Swords Versus Kicks (Pre-Timeskip Asta vs Adventure Arc Mori Jin) (0-2-0)

[SeijiSetto]

Mori Jin (Adventure Arc)
vs
Asta (Eye of The Midnight Sun)
​

Mori scales above 2.22 Megatons.
Asta scales above 8.83 Megatons.
Speed equalised.
Monkey King Mode is restricted.
Both are in-character but willing to win by any means necessary.
Starting distance of 5 metres.
Battle takes place on Angel Island.

Monkey-Man Mori: 2 (@Lugh_Tuathe_Dé, @Duedate8898)
Mana-less Muscle-Man: 0

 

[azontr]

The fog is coming the fog is coming the fog is coming the fog is coming the fog is coming the fog is coming the fog is coming

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Smh

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

So Mori literally ignores Asta resistance to precog/analytical prediction, inflicts death and gg

Stomp

 

[SeijiSetto]

So Mori literally ignores Asta resistance to precog/analytical prediction, inflicts death and gg

Stomp

He doesn't use the death manip in character, even when bloodlusted. The only person who ever has is a clone of him who acts completely differently, and even then he didn't actually use it, there's a whole story behind it.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

He doesn't use the death manip in character, even when bloodlusted. The only person who ever has is a clone of him who acts completely differently, and even then he didn't actually use it, there's a whole story behind it.

Ok, then it could be fair, I will read his page again and wait for arguments

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Oh wait the keys are merged so Asta now has everything up to Vetto

 

[Arnoldstone18]

What are Mori’s starting moves and I guess haxes?

 

[SeijiSetto]

What are Mori’s starting moves and I guess haxes?

Info Analysis into kicking the shit out of his opponent if he comes to the conclusion that he can do so without immediately dying.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Info Analysis into kicking the shit out of his opponent if he comes to the conclusion that he can do so without immediately dying.

In response, Asta has his swords and Ki to predict his moves I guess. Asta should get by with his instinctive reactions, damage reduction, accelerated development (speed, power and skill based) and creativity.

So what’s next.

 

[azontr]

Asta has his swords and Ki to predict his moves I guess.

Not much of an issue. Mori himself has adapted to people who know his fighting style better than he does and can predict and counter all of his moves.

Asta should get by with his instinctive reactions

Mori has that to.

damage reduction

How does it work?

accelerated development (speed, power and skill based)

Mori has this as well.

and creativity.

Can you elaborate, please?

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

How does it work?

He as a 7-B could reduce damage from a high 7-A to the point that he did not die, he even tanked the attack

Kiato did the same, Asta copied this skill from him

 

[azontr]

He as a 7-B could reduce damage from a high 7-A to the point that he did not die, he even tanked the attack

Kiato did the same, Asta copied this skill from him

Could Mori not just copy it himself?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Well I didn’t say those things would give him an edge, I just said he will get by with them . I know he has those too.

Not much of an issue. Mori himself has adapted to people who know his fighting style better than he does and can predict and counter all of his moves.

Doesn’t he adapt with his AD? I mean He can simply does things they are not aware he could do? Or has he adapted to those who have precognition before?

Because That seems to me like him countering knowledge based prediction not precognition via life force energy readings.

Can you elaborate, please?

Mori has that too..

How does it work?

Asta copied Kiato’s skill granting him this and the ability to throw off Mori’s senses with his own moves. These moves are also instinctive cuz it requires Asta’s mind to be else where and it’s kinda easy for him considering he already has IR.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

If both starts copying each other this is gonna end as inconclusive

 

[azontr]

Well I didn’t say those things would give him an edge, I just said he will get by with them . I know he has those

Sorry, I just respond to shit on instinct. Didn't mean to cause frustration.

Doesn’t he adapt with his AD? I mean He can simply does things they are not aware he could do? Or has he adapted to those who have precognition before?

Because That seems to me like him countering knowledge based prediction not precognition via life force energy readings.

The point isn't the form of prediction but that Mori can fight effectively even while being predicted, so Asta will know Mori's movements via Ki but it's not going to hamper Mori as much as one might believe.

Mori has that too..

Creativity? Well, yeah, he does have that, but I'm asking how creative Asta is.

Asta copied Kiato’s skill granting him this and the ability to throw off Mori’s senses with his own moves. These moves are also instinctive cuz it requires Asta’s mind to be else where and it’s kinda easy for him considering he already has IR.

So the technique requires you to not be thinking? Mori can do that since he can sometimes faster than he can think.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Sorry, I just respond to shit on instinct. Didn't mean to cause frustration.

No p

The point isn't the form of prediction but that Mori can fight effectively even while being predicted, so Asta will know Mori's movements via Ki but it's not going to hamper Mori as much as one might believe.

What fight did he do this again?

Creativity? Well, yeah, he does have that, but I'm asking how creative Asta is.

will get back to you on that I’m cooking rn. Need lunch .

So the technique requires you to not be thinking? Mori can do that since he can sometimes faster than he can think.

I mean yeah, instinctive reactions is kind of a pseudo speed boost. Since the time it takes to think and act is ignored. I guess Mori can steal that technique from Asta too.

 

[azontr]

What fight did he do this again?

When he fought Ilpyo. Fight starts at chapter 81.

will get back to you on that I’m cooking rn. Need lunch .

Eat well.

mean yeah, instinctive reactions is kind of a pseudo speed boost. Since the time it takes to think and act is ignored. I guess Mori can steal that technique from Asta too.

Does Asta use his DR often (Damage reduction)?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Does Asta use his DR often (Damage reduction)?

He incorporates shit he sees from other swordsmen into his fighting style so yeah.

Could Mori not just copy it himself?

dunno, if he had a sword I’d say yeah.

 

[azontr]

dunno, if he had a sword I’d say yeah.

Technically Mori can utilize his own hands as swords (since he can utilize bare-handed sword techniques) so he might be able to do it bare-handed, I'd say.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Technically Mori can utilize his own hands as swords (since he can utilize bare-handed sword techniques) so he might be able to do it bare-handed, I'd say.

I guess we can consider that

Creativity? Well, yeah, he does have that, but I'm asking how creative Asta is.

Simply put Asta can creatively get out of situations and even make up a new move of his own to deal with threats quicker. Then he incorporates these moves into his fighting style. And I know Mori can do something similar. Only difference is Asta’s more on the rough side while Mori is more aesthetically pleasing to look at but they both work.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Idunno if backscaling like this is valid, but Mori Dan's first key who is basically Mori Jin but 17 years out of practice in regards to martial arts and with a body so damaged he might as well be crippled was able to close an 8x power gap over the course of a quick fight.

Mori also has an 8x power/speed/dura amp available that he can use whenever, but due to speed equalisation rules he can't win via blitzing.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Ehhh, comparing RPL is really gonna lead to some shithousery.

I’ve debated Asta RPL overcoming a gap many many times stronger in a match against Garou. So I recommend we don’t go down that rabbit hole again. It’s better to say they both have exceptional RPL.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Ehhh, comparing RPL is really gonna lead to some shithousery.

I’ve debated Asta RPL overcoming a gap many many times stronger in a match against Garou. So I recommend we don’t go down that rabbit hole again. It’s better to say they both have exceptional RPL.

I'll say that the AP difference should be basically irrelevant then, since the moment they start tussling it'll disappear for Mori and then they'll grow at a similar rate.

As mentioned above, Asta's Ki won't really be helpful as Mori has already swapped hands with people who know his fighting style better than he does, and also knew what he was gonna do before he does it.

The swords won't be an issue since Barehand Style will allow him to clash with them, and he could also just straight up copy Asta's style and do it better if he needs to.

There's also the fact he has acupuncture, which is basically "I poke you in certain places gg". Can do stuff like paralysis, nerve damage, blocking blood flow. With techniques that give him momentary speed amps capable of blitzing people comparable to him, he should have no difficulty being able to pull that off.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I'll say that the AP difference should be basically irrelevant then, since the moment they start tussling it'll disappear for Mori and then they'll grow at a similar rate.

A 4x difference irrelevant?

I disagree, keep in mind Asta is also growing at a similar (if not better) rate to Mori so it makes no sense for that large of a gap to disappear.

As mentioned above, Asta's Ki won't really be helpful as Mori has already swapped hands with people who know his fighting style better than he does, and also knew what he was gonna do before he does it.

people simply knowing what Mori can and will do is only limited to the amount of knowledge they have on Mori’s skills which can easily be dealth with. It’s also a less effective prediction than Asta’s precognition that lets him know anything that’s to come with the added bonus of reacting to them instinctively.

The swords won't be an issue since Barehand Style will allow him to clash with them, and he could also just straight up copy Asta's style and do it better if he needs to.

been discussed already

Asta will simply improve his own skills and copy Mori’s barehanded sword style with his swords. They’ll just keep adapting to each other. This is implied by the fact the fact that they both have similar abilities.

let’s make the debate more progressive.

There's also the fact he has acupuncture, which is basically "I poke you in certain places gg". Can do stuff like paralysis, nerve damage, blocking blood flow. With techniques that give him momentary speed amps capable of blitzing people comparable to him, he should have no difficulty being able to pull that off.

I’d like to focus my attention on this now. Elaborate on what these speed amps techniques are.

Asta has the endurance and the RPL to overcome the Amp. As he did when a suppressed Vetto could overwhelm him initially and Asta could match a far more serious one. Asta could also overcome a precog blitz on two tries against Magna in the exhibition tournament arc.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

people simply knowing what Mori can and will do is only limited to the amount of knowledge they have on Mori’s skills which can easily be dealth with. It’s also a less effective prediction than Asta’s precognition that lets him know anything that’s to come with the added bonus of reacting to them instinctively.

Having re-read the fight against llypo, I learnt that I was right. Mori simply used moves outside llpyo’s knowledge and llypo analytical predictions via physical touch is ass compared to Asta’s precognition

 

[SeijiSetto]

I’d like to focus my attention on this now. Elaborate on what these speed amps techniques are.

There's no catch or anything to it. It's called Bo-Bup, it lets him briefly amp his speed to the point he can blitz people who were formerly comparable.

People simply knowing what Mori can and will do is only limited to the amount of knowledge they have on Mori’s skills which can easily be dealth with. It’s also a less effective prediction than Asta’s precognition that lets him know anything that’s to come with the added bonus of reacting to them instinctively.

In terms of skill, Mori > Daewi > Seungcheol.

Seungcheol is a character who can look at the traces of the ground after a huge battle that altered the landscape and perfectly recreate the entire thing in his head, along with what skills were used and any issues the fighters may have had (fighters who, IIRC, he's never seen before mind you) just by standing and glancing at the battlefield where it happened.

Seungcheol lost to Daewi in a fight once Daewi actually started trying (s being nice, earlier in the fight Seungcheol slipped while attacking and Daewi tanked it so he could offer him a hand).

Mori is above Daewi in terms of skill for being able to tank a one-shotting attack he's never seen before, immediately devise a counter to it, then tank the same attack again and then spontaneously invent an objectively better version. For reference, at this point, the attack in question (Wave of Blue Dragon) requires 3 moves to set up for it. Mori, having only seen it twice at this point, makes his own version that he can do immediately with no setup after just seeing it.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

There's no catch or anything to it.

I mean I wanted this debate to be progressive that’s why I said I wanted to focus my attention on that cuz it looked like new information.

Will read the rest after gym

 

[azontr]

I took a short ass nap and this debate already gone off the rails, what happened

 

[Arnoldstone18]

In terms of skill, Mori > Daewi > Seungcheol.

Seungcheol is a character who can look at the traces of the ground after a huge battle that altered the landscape and perfectly recreate the entire thing in his head, along with what skills were used and any issues the fighters may have had (fighters who, IIRC, he's never seen before mind you) just by standing and glancing at the battlefield where it happened.

Seungcheol lost to Daewi in a fight once Daewi actually started trying (s being nice, earlier in the fight Seungcheol slipped while attacking and Daewi tanked it so he could offer him a hand).

Mori is above Daewi in terms of skill for being able to tank a one-shotting attack he's never seen before, immediately devise a counter to it, then tank the same attack again and then spontaneously invent an objectively better version. For reference, at this point, the attack in question (Wave of Blue Dragon) requires 3 moves to set up for it. Mori, having only seen it twice at this point, makes his own version that he can do immediately with no setup after just seeing it.

I glanced through this,

but what does this have to do with Mori being able to adapt to Asta’s precognition? I said Mori just used new moves and tricks that llypo has no knowledge of to make himself unpredictable to Ilypo. Asta’s precognition is far different and even better than Ilypo mechanics wise so the same thing won’t apply here because Asta can’t even be tricked here.

or were you changing topic? I don’t mind if you were but just wanted to clarify we are on the same page.

 

[azontr]

Mori just used new moves and tricks that llypo has no knowledge of to make himself unpredictable to Ilypo.

No, he did not. Ilpyo was still well aware of Mori's capabilities throughout the fight, he was actively training Mori because he was aware of them.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I took a short ass nap and this debate already gone off the rails, what happened

I read that chapter btw. I was right it was knowledge based precog which can be bypassed with tricks and entirely new movesets that the opponent has no knowledge of or has no way to counter. Asta doesn’t have that type of precog so itll be impossible to adapt to his with his feats thus far cuz Asta doesn’t have that limitation, he can’t even be tricked unless his concentration is broken which is kinda difficult without constantly putting him on the edge.

No, he did not. Ilpyo was still well aware of Mori's capabilities throughout the fight, he was actively training Mori because he was aware of them.

Yes because Ilypo can predict muscles through physical touch so he knows what move about to happen and what the move actually is but he admitted that one of his moves he hadn’t fully master nor found a way to neutralize so he can’t do squat even if he knows what the move is gonna be. Asta on the other hand just reads Mori’s life force to predict him and just blocks where Mori wants to land his hits instinctively. Asta doesn’t have any knowledge or skill based limitation. So unless Mori has the skill to even adapt something like this I doubt he can avoid his moves being predicted.

 

[azontr]

read that chapter btw. I was right it was knowledge based precog which can be bypassed with tricks and entirely new movesets that the opponent has no knowledge of or has no way to counter. Asta doesn’t have that type of precog so itll be impossible to adapt to his with his feats thus far cuz Asta doesn’t have that limitation, he can’t even be tricked unless his concentration is broken.

Okay but when did I ever say that Mori would suddenly adapt to resist life force based sensing??

I said that Mori can fight even with his movements predicted so that regardless of the FORM of precog he can still fight effectively, not that he will literally negate Asta's precognition. That's straight-up just NOT what I said.

Yes because Ilypo can predict muscles through physical touch so he knows what move about to happen and what the move actually is but he admitted that one of his moves he hadn’t fully master nor found a way to neutralize so he can’t do squat even if he knows what the move is gonna be. Asta on the other hand just reads Mori’s life force to predict him and just blocks where Mori wants to land his hits instinctively. Asta doesn’t have any knowledge or skill based limitation. So unless Mori has the skill to even adapt something like this I doubt he can avoid his moves being predicted.

I literally never said Mori would never have his moves predicted.

point isn't the form of prediction but that Mori can fight effectively even while being predicted, so Asta will know Mori's movements via Ki but it's not going to hamper Mori as much as one might believe.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Oh okay then… my bad.

I mean he could still literally keep fighting but how would he deal any real damage to Asta blocking him?

 

[azontr]

By hitting him lol.

Asta will know Mori's movements but again that's not going to keep him from being hit (as shown with Ilpyo or Seungcheol), since Mori can fight just fine even while his movements are known by the enemy just with sheer skill.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

By hitting him lol.

Asta will know Mori's movements but again that's not going to keep him from being hit (as shown with Ilpyo or Seungcheol), since Mori can fight just fine even while his movements are known by the enemy just with sheer skill.

I mean Ilypo didn’t have a sword so he was technically getting hit… There we’re even times Ilypo would let himself get hit sl a counter attack could be landed too..

Asta on the other hand has a big ass sword that he can easily maneuver and use as a shield. So it’s not gonna be the same case here.

 

[azontr]

I mean Ilypo didn’t have a sword so he was technically getting hit… There we’re even times Ilypo would let himself get hit sl a counter attack could be landed too..

Asta on the other hand has a big ass sword that he can easily maneuver and use as a shield. So it’s not gonna be the same case here.

Ilpyo wasnt allowing himself to be hit, because if he was there'd be no point in training Mori. Can you explain where you got the idea Ilpyo was allowing Mori to hit him?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Ilpyo wasnt allowing himself to be hit, because if he was there'd be no point in training Mori. Can you explain where you got the idea Ilpyo was allowing Mori to hit him?

literally at the start of the whole fight he knew kicks were coming and just used it as an opportunity to land a counter attacks. It was only after Mori noticed his moves were read was Ilypo just neutralizing following attacks which also meant they’re both technically hitting each other in the process.

Wether the initial stages was for building up the plot point that their evenly matches, idk and idrc, but even after that they were still technically hitting each other.

 

[azontr]

literally at the start of the whole fight he knew kicks were coming and just used it as an opportunity to land a counter attacks. It was only after Mori noticed his moves were read was Ilypo just neutralizing following attacks which also meant they’re both technically hitting each other in the process.

The beginning of the fight wasn't Mori being allowed to hit Ilpyo, it was Mori catching Ilpyo off guard for a few moments to get some attacks in. There's nothing insinuating Ilpyo "let" Mori hit him at the beginning of the fight bar conjecture.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The beginning of the fight wasn't Mori being allowed to hit Ilpyo, it was Mori catching Ilpyo off guard for a few moments to get some attacks in. There's nothing insinuating Ilpyo "let" Mori hit him at the beginning of the fight bar conjecture.

If you see it that way then it’s cool but keep in mind you did say he was training Mori and he did predict Mori in fee of those attacks he was getting in but that’s not my overall point anyway.

The point: Asta has a shield