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Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Discussion Thread 20

DebatingIsMyGoal said:
I also thought that the Great Spirit had died until I looked again, it never says anything about Great Spirits, the only thing it tells us is that the universe had stopped expanding. This idea that the Great Spirits died could have been a thing before, but the Veldora side stories explains that "once a world loses the power to expand, then it would lose the concept of time as well", the End of Time and Space specifically says the flow of time had stopped and the spread of space had ended.
Also the word "universe" is used, saying that Ciel had seen the death of the universe, unless you mean to tell me that Veldanava's World only had one universe, then I don't get how the Great Spirits would have died. The Great Spirits helped create Veldanava's world, and gave each world inside Veldanava's world their concepts, the Great Spirits are above those worlds, so I don't see how a universe dying would mean that the Great Spirits are dying. The mobius system's universe was almost erased by the mobius system, and that surely doesn't mean that the Great Spirits died.
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It's clearly stated tho, the last great spirit will erase all to Nothingness, even if you're right, Rimuru would still get it anyway due to Turn Null.
 
It is stated that the birth of a new Great Spirit would destroy everything, but the story doesn't tell us if that had happened at the end of Rimuru's world. The after stories later tells us that once the universe stops expanding the concept of time would be destroyed, which makes a lot more sense than the Great Spirits dying.

I just want to explain this misunderstanding, but you're right Rimuru should still get conceptual manipulation type 2 with Turn Null being able to recreate Veldanava's world, this includes the Great Spirits.
 
I want to ask, what would be considered Non Existent Physiology type 2? Nothingness that was before the concept of nothingness was even a thing? If so then Turn Null may become type 2, because there were Primordial energy before Veldanava(or anything, not even concepts) existed and he uses the Primordial energy to create his world, afterwards the type 2 concepts came into being.
 
DebatingIsMyGoal said:
I want to ask, what would be considered Non Existent Physiology type 2? Nothingness that was before the concept of nothingness was even a thing? If so then Turn Null may become type 2, because there were Primordial energy before Veldanava(or anything, not even concepts) existed and he uses the Primordial energy to create his world, afterwards the type 2 concepts came into being.
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Yeah, i'm also address that argument in Anos vs Rimuru thread.
 
Makenai said:
@Community_Gamer

Wrong and lying, Guro never translate the side stories and you clearly didn't understand the cosmology of Tensura verse. Great spirits gave birth to their corresponding concepts, the last great spirit born and destroy everything to Nothingness.

"A spirit is…
“In nothingness power finds its fill.
That is a holy spirit. The great holy spirit is the source of power.
Among these, light and darkness, the two great spirits.
Who came to exist at the same moment as the world.
But, the world was without form, a ephemeral existence.
Light and shadow, darkness and the light. Two existences that shall never interweave.
One day, the great spirit time was born.
The child of light and darkness.
And thus the world began to move.
The moving world spun, without purpose, around itself.
Inside the flowing currents of life and death,
Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Sky–these five great spirits were born.
And since then, these were the great eight spirits. Until the light consumes the world, erasing darkness. Until a new spirit is born, erasing all. Life and death, heralding the coming end of the world."

^This is the cause of the destruction of the universe. The universe explode on his face and Rimuru is fine and you forget that the one who creates those spirits is Veldanava and Rimuru is much more powerful than Veldanava.
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I don't know why you are being aggressive and accusing me of lying. I was under the impression that Guro (more so his team rather than specifically him) translated the Afterstory as well as since he translated the main story.

I've heard people say this but nothing said he requires them to create concepts or manipulate concepts. At least in my humble opinion. Also none that nor Ciel description inherently means that the universe ceased existence.
 
DebatingIsMyGoal said:
@Community_Gamer what do you think?
Click to expand...
I've heard people say this but nothing said he requires them to create concepts or manipulate concepts. At least in my humble opinion. Also none that nor Ciel description inherently means that the universe ceased existence.

Time still existed by the End of the World. It's even said time is stopped, meaning it exists. And space has simply ceased expansion (obviously because time stopped). So the most we could imply (possibly) is that Rimuru slept through the destruction of matter in the Cardinal World. But not much else.

ALRIGHT, this one's important. When they say "concept of time" they don't have to be speaking literally. It can mean that because their isn't any expansion in space the concept of time lost its meaning. You wouldn't even be able to distinguish time without space.

I personally don't think that the Great Spirits are concepts (or at least I haven't seen anything necessitating it).

Also the Mobius System was only going to affect the Other World so it probably wouldn't have consumed the space-time and just the space and matter within. So I'd wouldn't say Universal+ or anything.
 
I mean, Ciel did state that she saw the end of the world(Cardinal World), there was nothing in sight. The after stories state that the Mobius System had enough negative energy to override the universe's positive expanding energy and turn the universe back to 0, Veldora, Ramiris, and even Rimuru stated that the Mobius System was similar to Beelzebub.

The "flow of time here has stopped" could either mean that time no longer exists so the flow of time has stopped, or time still exists but it has been stopped for some reason.

For this point, it can be taken figuratively or literally, I take it literally because it would support that the flow time has stopped because the concept of time has ceased to exist, but you can take it however you want. We aren't the author so we can't really decide what this means, let's agree to disagree.
After rereading: Though you may be right, they state "Growthspeed = the movement of time. So when the world loses its power to expand, then it loses the concept of time as well." If the there is no expansion of space then there would be no meaning to time.

It does state that after the Great spirit of Time came into being the world began to flow, so there was no time before the great spirit of time came into being.
"One day, the great spirit time was born.
The child of light and darkness.
And thus the world began to move."

But the world still had nothing until the Great Spirits of the elements created the world we know.
"And thus the world began to move.
The moving world spun, without purpose, around itself.
Inside the flowing currents of life and death,
Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Sky–these five great spirits were born."

First the Mobius System had enough negative energy to turn the world(everything, it's space time included) into 0, back into nothingness, and it still had much more energy, it's energy was infinite like the expression of pi, even Veldora with his Ultimate Skill couldn't understand the energy it was producing.

"Veldora said. He felt like crying as well.
Even when he used his Seeker of Truth though his Ultimate Skill, ‘Nyarlathotep,’ he was unable to read the laws of energy that was constantly changing. The result, the only thing he could do was to read the energy that had leaked out and nullify it. It was a passive measure.
Furthermore, he had to use his aura to stop the other side from absorbing. This process was not only very difficult for Veldora, but it was harsh and seemed to be without end.
And time kept moving along.
There was no end in sight.
Just like the number of Pi, prime numbers continued to spread out before him."

Second, it couldn't affect the other dimension/worlds, Rimuru was even about to leave until he saw how much Veldora and Ramiris cared about this world.

"<<No. It will not affect the other dimensions. Only this universe will lose its progress and be returned to 0.>>
Oh. If it didn’t affect the other worlds, then I could just leave it and return home…
But Veldora was trying to save this world."
Edit: Oh wait you mean Other World as in the Mobius System's world, I didn't know you were using the light novel term in this sentence.
 
Community_Gamer said:
Yeah but it doesn't really mean anything imo
Click to expand...
Nah,i thought if tensura describes concept of time like in the upper replys,then rimuru was moving in a place which lacks concept of time.So, thought if anos got infinite speed for reacting to Edgar's spear which lacks concept of time,then why not rimuru.But I'm probably wrong
 
losing concept of time could mean losing the meaning of time because time is only there for the expansion/movement of space but if there is no expansion of space then time would lose its meaning aka concept, just like what we see in the end of space and time and also talked in the after stories. Could mean literally or metaphorically.

Aside from that, what does everyone think about Nonexistence type 2 for primordial energy? It existed before existence itself, before any great spirits, before Veldanava, so wouldn't this be nonexistence type 2 because it existed before any concepts, for a better explanation it existed without any concepts.

Also the same should go for Veldanava who existed before the World, he was born from nothing and had no concepts to create him, but he still existed in that place of nothing.
 
DebatingIsMyGoal said:
losing concept of time could mean losing the meaning of time because time is only there for the expansion/movement of space but if there is no expansion of space, just like what we see in the end of space and time and also talked in the after stories, then time would lose its meaning aka concept.

Aside from that, what does everyone think about Nonexistence type 2 for primordial energy? It existed before existence itself, before any great spirits, before Veldanava, so wouldn't this be nonexistence type 2 because it existed before any concepts, for a better explanation it existed without any concepts.

Also the same should go for Veldanava who existed before the World, he was born from nothing and had no concepts to create him, but he still existed in that place of nothing.
Click to expand...
Yeh, it makes sense, someone should make a CRT to it
 
Velgyrnd was traveling through different worlds, each world had its own spacetime and laws, so we can consider them universes. Velgrynd says that any True Dragon releasing their full power would destroy a weak world, universe in context, but if this is true then that would mean Velzado would also be able to destroy a world.
We know that Velzado doesn't have any ultimate skill, meaning that any true dragon without any ultimate skills(I wish she would expand on this further, is it any true dragon without ultimate skills or can it be any true dragon without skills) can destroy a world, and that would mean Guy could be universal since he battled both Veldanava and Velzado, although Veldanava didn't use his full power I can bet you Veldzado did.(possible Guy vs Velzado in the next volume)
Possible universal tiering for top tiers?

Also can someone tell me in which volume was the "World beyond time" mentioned?
 
DebatingIsMyGoal said:
Velgyrnd was traveling through different worlds, each world had its own spacetime and laws, so we can consider them universes. Velgrynd says that any True Dragon releasing their full power would destroy a weak world, universe in context, but if this is true then that would mean Velzado would also be able to destroy a world.
We know that Velzado doesn't have any ultimate skill, meaning that any true dragon without any ultimate skills(I wish she would expand on this further, is it any true dragon without ultimate skills or can it be any true dragon without skills) can destroy a world, and that would mean Guy could be universal since he battled both Veldanava and Velzado, although Veldanava didn't use his full power I can bet you Veldzado did.(possible Guy vs Velzado in the next volume)
Possible universal tiering for top tiers?

Also can someone tell me in which volume was the "World beyond time" mentioned?
Click to expand...
Uni+ makes more sense than only Uni
 
So someone should make a CRT for conceptual manipulation type 2 for Rimuru and Great Spirits and nonexistence type 2 for True Dragons?
 
Beezlebub would've been helpful in this type of situation.That guy got Isekaid lol.I've read wn but forget most of the stuff.Btw the 3 way attack from benimaru, zegion and diablo in wn.Did it create a bigbang?
 
Community_Gamer said:
It wasn't referring to the Big Bang, there's no big bang in slime. Its referring to Veldanava's creation of the universe with Turn Null.
Click to expand...
So Veldanava created an explosion?
The big bang allusions comes from the part "It caused a catastrophic, destructive power which was the greatest ever seen since the beginning of the universe."
 
I’ve seen a Japanese scan of Record of Ragnarok once that had something said about “creation of the universe” with the ruby text above it saying big bang.

Idk what the WN version or whatever this is in Japanese puts it but I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what’s it referring to.
 
Metalballrun said:
So Veldanava created an explosion?
The big bang allusions comes from the part "It caused a catastrophic, destructive power which was the greatest ever seen since the beginning of the universe."
Click to expand...
It's just a logical deduction. I'm throwing my hat into the ring so that people don't run into an unnecessary train of thought.

BUT we already know Veldanava used Turn Null and its primordial destructive energies to create the universes. So I don't see why'd there'd be a big bang but hey someone who's stuck on that idea can argue for it. Not to mention all the thematic juxtaposing and comparing that was happening with Turn Null. It fits with how much it was brought with Rimuru, Benimaru, and Diablo. Especially when Rimuru solves the problems right after with Turn Null.

That's just my piece. Take it how you will. WN is not my domain.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Can you show me the evidence for it?
Click to expand...

“In nothingness power finds its fill.
That is a holy spirit. The great holy spirit is the source of power.
Among these, light and darkness, the two great spirits.
Who came to exist at the same moment as the world.
But, the world was without form, a ephemeral existence.
Light and shadow, darkness and the light. Two existences that shall never interweave.
One day, the great spirit time was born.
The child of light and darkness.
And thus the world began to move.
The moving world spun, without purpose, around itself.
Inside the flowing currents of life and death,
Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Sky–these five great spirits were born.
And since then, these were the great eight spirits. Until the light consumes the world, erasing darkness. Until a new spirit is born, erasing all. Life and death, heralding the coming end of the world."

Here it states that when the Great Spirit of time was born the world began to move(This would mean that there were no time before the Great Spirit of Time came into being), but there was still an empty void without anything before the Great Spirits of the elements were born and created everything.

"One day, the great spirit time was born.
The child of light and darkness.
And thus the world began to move."
Great Spirit of time created Time.

"Who came to exist at the same moment as the world.
But, the world was without form, a ephemeral existence. "
There was still nothing even after the Great Spirits of light and dark were born, then time but there was still nothing until the Great Spirit of the Elements.
"The moving world spun, without purpose, around itself.
Inside the flowing currents of life and death,
Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Sky–these five great spirits were born."

Chapter 248:
"After that, I floated off into space, and witnessed the ending of the universe.]

-I couldn't quite understand what exactly Ciel was saying...

Did she witness the end of the universe? What was that supposed to mean....?"

uses universe when mentioning the end of space and time

Chapter 399:
"<<No. It will not affect the other dimensions. Only this universe will lose its progress and be returned to 0.>>

Oh. If it didn't affect the other worlds, then I could just leave it and return home..."

it mentions how the Mobius system would delete this universe(uses universe), and it wouldn't affect the the worlds(uses -s meaning plural).

from these we know that there are many universes inside Veldanava's world, and we know the Great Spirits helped create Veldanava's world.
(I don't really think Great Spirits should be type 2 concepts because we don't have enough info but ehhhhh)

For nonexistence type 2 it's really simple and I believe could be given to Rimuru.
Turn Null energy or Primordial energy existed before the World, Great Spirits, and even Veldanava. It existed before everything, before even the concepts that the Great Spirits are. Veldanava, as a true dragon, suddenly was born inside that nothingness, and existed there without any concepts. Rimuru is a true dragon, bam!

Although I don't think conceptual type 2 should be given, I know Non existence type 2 should.
 
Helestias said:
I mean if so, can't we scale them higher like galaxy level or solar system atleast?
Click to expand...
Idk since we don't know if there was ever a Big Bang in the first place.
Gamer pointed out something about how Veldanava created the universe, but as I haven't read the WN I don't really understand.

It needs to have more context than just that singular line to be approved, especially since the best feats outside of Rimuru/Velda in the WN were around High 4-C with Milim.
 
Metalballrun said:
It needs to have more context than just that singular line to be approved, especially since the best feats outside of Rimuru/Velda in the WN were around High 4-C with Milim.
Click to expand...
I mean its understandable.But specifically speaking,its never really stated how he created the universes.what veldanava created can also be throw turn null.Is there anything saying turn null can't create Bigbang and starts a new universe.But it also create worlds how rimuru wanted it.And if author says greatest ever since the beggining of the universe,he probably meant Bigbang.Fuse sensei didn't word it Better so it hard to usable as feats.But the energy which was contained in a absolute barrier actually created a balck hole instantly btw
 
Helestias said:
I mean its understandable.But specifically speaking,its never really stated how he created the universes.what veldanava created can also be throw turn null.Is there anything saying turn null can't create Bigbang and starts a new universe.But it also create worlds how rimuru wanted it.And if author says greatest ever since the beggining of the universe,he probably meant Bigbang.Fuse sensei didn't word it Better so it hard to usable as feats.But the energy which was contained in a absolute barrier actually created a balck hole instantly btw
Click to expand...
He uses Turn Null to create the universes. I think the more probabilistic interpretation that supported by the narrative is the creation hax of Turn Null rather a big bang. You could make an argument with the Law of Entropy necessitating a Big Bang. But I don't see the point. Also the big bang would be lower feat.
 
The statement doesn't actually mean much for scaling. Its just saying its the second strongest attack in history. But that doesn't make it relative to the strongest one. There come be a massively difference between them. So there's not much merit in discussing what exactly the more probable interpretation is.
 
I think the largest explosion besides the big bang seems to be of the black hole so it could be 4-A to 3-C as a high-end.

So, the argument for Turn Null having NEP type 2 is basically that it predates concepts and is technically nonexistent energy already?
 
Elizhaa said:
So, the argument for Turn Null having NEP type 2 is basically that it predates concepts and is technically nonexistent energy already?
Click to expand...
Yes, and wasnt prime Veldanava only a consciousness before the creation of the world and their concepts? He maybe should have NEP type 2 as well
 
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