that contained the Cardinal World [since well, we know that Dimensions contain self-enclosed other-worlds like the cardinal world itself]
After this, I won't be replying until tomorrow, so there may be now reply for around 12 hours.

 

[Mizuki67]

Kinda missed this in the bundle of replies, so replying now. The latter could be, yeah, but I feel like people are misunderstanding that my claims and your claims contradict each other, so I ought to thoroughly clarify my part of how Rimuru travelled FROM the end of time and space TO a point where the world was not destroyed, and what the "Garbage" was.

Rimuru crashed into something while using the Space-time distortion path
When Vega[and Mai] were trapped inside the Subspace and the others used Breakdown Nostalgia on Vega, it was basically this point:
After they were lost in Subspace, Mai stated that that she could still "jump through space-time" for some reason
However, just during this monologue, they encounter what's called a "Space-time storm", and Mai got caught up in it.
So basically, Mai was the one who got caught up in the Space-time storm. The "Space-time storm" is the Space-time distortion path.
It basically transfers whatever is caught up inside it to a random Dimension, and that's where Mai ended up in, as "Garbage" inside the "Dimension" outside the Cardinal "World", and there, Rimuru bumped into her when his first attempt at time wrap failed.
So basically, this is how Mai[the "Garbage" that Ciel mentioned] ended up bumping into Rimuru. The "Space-time storm" basically BFRed Mai from Subspace[outside the "World" and "Dimensions"] inside the "Cardinal World" where she bumped into Rimuru[Just because Ciel mentioned it was "Garbage in Subspace" does NOT mean Rimuru was inside the Subspace at any point, no].
Now, wasn't Rimuru already at the end of the cardinal world? Then how did he bump into Mai INSIDE the cardinal world? Well, remember that Rimuru used Time Wrap twice, the first time, he did a "mistake", and the second time, well, we don't know[cliffhanger-kun]
So basically, Rimuru used Space-Time wrap once, but made a mistake. This "mistake" was that he didn't directly go to the point he wanted to[aka, in front of Feldway, like he did in WN with Yuuki], rather, he jumped to before the Cardinal World was destroyed, but he was still outside the Timeline/Universe[same thing as "Beyond Space-Time; he basically reverse-travelled from "End of Space-Time" to "Beyond Space-Time"]. After that, he used the Space-time leap again, and well, cliff-hanger strikes...

To simply, we can put it into this order.

Completely agree

Pretty much, or well, he could do it like what happened to Mai.

I think I described my viewpoint quite thoroughly in this reply that I'm writing, now.
Actually, I think now we may have a better chance since we now have an explicit statement regarding the "beyond Time and Space" and "Outside the Timeline before the end of the world" being an extra-dimensional space.

Before ending this, I want to clarify "How did Rimuru time travel then, if he was at the end of the world where the Hypertimeline had ended?", well, its via travelling in the Time axis/"Time" of the Dimension that contained the Cardinal World [since well, we know that Dimensions contain self-enclosed other-worlds like the cardinal world itself]
After this, I won't be replying until tomorrow, so there may be now reply for around 12 hours.

Yeah this starts to make sense now. I agree with this

 

[Mizuki67]

Astral isn’t using eost at all.that is for a different thread. Qawsed already agreed that both arguments are low 1-C. The only difference between you and astral argument is that end of space time≠ beyond space time which you disagree with.

Yeah I now know why both of you and @Berga14 said that both arguments can work now

I apologise for the misunderstanding.

 

[Mizuki67]

Alright however can we get ur last reply on this

One thing to note is that Rimuru time leap 2 times. One is where he escaped the end of space and time (A place where even the hypertimeline and its world has ended) using the space time distortion path or the dimension time axis and one is where he used the time axis of the Cardinal world, he ended up at the place beyond space and time or the point where the cardinal universe ended and this is what we are arguing for. With the evidence provided we can add up that the timeline and universe was already over at the time rimuru was sent to a place beyond space and time which the verse also called it as an extra dimensional space

Anymore questions please ask in discussion thread if possible because we don't want to clog the thread for now

That is all from me

 

[Mizuki67]

Kinda missed this in the bundle of replies, so replying now. The latter could be, yeah, but I feel like people are misunderstanding that my claims and your claims contradict each other, so I ought to thoroughly clarify my part of how Rimuru travelled FROM the end of time and space TO a point where the world was not destroyed, and what the "Garbage" was.

Rimuru crashed into something while using the Space-time distortion path
When Vega[and Mai] were trapped inside the Subspace and the others used Breakdown Nostalgia on Vega, it was basically this point:
After they were lost in Subspace, Mai stated that that she could still "jump through space-time" for some reason
However, just during this monologue, they encounter what's called a "Space-time storm", and Mai got caught up in it.
So basically, Mai was the one who got caught up in the Space-time storm. The "Space-time storm" is the Space-time distortion path.
It basically transfers whatever is caught up inside it to a random Dimension, and that's where Mai ended up in, as "Garbage" inside the "Dimension" outside the Cardinal "World", and there, Rimuru bumped into her when his first attempt at time wrap failed.
So basically, this is how Mai[the "Garbage" that Ciel mentioned] ended up bumping into Rimuru. The "Space-time storm" basically BFRed Mai from Subspace[outside the "World" and "Dimensions"] inside the "Cardinal World" where she bumped into Rimuru[Just because Ciel mentioned it was "Garbage in Subspace" does NOT mean Rimuru was inside the Subspace at any point, no].
Now, wasn't Rimuru already at the end of the cardinal world? Then how did he bump into Mai INSIDE the cardinal world? Well, remember that Rimuru used Time Wrap twice, the first time, he did a "mistake", and the second time, well, we don't know[cliffhanger-kun]
So basically, Rimuru used Space-Time wrap once, but made a mistake. This "mistake" was that he didn't directly go to the point he wanted to[aka, in front of Feldway, like he did in WN with Yuuki], rather, he jumped to before the Cardinal World was destroyed, but he was still outside the Timeline/Universe[same thing as "Beyond Space-Time; he basically reverse-travelled from "End of Space-Time" to "Beyond Space-Time"]. After that, he used the Space-time leap again, and well, cliff-hanger strikes...

To simply, we can put it into this order.

Completely agree

Pretty much, or well, he could do it like what happened to Mai.

I think I described my viewpoint quite thoroughly in this reply that I'm writing, now.
Actually, I think now we may have a better chance since we now have an explicit statement regarding the "beyond Time and Space" and "Outside the Timeline before the end of the world" being an extra-dimensional space.

Before ending this, I want to clarify "How did Rimuru time travel then, if he was at the end of the world where the Hypertimeline had ended?", well, its via travelling in the Time axis/"Time" of the Dimension that contained the Cardinal World [since well, we know that Dimensions contain self-enclosed other-worlds like the cardinal world itself]
After this, I won't be replying until tomorrow, so there may be now reply for around 12 hours.

For extended explanation and evidence please refer to this

 

[Meli_Tempest]

If it works in that way it would. But I'm getting like four different answers on how it works.

But if her time travel is going to a previous temporal snapshot and coexisting timelines don't naturally branch out, it would be Low 1-C.

But the blog also mentions MWI as the basis flr the cosmology and in that if worlds are formed directly from character actions then it's just Tier 2 since you can never get a uncountable infinite from that.

So if the current stance is different snapshots then sure, it's Low 1-C. If it's any MWI related then it's limit will always be 2-A due to how that terminology works in my mind.

A doubt has arisen for me, this that Qawsedf has said, can it be counted as an approval? Or should we wait for his explicit approval?

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

A doubt has arisen for me, this that Qawsedf has said, can it be counted as an approval? Or should we wait for his explicit approval?

It should count. But wait just in case he clearly accepted astral picture