Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Downgrades (4kids)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Comapred to the over 80 year history for DC and nearly 80 for marvel. Yes those shows and stories are short lived"

Not my point in the slightest, my point is that any story has inconsistencies, even 12 episode anime do.

"All the writers are working altogether on the plot and not separately not like comcis writers do for their series runs"

that doesn't mean the story will be more or less consistent.

"tv show writers making plot hole errors are far less likely than comic writers because these ones get replaced regularly every story and get changed to work on others"

Completely false. TV has just as much plot holes as comicbooks.

"while shows like supernatural or tmnt and what not have likely a ending in mind and are only limited to budget and season green lits by their networks."

So? Supernatural is chalk-full of inconsistencies. In one episode, Castiel needs help from Dean to push a car, and in another he is stated to be a "Multi-dimensional wavelength" that exists outside of time.

"Again I can most definitely see his tier being questioned and or changed in the past if ki control was no longer there as the AOE argument would most certainly for that show have nothing to fall back on and thus treat his universal fest as an outlier."

The only reason people question is because there's not a Universe being blown up in every fight. Why would it be? There's something called a "Story to tell".

 

[Dark649]

The final fighs of some Final Fantasy games did not caused the destruction of the planet like Terra vs Kefka or Vaan vs Vayne. In the final chapters of Toriko, the planet refured to explode because of the characters power.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Grudge name one time Kenshiro has blown up multiple islands during any of his fights.

Okay first I'm arguing as I stated several times above AOE arguments where the scale is in the stellar or cosmic range. Second, HNK has its own reasonings as for why environmental collateral damage is usually not there i.e. Their style is focused on damaging on the inside and thus less attacks are focused on area of effect and most character tank this those who don't get blow on away along with the environments direction(with raoh he blew stir get through a building as a side effect with a simple punch that tore through this one dudes torso ,two kenshiro and the like focus more on hax and less on AP with their fights, thus rarely fight long enough to seriously effect the area.

Even if you don't consider any of this and focus on feat consistencies Kenshiro has at least 4 feats to back up his AP versus if he only has one, Kasumis, raohs death punch, him splitting the sky twice both with Falco and one with Kaioh. And Falco surviving a nuclear bomb going off point blank in his vicinity.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

https://youtu.be/0FthCpYbNZw?t=520

Protagonists vs Lucifer vs Merkabah fighting inside a building in Tokyo. An incredible concentration of Multiversal+ fighting inside it, and it wasn't blown up.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I'd like to make this very very clear I am not saying the AOE argument is bs. I am saying the higher the scale of destruction a feat or character has, the stricter it should, be when applying the AOE argument.

 

[Dark649]

In a movie the fight with Ken and Raoh was casually destroying the city around them.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"I'd like to make this very very clear I am not saying the AOE argument is bs. I am saying the higher the scale of destruction a feat or character has, the stricter it should, be when applying the AOE argument"

Give one reason why other personal feeling of "I expect a Universal to at least be destroying planets".

 

[Grudgeman1706]

https://youtu.be/0FthCpYbNZw?t=520

Protagonists vs Lucifer vs Merkabah fighting inside a building in Tokyo. An incredible concentration of Multiversal+ fighting inside it, and it wasn't blown up.

Are these guys reality warpers of some kind, the laws of physics are thrown out the window with people like them so the AOE argument would work for them despite the difference in so and collaterals damage.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Are these guys reality warpers of some kind (...) so the AOE argument would work"

Tengu Shredder is also a Reality Warper according to his profile?

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@matt I'm Talking about cosmic scale reality warpers, mr mxy kind of reality warpers

 

[Ryukama]

[snip]

"Okay first I'm arguing as I stated several times above AOE arguments where the scale is in the stellar or cosmic range."

This is just special pleading. Why can't I go "Oh Kenshiro is only destroying rocks in these fights and never destroys islands" to downgrade him yet "Oh ___ is only destroying buildings in these fights and never destroys planets" is fine? This "scale" is just a way to justify not downgrading these guys for the same reason you're trying to downgrade other guys. Yet the actual difference is arbitrary and not properly explained as to why it matters.

"Second, HNK has its own reasonings as for why environmental collateral damage is usually not there i.e. Their style is focused on damaging on the inside"

Just because pressure point fighting styles are a thing doesn't give it reason to not be blowing up islands if said punches are this powerful.

"and most character tank this those who don't get blow on away along with the environments direction(with raoh he blew stir get through a building as a side effect with a simple punch that tore through this one dudes torso"

You think Raoh has Island level punches. Him destroying just a building only harms this idea. And harms the idea that ki control is a canon thing in HnK since clearly they do have collateral damage with their attacks.

"Even if you don't consider any of this and focus on feat consistencies Kenshiro has at least 4 feats to back up his AP versus if he only has one, Kasumis, raohs death punch, him splitting the sky twice both with Falco and one with Kaioh. And Falco surviving a nuclear bomb going off point blank in his vicinity."

Kenshiro has far more than 4 instances where his fights never do anything close to Tier 6 levels of destruction. And he does not have a Tier 6 feat of his own. Him splitting the sky can't be called Tier 6 unless it is properly calced. Nuclear Bomb tanking is like Tier 7.

The point is, any series can pretty much be downgraded if we discard AoE or use similar arguments towards them.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They aren't exactly on Mr.Mxy's level either and the protagonists can't react warp reality outside of Observation. It's just range.

Toki-cha never even destroys a Wall in the game, but she fights YHVH in the end, so she's Complex Multiversal.

 

[Ryukama]

I just want to say for the record that since I do not know about 4kids TMNT or this feat in question, I'm not arguing for or against the downgrade. Whether it's an outlier, not a real feat or whatever is unknown to me and not up to me to decide. I'm just simply like Ant defending the usage of Attack Potency/AoE and saying that practically anyone can be severely downgraded without it.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I think people are misunderstanding what grudge meant with aoe. You can judge feats with consistency and how the verse treats lower level feats. For example a character being exhausted destroying a city block has a mountain level feat via creating a thunderstorm. This is grounds for a outlier.

Also @ryu those cheap shots at his verse he supports are very dog and offtopic. Didn't ant just say to try keep hostilities down? You arent helping doing that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We also got Planet Level Sectet of Mana; another reality warper on a plantery scale that's still standard melee range with normal attacks. And same with the storms and stuff only being Town Level, but we still scaled Primm to Randi's Mana Sword.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm not trying to make any "cheap shots" or be hostile towards him or any series he supports. I'm simply pointing out that his arguments can be used to downgrade many other series. And that the mindset he's applying with some characters is inconsistent with how he's treating other series. I'm not calling him any names, insulting him, attacking his character, mocking a series he likes or any of the sorts.

Also with all these DBS, Marvel, DC, Kingdom Hearts, Mana, etc. being used as examples being how is using HnK any different? "We have Sora as Solar System level despite all his destructive feats being vastly lower" isn't a hostile attack just as "We have Kenshiro as Island level despite all his destructive feats being vastly lower" isn't.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@ Ryu

Just because pressure point fighting styles are a thing doesn't give it reason to not be blowing up islands if said punches are this powerful.

It actually is because the whole premise around the show involves pressure points, and it is noted throughout the whole manga show s pressure points doesn't need to effect anyone but the user and little effort is needed to really end the fight.

You think Raoh has Island level punches

Let me reword your question. Do I think every single punch they throw is island level. Of course not who the hell thinks this for any character. Even someone like causal Saitama doesn't destroy a continent when he one punches someone very single time. Very very rarely does a character ever display their AP as casual attacks(toriko is star level but is noted a serious attack of his only damages maybe country size portions, still impressive but no where near his actual AP.

Your assuming I don't think the AOE should be applied at all thus really showing you haven't been reading my arguments above thoroughly enough. It still works obviously and is needed to explain plot holes in shows,comics,mangas,etc. all I am suggesting is if the gap starts being enourmous i.e. Multiverse versus building level damage or something than it should be treated more strictly with some kind of evidence to prove the use of AOE, otherwise we go by case by case feats basis and context and see if they are outliers or not.

You are redirecting the whole point of this thread ryu and we should stop it. I already get what you mean since the beginning.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"all I am suggesting is if the gap starts being enourmous i.e. Multiverse versus building level damage or something than it should be treated more strictly with some kind of evidence to prove the use of AOE, otherwise we go by case by case feats basis and context and see if they are outliers or not."

You haven't explained why Island levels with Standard Melee Range are acceptable but Multiversals isn't. Other than "It seems absurd".

 

[Ryukama]

I'm not saying you think AoE shouldn't be a thing at all. But I still think that the idea that we don't need a canonical explaination for AoE for Island level yet do for Star level seems rather arbitrary. And that even if you aren't entirely against AoE all together the arguments you're using can still be used towards other shows as well.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Ryukama.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So there's been a lot of arguing about AoE and outliers, but wouldn't it be really easy to solve this by just finding if it's stated that Shredder moved the moon or not?

As an example, I'll use The Others. In the series (books, not TV show), the coming of the Others supposedly brings the night, because it seems to always coincide with their arrival. However, if this is true, all we know are that the others make it night. We don't know if they are doing something along the lines of stopping the Earth's rotation via their own power (they almost 100% aren't), or if this is just a vague dramatic effect. If we were told something more direct, like "Legend holds that the power of the Others is so great, they can bring about eternal night", this would at least suggest it is something they are actively doing with their own power.

Now I haven't watched this season, but like I said, this should be really easy to solve based on statements suggesting if Shredder was actively causing the eclipse or not.

 

[LordXcano]

"So there's been a lot of arguing about AoE and outliers, but wouldn't it be really easy to solve this by just finding if it's stated that Shredder moved the moon or not?"

It isn't, that's where the argument comes from.

"I'm not saying you think AoE shouldn't be a thing at all. But I still think that the idea that we don't need a canonical explaination for AoE for Island level yet do for Star level seems rather arbitrary. And that even if you aren't entirely against AoE all together the arguments you're using can still be used towards other shows as well."

It makes a lot more sense for a City leveller to display MCB attacks with hits that strike the environment than it does a Star leveller, basically. One character would have such feats as reasonably within the range of things that can hurt them, the other has no business displaying anything that low without explanation.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@ryu @matt basically what josh just said. Maybe I got a little things twisted with my explanations now that I'm rereading them.(it's really late over here and I'm just basically running on fumes when pulling out arguments atm.) I agree that maybe I shouldn't be treating the tier 7 and ups sp loosely compared to the cosmic ones as they can have contradictions too. AP is ap, however I should rewrite a little now what I think AOE should be when discussing lower tiers as well. Anyways I'm tired so I'll stop here.

 

[Antvasima]

No, obviously AoE does not make sense in real world terms, but it is a very common necessary plot convenience to ensure that any fight between characters does not destroy the setting.

 

[Ryukama]

@Xcano I understand that a level of consistency is required and that AoE can't always be used just to justify feats far higher than any other showings. However an Island level character whose every or almost every fight has Street to Wall level destruction is still not a reasonable range at all. Stellar may arguably worse, but the fact remains that neither an Island level or Star level should have destructive feats that completely lower by this type of reasoning. And if you want to use AoE to defend Island level, there's not much reason to also not do the same for Star. Since both are using AoE to defend a rating vastly beyond what all other feats show. Thus drawing a line between one massively extreme degree over the other is a bit arbitrary.

EDIT: @Grudge I understand and I'm fine with dropping this for now as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This again?

Darkanine has already explained why this is done by Shredder's power.

Joshless kinda have no explanation, tho. He just said that a Star level has "No business showing something that lower than his full power"... Except that he's automatically assuming that every Star level has Stellar range.

 

[LordXcano]

"No, obviously AoE does not make sense in real world terms, but it is a very common necessary plot convenience to ensure that any fight between characters does not destroy the setting."

I understand this, but I think thinking that way is pretty inheritely contradictory to the idea of actually analyzing a verse as if it was a real thing.

"an Island level character whose every fight has Street to Wall level destruction is still not a reasonable range at all."

True.

"the fact remains that neither an Island level or Star level should have destructive feats that completely lower by that reasoning. And if you want to use AoE to defend Island level, there's not much reason to also not do the same for Star. Since both are using AoE to defend a rating vastly beyond what all other feats show, then drawing a line between one massively extreme degree over the other is a bit arbitrary."

This is also true. I'd say it depends on how the character is presented and how the upgrade/downgradee is trying to present them.

If a character is just scratched by City level hits and treats Island level hits like they pack a real punch that's just an oddity of their durability. I'm not sure how to explain that, since I don't live in the verse, but that's the evidence we see. In this case them throwing out punches that are just Large City level still makes sense, as that's within their displayed range of "this can hurt me".

However, if they start going all out on the environment and the displayed damage is only Building level then that's a solid feat against them being ranked either City or Island level.

"Darkanine has already explained why this is done by Shredder's power."

That's not what Azzy asked for though. Azzy asked for a statement that Shredder did it.

"Joshless"

I'm Xcano. Where did you get that name?

"kinda have no explanation, tho. He just said that a Star level has "No business showing something that lower than his full power"... Except that he's automatically assuming that every Star level has Stellar range."

A megaton yield is going to have city level range. Unless the character in question has a way to condense the area of their attack they have no justification to not display such ranges when striking the environment.

If a "kiloton bomb" went off and only destroyed a house why would you sooner say that the bomb was legitimately a kiloton despite it matching none of the properties of a kiloton yield before you said that the yield was simply misreported?

 

[Ryukama]

I understand what you mean then. And I guess I'll stop going off topic and drop this like Grudge has agreed to as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"A megaton yield is going to have city level range. Unless the character in question has a way to condense the area of their attack they have no justification to not display such ranges when striking the environment.

If a "kiloton bomb" went off and only destroyed a house why would you sooner say that the bomb was legitimately a kiloton despite it matching none of the properties of a kiloton yield before you said that the yield was simply misreported?"

Except these characters aren't RL Kiloton / Megaton bombs, but rather characters who break physics by default with their super-strength and whatnot, and their attacks have a potency akin to nukes. Your analogy doesn't work.

And that's your name, right? Like on Discord and Reddit.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Matt: Darkanine has already explained why this is done by Shredder's power.

• And I explained why this isn't the case.

Also. I don't get understand the conquering the world argument. First of all, this was thousands of years ago. Japan had little contact with Korea and China at this point and certainty didn't know about the New World or Africa. He probably didn't even realize the world was as big as it was. Even then, maybe he's just content with conquering Japan?

• And how do you know for certain that he's merely okay with conquering Japan when the calc already implies that Shredder can just casually perform a Large Planet level feat with absolutely no effort? Conquering the world for him would still be very easy for him, considering that there wouldn't even be any opposition in the entire world who could even stack up to that level of power.
  • Simply put, if a character has enough power to be able to have the entire world under his thumb, he/she would, really.

@Darkanine: As for the Alphamon vs Dynasmon example, both Alphamon/Dynasmon scale to characters who have feats (or fought characters who scale to such feats) that give them their tiering. Alphamon for example, has fought against the Mother Eater, who was actually stated to reset the entire multiverse, thus would directly scale to it.

The issue with applying the above example towards the 4 Dragons/Shredder scenario is that the only feat that the 4 Dragons have shown to us is that they only perform single feat where they put effort into, where said yield of that feat is way under that of Large Planet level. Thus that single feat is the only one we can use to judge the capabilities of the 4 Dragons, as they have not shown any other feats that we can judge their capabilities on.

As for the area of effect argument, my argument for the 4 Dragons + Shredder not causing enough destruction with their attacks is not because the majority of their attacks are supposed to always cause Planetary level destruction, but rather, the scale of the battle that the Four Dragons are involved in.

• For example: The Ken and Raoh battle that Dark649 brought up is an example where we see that the scale of Ken and Raoh's battle involved an entire city, and caused that city to take serious damage as an after effect of their battles as a result. This is believable however, as we already know that Raoh and Kenshiro are strong enough to be assigned that level of AP.
• An another example of this is the Hulk vs Hulkbuster (Cinematic Universe) example where the aftermath of their battle caused the destruction of an entire skyscraper as well as involving a section of a city. This is actually believable because Hulk and the Hulkbuster are already capable of feats bordering around/exceeding that level.
• As for Matthew's Toki-Chan example, Toki-chan and the party's battle with YHWH involved an entire multiverse (But then Toki-Chan would somewhat scale to anyways YHWH since she did fight him).

To sum this up: If multiple guys who are rated building level are battling each other all out, expect an entire building to be involved, at least (at least in one instance).

But then, Azzy brings up a good point that a statement/scene of Shredder actually moving the Moon needs to be shown to us, as we have no concrete proof of whether the feat that was shown to us was actually done by someone, or if it is a different phenomenon. The instance where the 4 Dragons in their base forms exerting effort to perform a feat much lesser already contradicts this, and it is the only feat from the 4 Dragons that we can go by here. Also...

For example a character being exhausted destroying a city block has a mountain level feat via creating a thunderstorm. This is grounds for a outlier.

And for god's sakes. Don't involve Discord and Reddit in this. It does not belong here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't have much time to debunk this post today becase I'll be busy, but I can easily do it later.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Lina seems to make better sense here. My apologies.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"And how do you know for certain that he's merely okay with conquering Japan when the calc already implies that Shredder can just casually perform a Large Planet level feat with absolutely no effort?"

What does one thing have to do with the other? You're just expecting him to conquer the world because of his power, but he could just not have wanted to. This argument would be done even if he was only 7-B, there's no opposition in the planet for him. So it's a meaningless complaint.

"Simply put, if a character has enough power to be able to have the entire world under his thumb, he/she would, really."

Nope. Not at all, that's what you think, not the character. And this doesn't debunk the actual feat at all. It's just applying fridge logic.

It's like saying that Materia from FFVII can't be Continent level because "Why isn't there a global war happening with his" (I actually heard this once).

" As for the Alphamon vs Dynasmon example, both Alphamon/Dynasmon scale to characters who have feats (or fought characters who scale to such feats) that give them their tiering."

So does Shredder, what's your point?

"The issue with applying the above example towards the 4 Dragons/Shredder scenario is that the only feat that the 4 Dragons have shown to us is that they only perform single feat where they put effort into, where said yield of that feat is way under that of Large Planet level."

And you think every 2-A Digimon blows up Multiverses? Of course not. Scaling is a basic tenant of Versus Debating. Once again, you are using the AoE / Range argument.

"As for the area of effect argument, my argument for the 4 Dragons + Shredder not causing enough destruction with their attacks is not because the majority of their attacks are supposed to always cause Planetary level destruction, but rather, the scale of the battle that the Four Dragons are involved in."

So it is an AoE Fallacy, then.

Your examples are also selective. You seem to be okay with the fight between two City level or Large Island level only destroying buildings, but not the same for a Large Planet level.

And what about High 2-A or 1-C fights that happen inside buildings and the building isn't even destroyed? Would you say their actual feats are outliers simply because the multiverse isn't destroyed?

Every story requires a setting in order to take place, and the story can't take place if the setting is simply destroyed.

"The instance where the 4 Dragons in their base forms exerting effort to perform a feat much lesser already contradicts this"

They were exerting themselves to fight Shredder. Ever heard of range? It's the most basic of concepts.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think that Lina seems to make better sense here. My apologies.

Read my response, then. His argument is a repeat of the previous ones, it's simply a Range / AoE complaint.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, Lina:

"To sum this up: If multiple guys who are rated building level are battling each other all out, expect an entire building to be involved, at least (at least in one instance)."

This is completely arbitrary. Digimon and Shin Megami Tensei have 2-A fights who don't even involve an entire city.

This is arguing out of incredulity, I.E, "I don't believe a character this strong has a range this low."

Let's say in a verse, a character is shot with a 50 megaton nuke and is unharmed. Later, another character punches him to death but their fight doesn't even destroy the room they are on. Would you say that the other character is weaker simply because each of his punches didn't destroy a city?

Or would you rather assume that his punches simply have a higher potency than the nuke?

This is basic, and it applies to all scales of feat. There are even 1-A fights that don't destroy much, even comparatively.

 

[Tunasaladx]

Creating eclipses and not destroying buildings aside, has Tengu Shredder demonstrated any Large Planet Level abilities in combat? Even if he caused the lunar eclipse, it should only be considered Large Planet Level environmental destruction. Causing an eclipse is powerful, but not very useful in a 1-on-1 fight, except for special cases such as against a solar-powered entity such as Superman. If the ability can't be used as an attack, why would it be included in his AP?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Even if he caused the lunar eclipse, it should only be considered Large Planet Level environmental destruction"

Basic question: Where does the power to cause that come from? From Shredder's magic, logically. The same magic he can apply in combat. Downgrade My Little Pony over this same "Environmental Destruction" logic while you're at it.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with Cal, Matt and Dark here.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Minor thing but that's not what a lunar eclipse is.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Matt, DarkAnine, Cal, and Ever all continue have my agreements as well. The amount of kinetic energy required to cause the lunar eclipse can easily be applied to combat; especially if it's being done very casually as the others mentioned. The Chrono Trigger cast is ranked as Large Planet Level due to similar feats; and we also got the MLP cast at Tier 4 due to moving the stars as well.