4kids TMNT base tier and speed upgrade?

[MKN66]

First post, forgive me if this comes out sloppy. After going through the 4kids series and a few threads on here, some feats stuck out to me against what we categorize the turtles' non mystic forms. My question with these feats is whether their speed can be bumped to Relativistic and their tier to Multi-City Block+ if not Small Town as I feel that is the healthiest medium. I hope my reasonings for why I think these feats reach that level are acceptable. There's a bit to go over so brace yourself

For starters, speed.



14:55 to 16:15 season 1 turtles react to laser beams. Putting these lasers through our "laser determination" standards, we see that they come out in unbroken straight lines, as is the case for light. Next they reflect off Leonardo's blades, a trait unmistakable with light since light photons get blasted off metal surfaces. Another sign suggesting they're light is Stockman proclaiming to dissect the turtles. Lasers burn things so Stockman using them this way to dismember them via precise heat makes sense for light. My final point is their source. Those devices firing them can be compared to industrial laser cutters which work off real light to burn material. They produce his mouser robots and part of his facility which runs on "the latest security tech" so they should be more than legitimate. Worth noting the turtles get much faster by the show's end



0:52-1:25 and 6:05: Three of them are perception blitzed by Khan repeatedly. Blitz requires around 3x speed, correct? As the final season goes on they catch up with him in future fights until Raph can solo him. For simplicity's sake I'll just show that. This doesn't account for season 4 Leo and Karai surpassing season 1 Ch'rell who > season 1 Leo+Raph, not to mention his brothers catch up by season 5 "The Graduation" where they all pass to the next skill level as equals



In short I believe their 3-5x amp makes them relativistic+.

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Moving onto my case for their Tier, I have THREE feats that suggest 8A to maybe even Low 7C. For the video above at 2:55-3:40 they go blow for blow with creatures and the force of their collisions violently shakes multiple sections of the city including Time Square, so mag 5.5-7. Now rewind to 2:25. Michelangelo momentarily knocks one of these mutants out, so although the turtles were driven off (likely due to the cramped space nerfing their maneuverability), it's obvious their ap should scale.



This site went over the Sword Of Tengu's "village waste/castle destruction" statements so I won't get into them, tho this feat may shed new light on their context. From pinned up to 16:52, an indirect blast from the Tengu Sword attached to a cannon going haywire rocks enough of the city where it was deemed an immediate threat to its civilization. As we all know the turtles get up from being blasted full force by this sword more than once including by Utrom Shredder. Sounds multi-city block to small town

https://youtu.be/7nesTJzm0ec?si=tni2bl2g0jozWyZi&t=1033

Utrom Shredder is caught in the atomized implosion of a large building. The end of "City At War Part 3" reveals he, in fact, survived, albeit in critical condition. Considering multi city block+ comes out from a 30 feet building being vaporized a structure well over double that's atomization should come MUCH higher. However, keep in mind that while there was enough of Shredder to retain consciousness, he was in VERY bad shape, wounded where he needed to be healed back, restored. So I don't think he's exactly whatever large building atomization gets, but this should put him in that Low Nuclear range.

Overall, I think the Turtles and Utrom Shredder are rated a little low. I believe a reaction speed of MHS+, though not a bad surface level estimate, overlooks their limitations. And small building is definitely too low. They have to be higher. Please let me know if this works.

 

[henryzx900ruly]

After reading and watching the videos that you have provided I agree that TNMT 4kids version should be upgraded on the page

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not sure about the light speed lasers thing, but as for the tiers. For one, those earthquakes don't really look like full fledged Earthquakes. Sword of Tengu was discussed as too vague to properly use when they used to be rated as Low 7-C for using said statements. Utrom Shredder does have the atomizing a Skyscraper feat being legit, which should be like in the 7-B range. But I think it either might be an outlier or the Utrom Shredder (Not the suits) is a stonewall.

 

[MKN66]

I'm not sure about the light speed lasers thing, but as for the tiers. For one, those earthquakes don't really look like full fledged Earthquakes. Sword of Tengu was discussed as too vague to properly use when they used to be rated as Low 7-C for using said statements. Utrom Shredder does have the atomizing a Skyscraper feat being legit, which should be like in the 7-B range. But I think it either might be an outlier or the Utrom Shredder (Not the suits) is a stonewall.

Lasers themselves definitely check out for the reasons given I feel. Diff discussion but if Sonic X's laser feat qualifies for FTL despite those lasers packing enough mass to explode the floor (machine produced light typically doesn't have much mass) then no reason we can't accept these more traditional ones as valid lasers.

For earthquakes, by full fledged you mean like continuous shaking? Well about the Tengu Sword cannon example, we're shown background buildings shaking continuously with it stated to be an immediate threat to civilization so that should be a traditional quake. But I was saying that feat might give the village destruction statement done in an immediate fashion more weight since that's minimum multi city block level.

The mutants one tho was more like tremors, yeah, but when you consider the force needed to produce tremors that reach far off parts of NYC, cause car alarms, water line ruptures, and people to lose balance, shouldn't it scale anyway? I mean they're still disrupting the city's tectonics on mag 5.5+, the effect is just more abrupt since it likely comes from a stray fire swipe hitting the sewer wall.

Yeah, Utrom Shredder's atomization is their only 7B feat. I figured the other feats I mentioned make it less disproportionate since by then their being in that High Urban to Low Nuclear area would suddenly become consistent. Then again the gap from 7C to 7B is still massive.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

For earthquakes, by full fledged you mean like continuous shaking? Well about the Tengu Sword cannon example, we're shown background buildings shaking continuously with it stated to be an immediate threat to civilization so that should be a traditional quake. But I was saying that feat might give the village destruction statement done in an immediate fashion more weight since that's minimum multi city block level.

The mutants one tho was more like tremors, yeah, but when you consider the force needed to produce tremors that reach far off parts of NYC, cause car alarms, water line ruptures, and people to lose balance, shouldn't it scale anyway? I mean they're still disrupting the city's tectonics on mag 5.5+, the effect is just more abrupt since it likely comes from a stray fire swipe hitting the sewer wall.

I mean, Earthquakes IRL are causing far more damage underground compared to how much damage they do to the Earth's surface.

 

[MKN66]

I mean, Earthquakes IRL are causing far more damage underground compared to how much damage they do to the Earth's surface

Yeah it's weird bc the scene doesn't cut underground. I'd say it's a logical assumption more damage took place. Water lines were bursting and at 1:15 it's shown the mutants casually cause streets to cave in even before the turtles and their scuffle send all those tremors

 

[MKN66]

Bump

So far 1 agrees with upgrading to rela+ and multi city block to small town and 1 is on the fence. My post's gotten 2 likes and the neutral has a like as well but I'm not sure if they're agreements or just courteous thumbs up

Update edit: Dialogue supports the Tengu Sword threatening an area of numerous city blocks as we not only see large buildings violently shake as well as the ground tear, Donatello states in that ep's opening narration that just using the cannon with it attached will collapse the south street seaport, which consists of 41 acres versus a city block having 4 to 7

 

[Oscar]

I think I relatively agree with the revision. Btw, the season 5 turtles should be High 7-C, since destroying mountains is calculated at least at this level

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think I relatively agree with the revision. Btw, the season 5 turtles should be High 7-C, since destroying mountains is calculated at least at this level

That needs evaluation from another Calc Group member.

 

[Oscar]

That needs evaluation from another Calc Group member.

I suppose it will be in 30 years, because that calculation has been going on since 2022 and they have not evaluated it, sooooo.....

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Contact some Calc Group members via message walls if they haven't noticed it in the evaluations thread.

 

[MKN66]

I think I relatively agree with the revision. Btw, the season 5 turtles should be High 7-C, since destroying mountains is calculated at least at this level

I feel mystic forms should be above base forms by a noticeable margin since they're power ups. If base turtles are 8-A to 7-C mystic forms ought to be one of those higher calcs. Then again it's worth noting EOS base Turtles/Splinter might scale to the Tribunal depending on how you reason Cyber Shredder posing a threat to them in the final episode and to base Tengu Shredder. Which would bring them A LOT higher

 

[Lonkitt]

You're likely correct that the 4kids TMNT pages are due for an upgrade. However, you're going about the revision in the wrong way:

A) You can't just eyeball where the AP/Durability feats you brought up land. While earthquake magnitudes have already been calculated, the other feats in the post haven't been. Those feats require calcs for a specific value

B) We don't use the site's blitz difference officially for speed differences when it comes to blitzing

C) Assuming the lasers are legitimate, the feats involving them should also be calculated

 

[Oscar]

Well, searching around, I found that Ch'rell's feat supporting the implosion of the laboratory gave High 7-C

Although yes, it is in Spanish

 

[MKN66]

You're likely correct that the 4kids TMNT pages are due for an upgrade. However, you're going about the revision in the wrong way:

A) You can't just eyeball where the AP/Durability feats you brought up land. While earthquake magnitudes have already been calculated, the other feats in the post haven't been. Those feats require calcs for a specific value

B) We don't use the site's blitz difference officially for speed differences when it comes to blitzing

C) Assuming the lasers are legitimate, the feats involving them should also be calculated

Yeah I meant the tiers more as a prediction using scaling logic of "this much was affected, and they handled this thing affecting this much, so I believe they're at that level" to recommend what I think their tier should be, but I understand the 2 feats in question (Tengu Sword indirect blast leveling 41 acres + the mutants leveling those city blocks) have to go through calcs to find out, and they're probably really hard to calc. Every tier feat here involves magnitude scaling aside from the TCRI implosion, and that was put at high 7-C

I'm a little confused about the blitz point, though. I included those 2 clips to show the turtles got significantly faster and were equal among themselves by the end of the series. They couldn't track Khan and then later on beat him individually

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah I meant the tiers more as a prediction using scaling logic of "this much was affected, and they handled this thing affecting this much, so I believe they're at that level" to recommend what I think their tier should be, but I understand the 2 feats in question (Tengu Sword indirect blast leveling 41 acres + the mutants leveling those city blocks) have to go through calcs to find out, and they're probably really hard to calc. Every tier feat here involves magnitude scaling aside from the TCRI implosion, and that was put at high 7-C

That’s not how we do things here. We don’t take shots in the dark

I'm a little confused about the blitz point, though. I included those 2 clips to show the turtles got significantly faster and were equal among themselves by the end of the series. They couldn't track Khan and then later on beat him individually

While Khan was in fact blitzed, we can’t outright say the Turtles were 3 times faster. That’s a really random guess and no statements are ever made about them being that much faster

 

[MKN66]

That’s not how we do things here. We don’t take shots in the dark



While Khan was in fact blitzed, we can’t outright say the Turtles were 3 times faster. That’s a really random guess and no statements are ever made about them being that much faster

With respect, I think you misunderstood my response. I wasn't asking the calc members to throw guesstimates. In the post I gave my scaling along with its reasonings then asked if the feats could be fact checked.

But what made that logic unallowed? 3x faster is just a safe placement based on the fact you have to be at least 3x faster than someone for them to not track you. Khan in the first fight was moving too fast for the turtles to perceive. They repeatedly lose track of him, both under surveillance and mid-fight. As the season goes on and they fight him more they're shown gradually keeping pace. They fail to even land a hit the first time around, then in the 2nd fight they keep pace after a surprise attack, and then by the end 1 of them is all that's needed to handle him in a straight 1v1. Far as statements go, in that same first fight episode, Mike comments about training again in light of Casey becoming relative to them. So we have a straight timeline showing them get faster backed up by a statement confirming they trained to reach a higher level, but the reason I said 3x is because the minimum required to blitz someone as a rule is 3x faster. What did I say that sounded like I was throwing random numbers out there and not just maintaining a safe deduction?

I don't see what makes "they became as fast as someone who was constantly blitzing them before which is considered being 3 times faster or more so they're at least 3 times faster" a headcanon