Tatsuya Shiba vs Reinhard van Astrea

[Xmark12]

Two overpowered individuals battle it out!

Rules: Win by K.O or when the other can't fight anymore. Both at full power.

(We can change the rules at any time to make the fight more fair)

Round 1: In-character

Round 2: Bloodlusted

Tatsuya Shiba's profile

Reinhard van Astrea's profile

Who will win?!? The Sword Saint, or the Magician?


Mr.Broke


One of the most overpowered anime characters out there.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

You're like a kid who just discovered a new toy with all these reinhard threads I swear.

 

[Xmark12]

=D

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I'd say tatsuya..via conventional P and A and hax

 

[GreatestSin]

^i thought that too until i saw this:

All attacks always miss him,

No curses, debuffs, or buffs can affect him,

Can gain whatever ability he needs to win,

Resurrection,

Can know of any abilities his opponents have,

as much as i see tatsuya as broken but this guy will wins no matter the situation, and since this power-list doesnt make a distinction between raid or not i guess he can use it in either mode,

therefore: reinhard 99/100 cases in R2 and 80/100 fights in R1 ^_^

 

[Xmark12]

1 - 1 for both.

^^

 

[Gemmysaur]

It's a battle of concepts here so I dunno. On one hand, everything should miss Reinhard, on the other, Onii-sama's Demon Right can't possibly miss as it is without a projectile of any sort.

Guessing, I'd have to go with Onii-sama as Demon Right doesn't give a flying fact about the physical body of the target (meaning it doesn't target Reinhard), but it deletes the "idea" that is the target in the information dimension.

Demon Right is not a buff, debuff, curse, projectile, elemental in nature, darkness attack, light attack, lightning, anything related to cooking, poison, disease, an attack that makes the target bleed, any sort of divine protection (as is Divine Left despite its name) and that pretty much renders 90% of Reinhard's blessings moot.

Not to mention, massive, horribly massive reflexes gap and Onii-sama one-shots rather handily in any round.

 

[GreatestSin]

^mmhhh, good point, but he can gain any power needed to win, that was mentioned in his profile too... i guess reinhard can become immune to anything tatsuya can do, exspecially since he has the power to instantly know what the enemy can do...

 

[Gemmysaur]

^mmhhh, good point, but he can gain any power needed to win, that was mentioned in his profile too... i guess reinhard can become immune to anything tatsuya can do, exspecially since he has the power to instantly know what the enemy can do...

He has to think it up first to actually gain an additional blessing. He can't gain anything after the idea that holds him together is gone. At least, that's what I got from him and Subaru's banter at some point.

Subaru asked if Reinhard had a blessing that can track people and he went, "hold on. Okay, I do now." and stuff like that.

And no, he doesn't have the power to know instantly what his opponent can do based on what is written on his skills.

Judgement: Enables the user to know of any Divine Protections his opponents have.

Initiative: He cannot be ambushed, and all initial attacks from Reinhardt connect.

First Attack Immunity: The first time an attack is performed at Reinhardt, it always misses.

Proceeding Attack Immunity: The second attack and all following attacks misses him.

 

[GreatestSin]

the part where he gave himself a power seemed rather spot on :/

and even if he doesnt learn all of tatsuyas abilitys, judgement should work with verse equal right? afterall divine protections are stuff people cant train, in tatsuyas case it would be his superpowers, which means that reinhard would be able to make himself immune against his left and right abilitys

and the attack immunity doesnt seem to rely on projectiles, so the attack misses even if it is projetile based or not :/

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Hard to 'miss' with straight up reality warping.

 

[GreatestSin]

^i dont think that probability has something to do with such hax abilitys :/ as i understood it, his powers make attacks impossible to hit him, so "accuracy" isnt a factor

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

They don't make attacks impossible to hit him, they do what they say they do. They cause them to 'miss'. He has the same 'causes it to miss' protection from projectiles, you can actually see this in the anime episode 3 - at the end, the bowel hunter throws her knife at him and he doesn't even move, the knife just randomly curves mid air and flies off to the side and and he knew it was going to be forced to miss so he didn't even blink.

And when I said 'hard', I was implying that actually there's no concept of missing when using instant ranged abilities that have no travel time like reality warping.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Onii-sama's Demon Right doesn't factor in accuracy as well. It just hits since it attacks the idea rather than the physical body. It ignores distance, obstacles, speed and what not.

Anyway, with verse equal, how do we even handle blessings? Re Zero inherently has both innate magic abilities in everyone and powers given by gods (and people with godlike powers, dammit guy who eats waifus) while Mahouka only has innate magic and spirit magic (though they do have dimensional magic like Elemental Eyes and the vampire spirit thing that made a cleaning bot a living being and part of Onii-sama's harem).

By that, we can categorize them as inner and outer magic. Innate abilities are those like Demon Right and Subaru's exploding headsmoke thing while outer abilities are those like blessings Reinhard recieved when the god that watches his family decided to ditch his mother to her death and spirit magic from Mahouka that manipulates beings not their own (spirit magic calls spirits to do their work for them (lazy people forcing work on innocent little critters, dammit).

Or we could just lump it all together and call it a day.

Regardless, Reinhard has to identify Onii-sama's magic first and then think up a blessing for it while Onii-sama only has to point at him to delete him from existence. Hard to think up a way to counter something when you get deleted while you are in the process of identifying something. And I don't even know if Blessing of the Phoenix (aka Resurrection) will work if the idea called Reinhard van Astrea is deleted.

 

[GreatestSin]

Onii-sama's Demon Right doesn't factor in accuracy as well. It just hits since it attacks the idea rather than the physical body. It ignores distance, obstacles, speed and what not.

actually it requires tatsuya to hit the targets eidos(or psion or whatever) information body in the information dimension, that means that it requires aiming(accuracy, if he doesnt aim at the correct info-body he wont hit the target, his accuracy is simply incredible high),

^that means that the attacks wont hit no matter what, the example you mentioned didnt seem to be obstructed through something, it should have moved its normal path and hit reinhard, but it simply didnt because the hax prevented it from happening, imo it isnt that much different with tatsuyas powers, they simply wont hit

PS: there is still the issue that reinhard could make himself immune to tatsuyas abilitys which makes this whole discussion pointless + reinhard can ressurect himself...

 

[DontTalk]

Interesting character, I think I once started reading the manga but that ended after a few chapters...

Either way I have a question. Why exactly are Reinhards abilities no NLF's? (well, the ones that tend to go in that direction, like all attacks miss ones or can have any ability)

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Idk, I'd guess that noone ever challenged them yet.

 

[GreatestSin]

@donttalk

good point :/

 

[Gemmysaur]

actually it requires tatsuya to hit the targets eidos(or psion or whatever) information body in the information dimension, that means that it requires aiming(accuracy, if he doesnt aim at the correct info-body he wont hit the target, his accuracy is simply incredible high),

PS: there is still the issue that reinhard could make himself immune to tatsuyas abilitys which makes this whole discussion pointless + reinhard can ressurect himself...

He targets eidos (the idea), not anything physical. He can pick apart which ones he wants to hit, like that time when he just made tiny holes on the enemies' limbs and not outright delete them.

Besides, even if we don't accept that he has no need for accuracy, there's still the fact that he can hit 36/24 targets simultaneously, when in a calm state and when pressured in combat respectively.

Furthermore, he can actually use Demon Right as an aoe and it still doesn't have a projectile so he still hits.

- - -

Additionally, according to the Reminiscence Chapter, Tatsuya is currently capable of setting up Decomposition as an Area of Effect magic and no longer requires someone to protect him while utilizing Material Burst, unlike that time in Okinawa when Sakurai Honami had to exhaust her Psions to shield him. Alternately, Tatsuya can use Decomposition as a contact-only magic to create the illusion that magic or weapons fail to affect him.

- - -

Also, Reinhard has to analyze first what Tatsuya's ability actually is before he can make himself immune, time which Onii-sama can use to delete him from the information dimension, removing the idea of "Reinhard" entirely.

Once again, I don't know how resurrection (that can only be used once) will happen if his data gets deleted. So as I said, it's a battle of concepts.

Someone who cannot miss at all as he sees eidos that makes up everything in the information dimension and anything touched there will reflect in the physical dimension, regardless of distance, speed and obstruction vs someone who always makes everything miss by virtue of having a blessing placed upon him.

We saw that when he was thrown a blade by the assassin with the nice cleavage, its trajectory bends away from him. Now unless he has shown making something that targets an idea or at the very least something that does not have a projectile miss, then he most likely cannot do so.

 

[GreatestSin]

this is why i hate hax battles if they are clear on who beats who,

either way, i stay on my first vote, reinhards hax seems more convincing

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Interesting character, I think I once started reading the manga but that ended after a few chapters...
Either way I have a question. Why exactly are Reinhards abilities no NLF's? (well, the ones that tend to go in that direction, like all attacks miss ones or can have any ability)

Reinhard even in his own verse is special well broken his original ability was to get whatever ability he wants at any given time and from that he has over 30 known abilities. His family is a line of sword saints the first of which helped sealed satella who destroyed half the world so his family is op but he is the strongest sword saint in history, why he is so broken hasn't been delved into yet as the story is only half why through but even in a verse where the villains are broken and have abilities like these:

• Stillness of an Object's Time (þë®õ¢ôÒü«µÖéÚûôÒü«ÚØÖµ¡ó Buttai no Jikan no Seishi)
  • The user can stop the time of themselves or anything they're wearing, touched, or even their breath. This stops any interference from outside and only allows the user's interference outwards. This negates any attack against the user, and if the user waves their hand anything in its trajectory is cut no matter the toughness. Atmosphere released from the stillness can cause shockwaves, gravel thrown around can become inevitable shots, and it can enable the user to travel at extremely high speeds. Normally, multiple uses of this ability can be deadly as the user's own heart also stops, however it can be circumvented when combined with another of the Authority of Greed's abilities.
• Gluttony (µÜ┤Úúƒ Bōshoku)
  • The user can eat the name and memories of their opponent. Those that have had their names eaten have their existences erased from the world, destroying any human relationships along with preventing the use of magic and negating any contracts with Spirits. Those that have their memories eaten become amnesic and any characteristics they may have had are reset, effectively making them into a different person. Those that have both their name and memories eaten simply become a shell, and although they live, they no longer eat, excrete waste, or age, putting them in suspended animation. Things such as experience, talent, and the likes and dislikes of human relationships serve as food for the user. However, if the user eats a fake name, they are plagued with severe nausea.

Reinhard is still more broken and didn't even consider them worthy enough to draw raid. The author says he is the strongest character in the verse and that a fight with satella would be endless because of a matter of affinity, and from what i heard from ln readers this is basically because satella can't hurt reinhard while reinhard can't kill her which apparalently has something to do with her not being tied to this dimension as even sealed she can still affect dimensions. But yea you get the point even the final villain of the verse can't exactly beat this guy he is that broken and the author knows it to where he even jokes in interviews about giving reinhard infinite revives.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Ah, I don't think DT was asking 'why is reinhard such a strong character compared to others in his series', but rather 'why are his stated blessings not treated as NLF (No Limit Fallacies)'.

The thing is, you can't just have a power that says 'enemies can never hit me' and have it fit on this wikis tiering system, such things have to bea put onto a scale and be able to be overcome by a superior higher tier ability or being.

A being on a higher tier than reinhard who has the power to 'never miss' would overpower reinhards 'always makes enemies miss' power, to suggest otherwise is to claim that there is 'no limit' to the power of reinhards hax - that even an omnipotent being could not land a hit against him. Such a claim is clearly rediculous, there is obviously some level of power above reinhard who would be able to overpower his blessings. Hence, 'no limit fallacy'.

The most obvious answer to DT's question is, the profile probably has not had enough attention yet for someone to notice this large stack of NLFs and attempt to quantify how effective they actually are.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Ah, I don't think DT was asking 'why is reinhard such a strong character compared to others in his series', but rather 'why are his stated blessings not treated as NLF (No Limit Fallacies)'.
The thing is, you can't just have a power that says 'enemies can never hit me' and have it fit on this wikis tiering system, such things have to bea put onto a scale and be able to be overcome by a superior higher tier ability or being.

A being on a higher tier than reinhard who has the power to 'never miss' would overpower reinhards 'always makes enemies miss' power, to suggest otherwise is to claim that there is 'no limit' to the power of reinhards hax - that even an omnipotent being could not land a hit against him. Such a claim is clearly rediculous, there is obviously some level of power above reinhard who would be able to overpower his blessings. Hence, 'no limit fallacy'.

The most obvious answer to DT's question is, the profile probably has not had enough attention yet for someone to notice this large stack of NLFs and attempt to quantify how effective they actually are.

Pretty much what you said his abilities if taken literally are nlf's as to say they have no limits would be such a thing and clearly anyone who has abilities such as reality warping,causality manipulation,conceptual manipulation,probability manipulation etc can get through his blessings as to say otherwise would be a an nlf and he can't beat anyone above his tier because he doesn't have any durability bypassing abilities so while he is broken he has clear limits though.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Ok so i have asked a ln reader about reinhards blessings and this is what he told me

"Blessings are not flawless. There are some blessings that are rather ineffective because another blessing already covers that aspect. Also a stronger blessing with an opposite effect can negate the effect of your blessing.
Like for example someone has the blessing that the first strike is always a hit and the blessings is stronger than Reinhard's first attack immunity then the attack will succeed.
That's one reason why relying on blessings is a gamble.
When Reinhard fought against Theresia from whom he inherited the first attack immunity he broke through her blessing with his first strike guarantee.
So yeah there are ways to circumvent them "

 

[GreatestSin]

^isnt that basically "my hax is stronger than your hax"? but we cant really quantify stuff like tatsuyas right or the "never hits me" blessing if they never showed signs of a upper limit

i would say we take durability and assume that their hax also has that lvl,

by that i would revise my opinion: R1 goes to tatsuya due to demon right > blessing with 100/100 times, but R2 is reinhards win 100/100 times due to blessings > any of tatsuyas hax...

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

It's pretty common to assume that someones hax can be overpowered by someone with related hax and greater ap.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, in tatsuyas case we actually know the mechanics behind his abilities and because of that can gauge the limits.

NLF is mostly a problem if the meachanics aren't known. For example an undodgeable attack can archieve this effect through various mechanics and it depends on how its done with which abilities or possibly even just with which speed stat that can be overcome.

As long as we don't know something like that it is best to assume that things work as high as shown.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

^ So for example with reinhards 'first attack always hits' we would only put it at the level of the fastest enemy who it was shown to work on, 'enemy attacks always miss' only protects from the fastest attacks and the largest aoe it was shown to protect from so far, things like that right?

 

[Gemmysaur]

I messaged Ant regarding how we would tackle NLFs 10 or so minutes ago. I'm waiting for a reply atm so maybe I'd come back to this tomorrow.

 

[Gemmysaur]

About NLF:

For the profile just write down what the stated effect and observed mechanics are (if mechanics were observed). For the stated effects it's good to make clear that those parts were how it was described in the verse. Like that every reader can judge by himself the extent to which this should be assumed to hold.

For battles go with what the mechanics imply and if that is unknown by the best shown feat or by specific believable statements to which extent that should work.

This is what DontTalk said and going by this, we go by the best shown feat of Reinhard's abilities, which is telepathically swatting a projectile aside (the boob assassin's blade), which is a farcry from Onii-sama's killing stuff in another dimension entirely.

About verse equal:

Read this page. Basically it goes by what is stated by op or what is believed to be the fairest assumption if it isn't obvious. Because of the vast differences in the concepts behind different powers in verses it is too hard to do a generalized approach and since we foremost are a character indexing wiki we don't bother too much with having overly detailed rules about such things.


This probably means that for this battle, everything is equalized since nothing more is stated in that regard (blessings and innate magic).

About the effect:

Go by what the mechanic of Reinhard's ability implies. If it's just telekinesis diverting the path of approaching objects, then without further feats it should not be assumed to affect things travelling through the information dimension, because that is outside of the abilities demonstrated reach.

As said, Onii-sama oneshots.

Now, as for how Resurrection interacts with getting Reinhard's idea deleted...

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So again i was asking more questions about how literal blessings are to be taken and if for example someone decided to blow up the entire city along with reinhard this is what i got from a ln reader:

"It's a magic that people are blessed with at birth. It's good to take it literally, a blessing. If this attack isn't using a blessing that attacks everyone in a certain radius or if there is a blessing but it isn't stronger than Reinhard's then it would not affect him.
Blessings have a higher priority than magic.
If someone has a blessing that gives the person resistance to fire magic then this fire magic can be as strong as it want to be, it won't be able to break the effect of a blessing.
That's why blessings in general are extremely rare. Having one is already rare ( Elsa was surprised how Felt had the blessing of wind ). Having two is prodigy level.
Reinhard has more than 100 and he has a blessing that gives him blessings depending on the situation".

I am getting jojo vibes from this like only stands can beat stands vibes, so basically if you have a blessing that gives you resistance to something for example and someone else doesn't then the other person can't affect you, yea sounding real nlf. Basically it sounds to me like it comes down to just how strong is the thing that is blessing them otherwise we will just have to go with what's the strongest it's worked on i guess.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

All that really means is that, in the mechanics of the re zero verse, blessings trump all the methods of magic they have access to there. With the 'stronger blessing' thing, it already demonstrates that blessings are not absolute things with no limit, they can be overpowered. They happen to be stronger than their verse's magic system, but not necessarily stronger than other fictional magic or powers or the abilities of higher tier characters.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yea pretty much