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I apologise for that comment then however it is still quite surprising. Or maybe not.
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Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Downgrades (4kids)
- Thread starter Austrian-Man-Meat
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I agree it is surprising. When I first looked through the wiki, and saw that Kingdom Hearts characters were ranked at Solar System level (Or maybe only Planet level, dunno what it was back then), my initial reaction was "What? No way that's right."
Though after looking at the feats, I had to agree that was the accurate way to rank them.
Though after looking at the feats, I had to agree that was the accurate way to rank them.
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So with the TMNT issue...
From a closer inspection of the feat, we are going to see what happens just before the Eclipse of the Sun.
In the first screenshot (just before we see the solar eclipse), the only thing that we see here is that the dark spirit has taken over Shredder, and he gloats in his victory.
The next thing here is that we see here is that the Moon seems to cover over the Sun. During the eclipse, the narrator states
After this, the Moon completely covers the Sun, covering the light. However, there are two issues with this.
Feat 1
Feat 2
From a closer inspection of the feat, we are going to see what happens just before the Eclipse of the Sun.
In the first screenshot (just before we see the solar eclipse), the only thing that we see here is that the dark spirit has taken over Shredder, and he gloats in his victory.
The next thing here is that we see here is that the Moon seems to cover over the Sun. During the eclipse, the narrator states
| Oroku Saki's betrayal plunged Japan into an age of darkness |
- We do not know whether Shredder performed an actual technique to move the Moon or not, as we are not directly shown this.
- If Shredder, in this case, is capable of feats bordering on Large Planet level, Shredder would have taken over the world in an instant. It seems to have taken Shredder a significant amount of time for him to conquer the world (or is it Japan in this case). But then, if Shredder was actually Large Planet level, why would he only conquer Japan when he could have easily conquered the entire world without effort?
- Considering that the Moon eclipse is shown to us when Shredder is in his base form, and one of the four Dragons (who cannot be that much weaker than Shredder individually) actually put effort into her powers to perform this feat (shown below, actually 2 feats)...
Feat 1
Feat 2
- The 4 Dragons (with armor) are able to actually overcome Shredder (with armor), with their techniques, which forces Shredder to transform into his dragon form (16:05), with the implication that his power vastly increases. After the 4 Dragons manifested their Dragon Avatar, they went into a major battle, stronger compared to their previous forms. However, even with Shredder's full powers released, the Moon was still eclipsing the sun?
- As for what this means, The Moon is eclipsing the Sun at this point even without Shredder exerting his energy to keep said Moon in place, as Shredder would have no reason to exert any extra energy to do something else other than combat in that situation.,
- If base Shredder was able to casually do Large Planet level feats, their stronger Dragon forms should have at least involved the entirety of the world (if not more) in their battle. However, we are not shown this in the battle between the four Dragons + Shredder either (nor does the narrative in that episode even imply this). The most amount of destruction that happened during the battle was that Shredder's entire castle was destroyed and, that's pretty much about it.
- Why would Shredder be continuously exerting his energy to keep the Moon in place when Shredder even knows that the 4 Dragons are training themselves to defeat him? He would have no reasons to do so, especially when he transforms into his Dragon form.
- The Eclipse of the Sun caused by the Moon is just symbolism for Shredder's darkness covering over Japan during Shredder's rule, as Shredder's other feats (one Shredder does while completely amped to the max: He warps a planet or something) does not even come close to the Eclipse feat where he apparently performs it with no effort whatsoever.
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I apologize for making things personal. I'm having a long week with family problems and getting next to no sleep.
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Basically, the eclipse feat would be more valid only if we are shown Shredder performing the eclipse instead of the eclipse just happening and Shredder just walking by after the Moon has eclipsed.
In short, it is not clear if Shredder has actually eclipsed the Moon or not, because Shredder actually performing this is not shown to us.
In short, it is not clear if Shredder has actually eclipsed the Moon or not, because Shredder actually performing this is not shown to us.
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To answer Lina's points
"We do not know whether Shredder performed an actual technique to move the Moon or not, as we are not directly shown this."
But we know he did it directly.
"If Shredder, in this case, is capable of feats bordering on Large Planet level, Shredder would have taken over the world in an instant. It seems to have taken Shredder a significant amount of time for him to conquer the world (or is it Japan in this case). But then, if Shredder was actually Large Planet level, why would he only conquer Japan when he could have easily conquered the entire world without effort?"
Perhaps he had enemies to face that could actually match him somewhat. Also his range in physical combat isn't that great.
"Considering that the Moon eclipse is shown to us when Shredder is in his base form, and one of the four Dragons (who cannot be that much weaker than Shredder individually) actually put effort into her powers to perform this feat (shown below, actually 2 feats)..."
That's just range. Downgrade DBS while you're at it.
"The 4 Dragons (with armor) are able to actually overcome Shredder (with armor), with their techniques, which forces Shredder to transform into his dragon form (16:05), with the implication that his power vastly increases. After the 4 Dragons manifested their Dragon Avatar, they went into a major battle, stronger compared to their previous forms. However, even with Shredder's full powers released, the Moon was still eclipsing the sun"
I dunno what this proves. At all.
"The only way for the Moon here to keep its position is for Shredder to constantly hold said Moon in place"
Not really, he could have done it with a passive magic / reality warping power when he took over.
"As for what this means, The Moon is eclipsing the Sun at this point even without Shredder exerting his energy to keep said Moon in place"
How do you know?
"their stronger Dragon forms should have at least involved the entirety of the world"
AoE Fallacy.
"We do not know whether Shredder performed an actual technique to move the Moon or not, as we are not directly shown this."
But we know he did it directly.
"If Shredder, in this case, is capable of feats bordering on Large Planet level, Shredder would have taken over the world in an instant. It seems to have taken Shredder a significant amount of time for him to conquer the world (or is it Japan in this case). But then, if Shredder was actually Large Planet level, why would he only conquer Japan when he could have easily conquered the entire world without effort?"
Perhaps he had enemies to face that could actually match him somewhat. Also his range in physical combat isn't that great.
"Considering that the Moon eclipse is shown to us when Shredder is in his base form, and one of the four Dragons (who cannot be that much weaker than Shredder individually) actually put effort into her powers to perform this feat (shown below, actually 2 feats)..."
That's just range. Downgrade DBS while you're at it.
"The 4 Dragons (with armor) are able to actually overcome Shredder (with armor), with their techniques, which forces Shredder to transform into his dragon form (16:05), with the implication that his power vastly increases. After the 4 Dragons manifested their Dragon Avatar, they went into a major battle, stronger compared to their previous forms. However, even with Shredder's full powers released, the Moon was still eclipsing the sun"
I dunno what this proves. At all.
"The only way for the Moon here to keep its position is for Shredder to constantly hold said Moon in place"
Not really, he could have done it with a passive magic / reality warping power when he took over.
"As for what this means, The Moon is eclipsing the Sun at this point even without Shredder exerting his energy to keep said Moon in place"
How do you know?
"their stronger Dragon forms should have at least involved the entirety of the world"
AoE Fallacy.
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Very interesting indeedFanofRPGs said:
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I don't see why the canonicity argument matters when the profile divides the characters in seasons / series. I.e, meaning this only scales to the characters in Season 5.
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Nothing says the arc is non-canon. It was just a victim of unfortunate circumstance in the sense that it could not air on TV proper and was "replaced" by Fast Forward. Back To The Sewer even has characters from the Arc, such as Kon-Shisho and the Acolytes.
See here: http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kon-Shisho
See here: http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kon-Shisho
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But we know he did it directly.
I dunno what this proves. At all.
Not really, he could have done it with a passive magic / reality warping power when he took over.
How do you know?
- This is ambiguous, as Shredder actually performing said technique is not shown to us.
- The issue here is that when the Dark Spirit took over Oroki Saki, it states at (12:34) in the video that all of his opposition was destroyed at that point, meaning there were no enemies that could actually match him.
- This is more of a matter of an AP issue rather than range.
- Why do the 4 dragons need to exert effort to perform feats that require much lower energy compared to the Eclipse feat, which was apparently done with no effort.
- Keep in mind that each of the 4 Dragons should not be that much weaker than Shredder at that point.
- DBS has ki control, which allows characters to channel their AP into a focused area (which is why we are not shown that much destruction when Universe level characters start duking it out w/each other). This series does not have anything of sort.
I dunno what this proves. At all.
Not really, he could have done it with a passive magic / reality warping power when he took over.
How do you know?
- Even if an orbital body is moved from one position to the other, it would still take a continuous application of energy to keep said orbital body in place. For example, keeping the Moon locked in its orbit would require the same amount of energy as the kinetic energy of the Moon orbiting around Earth. Note that this energy requirement would still be much higher compared to any of the feats shown to us by the 4 Dragons
- He would have to exert this energy continuously towards the Moon, as stopping the exertion of this energy would just cause the Moon to start rotating around Earth's orbit again.
- If Shredder was using all of his powers into when he went into his Dragon form (Which he would be since he was facing off against 4 characters who are actually a match for him), there would be no reason for Shredder to continuously exert all of that energy on holding the Moon in place when he could have used it during the combat with the 4 Dragons instead.
- How do you know that passive magic/reality warping was involved in the feat? Moving the Moon from one place to another actually requires kinetic energy here.
- Considering that the Dragon forms should be >> in terms of power compared to their base forms where one of them can casually bust out Large Planet level feats w/no effort? Even a casual attack by said dragons would have busted entire mountains (if not more) and an entire battle between the four of them would have at least caused catastrophic environmental damage if the dragons were really as strong as you are making them out to be.
- Generally in fiction, the stronger the characters are, the more environmental damage occurred when they fight.
- But then, why would Shredder only have Japan under his rule when he's casually Large Planet level with no effort and can transform into a dragon anyways?
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"This is ambiguous, as Shredder actually performing said technique is not shown to us."
Everything indicates that the moon moved because of him.
"The issue here is that when the Dark Spirit took over Oroki Saki, it states at (12:34) in the video that all of his opposition was destroyed at that point, meaning there were no enemies that could actually match him"
And that would be a low-end even at Town level, so I don't see why it matters much.
"Why do the 4 dragons need to exert effort to perform feats that require much lower energy compared to the Eclipse feat, which was apparently done with no effort"
I think it's less that they exert themselves to do less, but when they go all-out there's less destruction, which, again, is just AoE.
"DBS has ki control, which allows characters to channel their AP into a focused area (which is why we are not shown that much destruction when Universe level characters start duking it out w/each other). This series does not have anything of sort."
You don't need in-universe excuses in order for AoE to be a thing.
"How do you know that passive magic/reality warping was involved in the feat"
I'm just pointing out a possibility. It's very likely that he Reality Warped it, and it stayed that way, rather than him continuously exerting that much force 24/7 for years, even in his sleep. The former makes much more sense.
"Even a casual attack by said dragons would have busted entire mountains (if not more) and an entire battle between the four of them would have at least caused catastrophic environmental damage if the dragons were really as strong as you are making them out to be."
Not really.
"Generally in fiction, the stronger the characters are, the more environmental damage occurred when they fight"
I can easily point out to fictions where the contrary is true. The more powerful the character is, the more he focus his attacks and doesn't waste energy. See Dragon Ball, for instance.
"But then, why would Shredder only have Japan under his rule when he's casually Large Planet level with no effort and can transform into a dragon anyways"
Why would he only have Japan under his rule if he can casually perform Town levels of energy and can fly as a dragon? This argument doesn't go anywhere.
Everything indicates that the moon moved because of him.
"The issue here is that when the Dark Spirit took over Oroki Saki, it states at (12:34) in the video that all of his opposition was destroyed at that point, meaning there were no enemies that could actually match him"
And that would be a low-end even at Town level, so I don't see why it matters much.
"Why do the 4 dragons need to exert effort to perform feats that require much lower energy compared to the Eclipse feat, which was apparently done with no effort"
I think it's less that they exert themselves to do less, but when they go all-out there's less destruction, which, again, is just AoE.
"DBS has ki control, which allows characters to channel their AP into a focused area (which is why we are not shown that much destruction when Universe level characters start duking it out w/each other). This series does not have anything of sort."
You don't need in-universe excuses in order for AoE to be a thing.
"How do you know that passive magic/reality warping was involved in the feat"
I'm just pointing out a possibility. It's very likely that he Reality Warped it, and it stayed that way, rather than him continuously exerting that much force 24/7 for years, even in his sleep. The former makes much more sense.
"Even a casual attack by said dragons would have busted entire mountains (if not more) and an entire battle between the four of them would have at least caused catastrophic environmental damage if the dragons were really as strong as you are making them out to be."
Not really.
"Generally in fiction, the stronger the characters are, the more environmental damage occurred when they fight"
I can easily point out to fictions where the contrary is true. The more powerful the character is, the more he focus his attacks and doesn't waste energy. See Dragon Ball, for instance.
"But then, why would Shredder only have Japan under his rule when he's casually Large Planet level with no effort and can transform into a dragon anyways"
Why would he only have Japan under his rule if he can casually perform Town levels of energy and can fly as a dragon? This argument doesn't go anywhere.
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I agree with Lina.
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I'm leaning towards Linas argument much more than Matt's. Casual town level attacks does not prove still the feat is not a outlier and the points about AOE only work or rather only accepted on higher scales like planet etc if their are pointed out reasons on why they don't do any catastrophic damage(if dragon ball didn't have the "ki control" argument I can most assure it would have been downgraded long ago.)
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I doubt someone like Cell or Goku Black care about Ki Control.
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"AOE only work or rather only accepted on higher scales like planet etc if their are pointed out reasons on why they don't do any catastrophic damage"
This really isn't how it goes. It tends to work on basically everything. I can point out stories where Multiverse level+ characters have fights inside buildings and the building isn't destroyed.
Range is just as important as Attack Potency. That's the reason it was renamed Attack Potency from Destructive Capability, because the later implied that's the amount of things you can destroy, while the former is the potency of your attacks.
"if dragon ball didn't have the "ki control" argument I can most assure it would have been downgraded long ago"
It really wouldn't. Marvel and DC don't have Ki Control either and they're not downgraded.
This really isn't how it goes. It tends to work on basically everything. I can point out stories where Multiverse level+ characters have fights inside buildings and the building isn't destroyed.
Range is just as important as Attack Potency. That's the reason it was renamed Attack Potency from Destructive Capability, because the later implied that's the amount of things you can destroy, while the former is the potency of your attacks.
"if dragon ball didn't have the "ki control" argument I can most assure it would have been downgraded long ago"
It really wouldn't. Marvel and DC don't have Ki Control either and they're not downgraded.
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I doubt Hulk Villains like Abomination or Enraged Hulk care either.The real cal howard said:
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Environmental Damage =/= Attack Potency. This is one of the most important aspects of our tiering system that I'm surprised it gets brought up all the time. Do you realize it would be expensive to animate mountains blowing up as the side effect of every time they attack? Writers don't know how strong their characters are, it's probable that they didn't think "Oh. Some nerd on the internet will calculate the kinetic energy of Shredder moving the moon 12 years after the show ended and end up with Yottaton level results".
The argument in general is flawed and silly. Superman, even in his weakest incarnations should logically leave cities in ruins during most of his brawls. Yet, he usually does not, unless it's supposed to be a huge deal.
Also. I don't get understand the conquering the world argument. First of all, this was thousands of years ago. Japan had little contact with Korea and China at this point and certainty didn't know about the New World or Africa. He probably didn't even realize the world was as big as it was. Even then, maybe he's just content with conquering Japan?
The argument in general is flawed and silly. Superman, even in his weakest incarnations should logically leave cities in ruins during most of his brawls. Yet, he usually does not, unless it's supposed to be a huge deal.
Also. I don't get understand the conquering the world argument. First of all, this was thousands of years ago. Japan had little contact with Korea and China at this point and certainty didn't know about the New World or Africa. He probably didn't even realize the world was as big as it was. Even then, maybe he's just content with conquering Japan?
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@Matt if you read comics as much as you say you do, you'd know a lot of characters high up in rank have their own reasons why attacks don't destroy on a much higher scale. In hulks case he purposely pulls back his punches and actually calculates the force needed to hurt his opponents while not affecting anyone around him(Amadeus cho confirm this both in heart of the monsters and hulk himself stated this in thst same series and proven this in his fight with his son skaar and in another issue.)
Superman has acknowledged his full speed would destroy the earths atmosphere on occasions and has mentioned several times he holds back on earth as to not destroy anything or anyone. Thor has stated the same with mortals. Etc etc. Comics acknowledges that certain characters should be capable of high level destruction fights but thst is why they place limits or perform CIS's for character in order to write off plotholes(obviously this isn't consistent as we have many many writers on both companies with their own ideas and of course they will slip on this but the idea is still there.)
@Cal I have no idea what your trying to prove here, if you want to downgrade DBS because of that reason than by all means go right ahead I'm just pointing out the fact that "ki control" is how DBS argues it's AOE argument.
Superman has acknowledged his full speed would destroy the earths atmosphere on occasions and has mentioned several times he holds back on earth as to not destroy anything or anyone. Thor has stated the same with mortals. Etc etc. Comics acknowledges that certain characters should be capable of high level destruction fights but thst is why they place limits or perform CIS's for character in order to write off plotholes(obviously this isn't consistent as we have many many writers on both companies with their own ideas and of course they will slip on this but the idea is still there.)
@Cal I have no idea what your trying to prove here, if you want to downgrade DBS because of that reason than by all means go right ahead I'm just pointing out the fact that "ki control" is how DBS argues it's AOE argument.
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"In hulks case he purposely pulls back his punches"
So when he is going 100%, he should logically cause a lot of destruction, but many times he doesn't. This doesn't apply to Abomination or other Hulk-level characters who are evil.
"Superman has acknowledged his full speed would destroy the earths atmosphere on occasions and has mentioned several times he holds back on earth as to not destroy anything or anyone"
Yes, but he's fought at 100% on Earth and it didn't destroy the planet.
"Thor has stated the same with mortals"
So his fights against other gods should all have large-scale destruction?
Comics do give reasons but they also contradict these same reasons, it's not a good argument. The reason these characters don't blow up planets in every fight is the fact that there has to be a plot.
So when he is going 100%, he should logically cause a lot of destruction, but many times he doesn't. This doesn't apply to Abomination or other Hulk-level characters who are evil.
"Superman has acknowledged his full speed would destroy the earths atmosphere on occasions and has mentioned several times he holds back on earth as to not destroy anything or anyone"
Yes, but he's fought at 100% on Earth and it didn't destroy the planet.
"Thor has stated the same with mortals"
So his fights against other gods should all have large-scale destruction?
Comics do give reasons but they also contradict these same reasons, it's not a good argument. The reason these characters don't blow up planets in every fight is the fact that there has to be a plot.
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Of course I don't wanna downgrade DBS. I'm pointing out that that argument doesn't always work unless the character is either good or a Saiyan.
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In Shin Megami Tensei, Teenage Bishie swordsmen fight against Multiversal+ gods and demons from mythology in the city of Tokyo, and in no point does the city get blown up.
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I have an example.Matthew Schroeder said:
Alphamon vs Dynasmo in Cyber Sleuth. Fought in a corporate HQ that doesn't damaged during the fight at all. Guess the Digimon god tiers cap at Wall level.
AoE argument is dumb. Sure, Superman may not go 100% all the time, but Doomsday does. Doomsday fought Superman going 100%. Logically, two Solar System level characters going 100% should've destroyed the entire planet, but it just destroyed a few city blocks.
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And before someone uses the "Superman wasn't as strong as he is now back then", sure, but he was already Large Star level, and even in the late 80s, Mon-El, a weaker Kryptonian, was hurling planets and pushing Dwarf Stars in his Legion of Superheroes run.Darkanine said:
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Are we going on about AoE fallacy again? ******* really? This is how nearly all of VS Debating works and trying to "debunk" it would be as bad as questioning our dimensional tiering, if not worse. Not sure how this is still considered anywhere close to a valid argument.
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Personally, I think the Dragon Ball comparison's are terrible examples; and not just the Ki Control, but the distinction between AP and DC. There are many JRPG characters whose best destruction feats are cutting through steel like butter and like building level Area of Effect with Magic; but they scale to 5-A or higher end game bosses. And as Matthew mentioned about Marvel and DC characters; there was even one instance where Darkseid's Omega Beams were easily deflected by an ordinary brick. But that's obviously PIS rather than a legit reason to downgrade Superman to Street Level.
Considering that Multi-Universe Level Belmonts, Large Planet Level Crono, Solar System Level Cloud, and many other ratings from characters with little to no destruction feats; Ki Control or not, I still strongly agree with DarkAnine and Matthew Schroeder.
Considering that Multi-Universe Level Belmonts, Large Planet Level Crono, Solar System Level Cloud, and many other ratings from characters with little to no destruction feats; Ki Control or not, I still strongly agree with DarkAnine and Matthew Schroeder.
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@Matt as I pointed already in my argument I already noted that theirs going to be contradiction even with the plot hole device in place BECAUSE theirs different writers for DC and Marvel and each one works on different stories Throughout the years your obviously going to get contractions which is why marvel and DC are tricky when it comes to outliers and inconsistencies. Comics aren't singular/linear stories, they need to keep fresh and alive for many many years to come, retocnning and coming up with new struggles or otherwise the stories die, with thst comes mistakes especially since again it's not one author but many
However in manga for example where stories are linear and sort lived(compared to comics) inconsistencies are way easier to point out and thus draw out outliers, which is why For example let's used our favorite example on this site Dragon ball for this. Dragon ball over the years has for the most part been fairly consistent, however when it does slip up everyone's main argument is of course "ki control" to write off the plot hole why does gokus fight not Enf with the world being destroyed, and to lesser extents other good arguments.
However with the introduction of DBS, AOE argument via ki control has begun to wore off for a lot of people. And as cal so generously pointed out some other inconsistencies in it like certain characters having no reason to use ki control i.e. Goku black or the entire Zamasu arc in general. However despite evidence to suggest AOE being contradictory, people still have goku where he is at via ki control and that's how it is basically. The tmnt verse however or shredder specifically has no excuse on the other hand to write off this huge plot hole they on them, unless cal or dark here can provide evidence to justify AOE for shredder or maybe some other feats that come close to shredders feat here(literally anything near planet, has to be near planet level.) than I'd side with Lina and the others and just write this off as an outlier
However in manga for example where stories are linear and sort lived(compared to comics) inconsistencies are way easier to point out and thus draw out outliers, which is why For example let's used our favorite example on this site Dragon ball for this. Dragon ball over the years has for the most part been fairly consistent, however when it does slip up everyone's main argument is of course "ki control" to write off the plot hole why does gokus fight not Enf with the world being destroyed, and to lesser extents other good arguments.
However with the introduction of DBS, AOE argument via ki control has begun to wore off for a lot of people. And as cal so generously pointed out some other inconsistencies in it like certain characters having no reason to use ki control i.e. Goku black or the entire Zamasu arc in general. However despite evidence to suggest AOE being contradictory, people still have goku where he is at via ki control and that's how it is basically. The tmnt verse however or shredder specifically has no excuse on the other hand to write off this huge plot hole they on them, unless cal or dark here can provide evidence to justify AOE for shredder or maybe some other feats that come close to shredders feat here(literally anything near planet, has to be near planet level.) than I'd side with Lina and the others and just write this off as an outlier
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"there was even one instance where Darkseid's Omega Beams were easily deflected by an ordinary brick"
Please show me this.
Please show me this.
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Okay finished my thing(lol clicked enter before it was done) also as Matt said pls show me where darkseids omega beams were deflected by fricken brick. That sounds bs to high heavens.
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@Matthew Schroeder tbh, it was probably a terrible example; as it would only apply to the DC Animated Universe but it's still PIS either way. Anyway Here's the link.
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@Grudge
Paragraph One
You do realize you can make the exact same point done with Marvel to any long-form storyline, right?
Not all Star Wars fiction has the same writer. Not every TMNT episode is written or directed by the same guy, same with Supernatural, or Doctor Who. Not every Warhammer 40K book is going to agree and stay consistent with each other, even within the same book series (There are some big discrepancies with how The Emperor is written in the Horus Heresy books, because the series has 7 different writers).
"However in manga for example where stories are linear and sort lived(compared to comics) inconsistencies are way easier to point out and thus draw out outliers, which is why For example let's used our favorite example on this site Dragon ball for this"
>Short lived
>Dragon Ball
Dragon Ball is a gigantic storyline that is bound to have inconsistencies. TMNT isn't short-lived either, over 5 seasons of cartoon.
"AOE argument via ki control has begun to wore off for a lot of people"
Only for people who want the Universe blowing up in every fight. It's not going to happen. Similarly with Dragon Ball Z, the Planet didn't blow up in every fight. And I dunno what's hard to understand about it, it's explained since the Saiyan Saga.
"people still have goku where he is at via ki control and that's how it is basically"
He would be where he is without Ki Control.
Paragraph One
You do realize you can make the exact same point done with Marvel to any long-form storyline, right?
Not all Star Wars fiction has the same writer. Not every TMNT episode is written or directed by the same guy, same with Supernatural, or Doctor Who. Not every Warhammer 40K book is going to agree and stay consistent with each other, even within the same book series (There are some big discrepancies with how The Emperor is written in the Horus Heresy books, because the series has 7 different writers).
"However in manga for example where stories are linear and sort lived(compared to comics) inconsistencies are way easier to point out and thus draw out outliers, which is why For example let's used our favorite example on this site Dragon ball for this"
>Short lived
>Dragon Ball
Dragon Ball is a gigantic storyline that is bound to have inconsistencies. TMNT isn't short-lived either, over 5 seasons of cartoon.
"AOE argument via ki control has begun to wore off for a lot of people"
Only for people who want the Universe blowing up in every fight. It's not going to happen. Similarly with Dragon Ball Z, the Planet didn't blow up in every fight. And I dunno what's hard to understand about it, it's explained since the Saiyan Saga.
"people still have goku where he is at via ki control and that's how it is basically"
He would be where he is without Ki Control.
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Okay but my actuall point with AOE is that with the AOE argument, it should be supposedly treated stricter the higher we get in AP results. With lower levels like island town or city sure AOE can be applied even if no specific reasoning is out, however after idk planet level is when things should be provided otherwise we have to lol into feat consistencys or case by case basis. As I said notable characters have been somewhat able to write this plothole away via CIS,PIS, or sometimes just in-universal physics. I can't really argue multiversal beings who don't destroy the city as I do not know those kinds of verses, with situations like that, it's when you begin to argue consistencies among feats and knowing which is an outlier or not or just bs statements.
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This is amazing. Even more amazing, considering that in the DCAU comics, Superman pushes a moon.Ryukama said:
Large Planet level Floor. Floor Above All.
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I've never watched the DCAU series really, but are those beams he's even shooting out the omega beams. Omega beams have a really notable red color and are unique in the sense they tend to bend when shooting. Are we sure that's not just normal energy being shot out(I know it's from his eyes) but at least it would make more sense than omega beams not piercing that floor piece(lol unless that floors material is just thst strong but nah terrible assumption.)
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I agree about that area of effect (meaning that universe-busting characters recurrently only manifest local effects with their punches) is an integral part of our wiki's system, that is necessary for most of our featured fictional franchises to function properly, and that we shouldn't start to try to undermine the principle.
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Dragon Ball is a gigantic storyline that is bound to have inconsistencies. TMNT isn't short-lived either, over 5 seasons of cartoon.
Comapred to the over 80 year history for DC and nearly 80 for marvel. Yes those shows and stories are short lived.
Not every TMNT episode is written or directed by the same guy, same with Supernatural, or Doctor Who
However theirs a difference to how these shows are written, for a show like tmnt super natural etc. All the writers are working altogether on the plot and not separately not like comcis writers do for their series runs. So their inconsistencies difference is much greater. tv show writers making plot hole errors are far less likely than comic writers because these ones get replaced regularly every story and get changed to work on others. And once more comcis have to last for many indefinite years, while shows like supernatural or tmnt and what not have likely a ending in mind and are only limited to budget and season green lits by their networks. Doctor who is a show I can put on the same level as marvel since its end is indefinite like theirs and goes through new writers likely regularly so it having Inconsitencies is far more lie,y than your average show, but as a sci fi it likely has answers for any plot holes introduced as shows like that want to stay scientifically consistent(at least that's what I think idk about Doctor who so I could be wrong.)
He would be where he is without Ki Control
Again I can most definitely see his tier being questioned and or changed in the past if ki control was no longer there as the AOE argument would most certainly for that show have nothing to fall back on and thus treat his universal fest as an outlier.
Comapred to the over 80 year history for DC and nearly 80 for marvel. Yes those shows and stories are short lived.
Not every TMNT episode is written or directed by the same guy, same with Supernatural, or Doctor Who
However theirs a difference to how these shows are written, for a show like tmnt super natural etc. All the writers are working altogether on the plot and not separately not like comcis writers do for their series runs. So their inconsistencies difference is much greater. tv show writers making plot hole errors are far less likely than comic writers because these ones get replaced regularly every story and get changed to work on others. And once more comcis have to last for many indefinite years, while shows like supernatural or tmnt and what not have likely a ending in mind and are only limited to budget and season green lits by their networks. Doctor who is a show I can put on the same level as marvel since its end is indefinite like theirs and goes through new writers likely regularly so it having Inconsitencies is far more lie,y than your average show, but as a sci fi it likely has answers for any plot holes introduced as shows like that want to stay scientifically consistent(at least that's what I think idk about Doctor who so I could be wrong.)
He would be where he is without Ki Control
Again I can most definitely see his tier being questioned and or changed in the past if ki control was no longer there as the AOE argument would most certainly for that show have nothing to fall back on and thus treat his universal fest as an outlier.
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