4Kids Base EOS Turtles 5-A?

[MKN66]

The 4kids Turtles have keys for seasons 1-4 and their S5 transformations but nothing featuring their future weapons in S6 or their final season post training states. I have my disagreements with their S1-4 and mystic tiers, but for this thread I want to put forth a chain scale for their EOS states bc there is a clear increase

As was thoroughly debated and concluded, ancient Tengu Shredder's maintaining a solar eclipse for days comes out to 5-A. The Ninja Tribunal defeated him, trading damage and keeping up, scaling them to him both in base and dragon forms.

Centuries later, in "Beginning of the End", the Shredder's 5 heralds invade the Tribunal's monastery to resurrect him, ambush 2 of them plus Splinter and Ancient One, hold off the mystic turtles and acolytes, then destroy 3 of the Tribunal rejuvenated. If the "1 Tribunal short" victory doesn't satisfy, it was agreed earlier that it would require all 15 warriors (the Turtles/Acolytes, Splinter, Ancient One, and the Tribunal) to stand against them, this was right after the Heralds were momentarily incapacitated while they were fully recovered, and season 5's narrative dictates that the Tribunal recruited the Turtles and four comparable fighters for training so they could help ward the Heralds off to prevent Tengu Shredder's return. This would reinforce the Tribunal's lack of confidence in vanquishing the Heralds themselves, so at the very least, Shredder's present day heralds are relative to beings that overpowered and defeated his ancient self if not more powerful.

Tengu Shredder is awakened and treats the Heralds as fodder, nearly killing them with one blast and claiming they are among his weakest underlings. So how does it make sense for Shredder's power to spike during centuries of hibernation? Right after he calls the Heralds weak, he elaborates that he had spent those centuries amassing his army "from this world and the next", so we're given a logical inference he had some spiritual quest that accumulated his power.

Easy chain scale, present Tengu Shredder > Heralds >/= Tribunal > Ancient Tengu Shredder

Enter Cyber Shredder, the final season's antagonist. A 3 way fight between him, Tengu Shredder, and Utrom Shredder in new armor rages on. While off-guard, Cyber Shredder gets blasted by Tengu Shredder who vows the Turtles' destruction is his right, but then he physically restrains him and separates him and Utrom Shredder in their 3 way fight, immobilizing Utrom Shredder then resuming his fight with Tengu Shredder.

Earlier at the 12:25 timestamp Utrom Shredder likewise overpowers Tengu Shredder and too withstands his bloodlusted blast while damaged. Same Utrom Shredder the Turtles beat the bricks out of at 14:50

Cyber Shredder then gains a stronger form during the final episode and fodderizes everyone he comes across including members of the Tribunal and Justice Force (see 17:40, 13:50, 11:15 of vid), the Turtles also take several beatings from him, with Splinter actually besting and dealing him permanent damage.

In short, the season 7/EOS Turtles are relative to beings that matched, withstood, and even overpowered Tengu Shredder multiple times. Thoughts?

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I had some of my own concerns about some of the mid keys but. Particularly the key of 7-C+ scaling from Raph's Banrai and the key that is Chi Empowered being At least 5-B, likely 5-A. I'll talk about the specific tiers later, but those keys should be merged given Raph and other Turtles are basically always Chi Empowered when using their special weapons. And the shatter mountain statement is likely referring to that.

As for the scaling, Tengu Shredder is most definitely 5-A; it's a feat he consistently does in all his keys + has multiple statements about being a threat to the entire planet and stated he could destroy and rebuilt it. However, I have some doubts about others downscaling from him. First, there was the original Tengu Shredder, who was too powerful for even the original Ninja Tribunal and Aroku Saki was the only one with the might to match it. But after he defeated it, they ended up merging into an even stronger Tengu Shredder. It's pretty circular for the NT to be no match for the original but able to defeat the stronger version. So it may be PIS.

Now fast forward to modern times. The Mystics unsealed and becoming much stronger do take out the Ninja Tribunal despite being quite fodder in the eyes of Tengu Shredder. Which only makes it even more doubtful the NT were on Saki's level in the first place. Or TS has gotten that much stronger could be an alternative. As for the Acolytes, there were considered potential candidates, but the best direct statement was Raph's mountain shattering. And Chi empowerment does make them strong, but where ultimately no match for the Unsealed Foot Mystics let alone Tengu Shredder.

Now back in New York, Tengu Shredder literally stomps everyone; including Master Splitter, the Ancient One, The Justice Force, Hun and the Purple Dragons, Baxter Stockman, the Foot Clan, and the Chi Empowered Acolytes. Karai was the only one who sort of slows him down, but that's due to some spiritual connection that made use of some meditation ability rather than physical strength. Though the four Turtles' Dragon forms are what ultimately save the day. And after his defeat, the 8 Acolytes end up losing their amulets and seemingly their Chi empowered forms. Giving the impression the Turtles got weaker again for Seasons 6 and 7. The feats who get also appear to consistently be back to normal levels from Seasons 1-4 and this even includes Splinter. As for the first episode of Season 7, we do see them go to an alternate bleak timeline where there is a three sided battle between three shredders. Utrom Shredder also gets wrecked with Don using the technology to make a portal home.

But back at home where they meet Cyber Shredder; he appears to be a digital clone that has all of Utrom Shredder's memories. And as for his feats and portrayal of power, he more or less is the same as Utrom Shredder and seems unlikely to be part of the planetary scaling chain. This is further evidenced that when he possessed Baxter Stockman, he even said "Had I known you were capable of such fine work, I would have treated you better!"

5-A scaling is definitely legit for Tengu Shredder and Dragon forms of the Turtles. But with all things considered, the Ninja Tribunal defeating Tengu Shredder could be PIS, and all those characters who survived being wrecked by TS could be outliers. None of those other characters like Hun, Baxter Stockman or Casey Jones seem to reliably be Tier 5, which would be getting those territory if Turtles were in base or if Cyber Shredder were. Or by extension if everyone has been Tier 5 as early as Season 1-4 as there is no proof of plenty of those characters jumping from 9-A to 5-A. There were also quite a few Tier 7 stuff which I feel should be looked at.

 

[MKN66]

I had some of my own concerns about some of the mid keys but. Particularly the key of 7-C+ scaling from Raph's Banrai and the key that is Chi Empowered being At least 5-B, likely 5-A. I'll talk about the specific tiers later, but those keys should be merged given Raph and other Turtles are basically always Chi Empowered when using their special weapons. And the shatter mountain statement is likely referring to that.

As for the scaling, Tengu Shredder is most definitely 5-A; it's a feat he consistently does in all his keys + has multiple statements about being a threat to the entire planet and stated he could destroy and rebuilt it. However, I have some doubts about others downscaling from him. First, there was the original Tengu Shredder, who was too powerful for even the original Ninja Tribunal and Aroku Saki was the only one with the might to match it. But after he defeated it, they ended up merging into an even stronger Tengu Shredder. It's pretty circular for the NT to be no match for the original but able to defeat the stronger version. So it may be PIS.

Now fast forward to modern times. The Mystics unsealed and becoming much stronger do take out the Ninja Tribunal despite being quite fodder in the eyes of Tengu Shredder. Which only makes it even more doubtful the NT were on Saki's level in the first place. Or TS has gotten that much stronger could be an alternative. As for the Acolytes, there were considered potential candidates, but the best direct statement was Raph's mountain shattering. And Chi empowerment does make them strong, but where ultimately no match for the Unsealed Foot Mystics let alone Tengu Shredder.

Now back in New York, Tengu Shredder literally stomps everyone; including Master Splitter, the Ancient One, The Justice Force, Hun and the Purple Dragons, Baxter Stockman, the Foot Clan, and the Chi Empowered Acolytes. Karai was the only one who sort of slows him down, but that's due to some spiritual connection that made use of some meditation ability rather than physical strength. Though the four Turtles' Dragon forms are what ultimately save the day. And after his defeat, the 8 Acolytes end up losing their amulets and seemingly their Chi empowered forms. Giving the impression the Turtles got weaker again for Seasons 6 and 7. The feats who get also appear to consistently be back to normal levels from Seasons 1-4 and this even includes Splinter. As for the first episode of Season 7, we do see them go to an alternate bleak timeline where there is a three sided battle between three shredders. Utrom Shredder also gets wrecked with Don using the technology to make a portal home.

But back at home where they meet Cyber Shredder; he appears to be a digital clone that has all of Utrom Shredder's memories. And as for his feats and portrayal of power, he more or less is the same as Utrom Shredder and seems unlikely to be part of the planetary scaling chain. This is further evidenced that when he possessed Baxter Stockman, he even said "Had I known you were capable of such fine work, I would have treated you better!"

5-A scaling is definitely legit for Tengu Shredder and Dragon forms of the Turtles. But with all things considered, the Ninja Tribunal defeating Tengu Shredder could be PIS, and all those characters who survived being wrecked by TS could be outliers. None of those other characters like Hun, Baxter Stockman or Casey Jones seem to reliably be Tier 5, which would be getting those territory if Turtles were in base or if Cyber Shredder were. Or by extension if everyone has been Tier 5 as early as Season 1-4 as there is no proof of plenty of those characters jumping from 9-A to 5-A. There were also quite a few Tier 7 stuff which I feel should be looked at.

The NT underwent extensive mystical training around the globe before they went up against the Saki-merged Tengu Shredder. Remember before that they weren't even immortal. We're meant to deduce they simply gained enough from said training to match him at that time. It's consistently stated.

I've always been curious about the Mystics being weaker before season 5, how do we quantify they would have less access to their powers? It was stated that they were under Karai's control. That doesn't specify whether they were weakened or their lack of freedom was just that: not being able to leave her. The sealed states could very well be an artistic choice; In "New World Order Part 2" they show they can shapeshift between them and their actual forms at will.

Pre-Graduation Season 6 Turtles are naturally as they were during season 4 but their 2105 upgraded weaponry allows them to perform energy based attacks and explosive sound waves. They can casually do things like blowing a T-rex and Triceratops away. Leo during this season solos the Utrom Shredder from season 1 when during the timeline of those eps Ch'rell could reliably beat up at least 2 of them. Their ascension to a new level in "The Graduation" plus the upgraded weaponry I feel would definitely warrant its own key regardless of how their s1-4 key is classified, which is most definitely higher than 9-A. I don't think limiting them to their lower-end feats is sound.

Cyber Shredder is a clone of Utrom Shredder fused with Viral. Based on statements of him being tougher than he ever was (Raph shouting "Why does this guy harder to fight, every single time we beat him?!" in comparing Cyber Shredder to Utrom Shredder) and outright wrecking him in that 3 way fight, all before his upgrade at the wedding, he is far above Utrom Shredder. That particular Utrom Shredder also carries armor never used before which would isolate any downscale or caps from his earlier feats, so his feat of being able to fight on relative terms with Tengu Shredder isn't out of the realm of possibility. Cyber Shredder winning the 3 way fight and rendering the NT helpless solidly scales him to 5-A, as well as Splinter and by extension the Turtles for harming him, not just surviving his assaults. Stockman's S7 exo suit falls under the same logic as Utrom Shredder, we don't have any prior information to give it a logical ceiling, not to mention we have no idea how Cyber Shredder's possession affected its power supply on top of the upgrades he already placed. I also wouldn't say Hun was even remotely a threat to him once he took it over.

Casey MIGHT have a case. We see him counter the Turtles when they reunited in season 7 and they had no idea of each other's identity, not to mention he fights alongside them and does decent in keeping up, so you're right, you could make an argument he would scale.

I would counter, though, that there's plenty of evidence to conclude the Turtles were simply holding back on what they thought was an ordinary intruder: Later Raph warns a mind controlled Casey "Don't make me hurt you, I don't want to!" and then proceeds to apologize before one-shotting him. I would say THAT singular instance of Casey holding ground to the Turtles and him getting away from their mind-controlled selves later in season 7 is the outlier. Every time they had a dispute and any of them went serious on him it was a one-shot. Either that or you would just assume his training under Khan brought him to their level.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In that case, The Ninja Tribunal being Tier 5 is fine. And I do still think the Tier 7 and Tier 5 keys should be merged.

Though, the Sword of Tengu was in a sealed state that was much weaker than it was in Season 5, and the forms of the Mystics were still sealed in ways which they were no where near as powerful as the Season 5 forms. The Turtles did perhaps get stronger in Season 6 compared to Seasons 1-4 counterparts, and the futuristic energy weapons still do not prove them being tier 5; keep in mind, it's still extremely consistent that various Tier 7 bombs have consistently been things the main cast found very devastating. And the sound waves feats and energy beams still lack Tier 5 level consistency.

I forgot about Viral and perhaps Cyber Shredder is considerably much stronger than the original Utrom Shredder, but there is also the fact that when Cyber Shredder possessed Stockman, he considered his mech to be an improvement. Let's also not forget Turtles Forever chronologically takes place after the final season, where Utrom Shredder returns and is back to being a threat to the Turtles and everyone else.

I suppose I am a bit more open-minded to some more Tier 5 scaling, but I'm still overall unsure about it and want to try to remain conservative about that.

 

[MKN66]

In that case, The Ninja Tribunal being Tier 5 is fine. And I do still think the Tier 7 and Tier 5 keys should be merged.

Though, the Sword of Tengu was in a sealed state that was much weaker than it was in Season 5, and the forms of the Mystics were still sealed in ways which they were no where near as powerful as the Season 5 forms. The Turtles did perhaps get stronger in Season 6 compared to Seasons 1-4 counterparts, and the futuristic energy weapons still do not prove them being tier 5; keep in mind, it's still extremely consistent that various Tier 7 bombs have consistently been things the main cast found very devastating. And the sound waves feats and energy beams still lack Tier 5 level consistency.

I forgot about Viral and perhaps Cyber Shredder is considerably much stronger than the original Utrom Shredder, but there is also the fact that when Cyber Shredder possessed Stockman, he considered his mech to be an improvement. Let's also not forget Turtles Forever chronologically takes place after the final season, where Utrom Shredder returns and is back to being a threat to the Turtles and everyone else.

I suppose I am a bit more open-minded to some more Tier 5 scaling, but I'm still overall unsure about it and want to try to remain conservative about that.

I'd push the same. By New World Order Part 2 they had developed their Chi-forms enough to where they surpassed the Mystics, so it should be 5-A as with their Dragon transformations. The mountain shattering statement could be brushed off as an average descriptor, kinda like how every big threat in Dragonball is generalized to just destroying the planet

Oh no, I'm not saying the future weapons bump them to any particular tier, just that they give them a new array of abilities that should qualify their own key. About those building explosions, eh, I mean, I feel it's more a matter of "lets logically not get caught in this explosion that could harm us or jeopardize what we're doing" than them being serious enough to kill them. The one time they do get caught in one, was in City At War with the warehouse blowing up on Leo and sending him into the bay. And he wasn't rattled at all. He pretty much recovered right away with no injuries.

My memory is iffy on that part, I had to double check. Cyber Shredder hijacks Stockman's new body from cyberspace and then attaches pieces of the motherboard for added armor upon remarking "This vessel could use some improvements." Is that the scene? It doesn't sound like he was implying it's superior to himself or the most recent Utrom Shredder, idk if that's what you meant? He was stuck inside cyberspace at that time. He needed Stockman as a vessel. His suit would meet the planetary chainscale after Cyber Shredder's upgrades.

Well, this would veer into a whole new subject so I won't get into it, but I actually feel Utrom Shredder with his finalized dimension x suit is the strongest Shredder. Narrative implication + survived a laser that was affecting the universe of Turtle Prime in his Titan state. Second hit killed him little by little